Who invented the Submariner "Look"??

[Tri-National-Man]

Hi everyone, as we all know, the classic look of a Rolex Submariner has been copied a million times... my question is who actually pioneered that look of a diving watch equipped with a rotating bezel to record elasped time?...The Submariner was available in 1953/54. The Blancpain Fifty Fathoms was released in 1953... Please discuss and post pics of similar dive type watches pre 1953...

[rolexnovice]

I thought the Sub we all know and love was patterned after the Fifty Fathoms. This is a good question.

[RolexPete32]

I heard it was not Rolex but another watch producer. I am sure an expert will be along shortly to set the record stright.

An expert would be Patty or Jocky or JJ or sombody else with 17 thousand plus posts.

[Hansch99]

If the Fifty Fathoms and Sub both came out in the same year (or close), and if Rolex spent any time at all designing, testing, and manufacturing the Sub dial, it'd be hard to say Blancpain invented the design even if it beat the Sub to market.

[tifosi]

If the Fifty Fathoms and Sub both came out in the same year (or close), and if Rolex spent any time at all designing, testing, and manufacturing the Sub dial, it'd be hard to say Blancpain invented the design even if it beat the Sub to market.

Good point.
I know there is an ISO standard for dive watches, but I don't know how long that has been in place. If there was a set of guidelines to design by, that could explain the similarities.

[Rogue884]

From what I have read on the matter, I am no expert, just some decent Google-fu. The Omega SA Marine was the first dive watch. It was introduced in 1932, then the Panerai/ Rolex collaboration for the Italian Navy in the 1930's was next in its evolution. During WWII, there were several companies making limited production runs for military units, and most of these were canteen style watches by Hamilton, Elgin, and Waltham. Then Blancpain came out with the 50 fathom in 1953 for the French Navy. I believe it was actually marketed by LIP when it was released tothe public. There use to be a great Blancpain website out there with the historical, but I can't find it anywhere. The Submariner was released at the 1954 Basel Fair. Considering the close proximity of their release to each other, I don't think its fair to assume that one copied the other. Though there seems to be a lack of information regarding the first watch to have a rotating bezel.

An interesting claim that I have seen through my Google-FU is the coincidence between the release of the Submariner and SCUBA in 1954. I am a bit of a diving nut, so this I do know. The interesting part is that the first incarnation of SCUBA was actually invented in 1923 by Charles "Swede" Momsen, and was known as the Momsen Lung. Probably one of Idles Swede's family :chuckle: It was actually closer to a modern day rebreather than OC SCUBA. It used a counter lung with soda lime as a scrubber, and used for submarine egress. The Brits also had a similar device It was then tinkered with by a French Navy man, Yves le Prieur, who made it closer to actual OC SCUBA for recreational uses. It was a constant pressure system. They even created the first diving club in France using it in the 1920's. There is no was no collaboration between Jacque Yves Cousteau and Yves le Prieur, however Cousteau used the fundamentals for his commercially marketed version in 1943, almost 20 years later and utilizing a demand regulator. What we know today as the "Aqualung."

[R1@160@alltimes]

Here you go http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=52914

[Rogue884]

That takes us back to the original question, who was first? FF was developed in 1953 for the French Navy, and the 6202 and 6204 were released the same year to the public. All with rotating bezels. Chicken or the egg :twit:

[The GMT Master]

Well, the Submariner did feature in an underwater documentary in 1953, prior to the watch's original release, as well as the Deep Sea Special making it's first appearance. These watches would have been developed for quite some time, so I really think it was just two different approaches resulting in very similar outcomes :cheers:

[Tools]

....... Myths and old wives tales...

Mostly it's FF owners who fight this continuous petty battle..

The Sub was fashioned after the Rolex Turn-O-Graph, available in '53, as was the Sub..

Most of the claims are always based on the fact that Rolex didn't "present" the Sub until the 1954 Basil Watch Fair.. which is true; but it was in production much earlier than that

You see, the original Subs were not labeled Submariner back in '53 or earlier. It was blacked out because of some issues with being able to trademark the name "Submariner".. Rolex also thought the Turn-O-Graph, presented as the "businessman's" watch because he could time meetings, meters, and other needs, would be the big seller.. However, it was the Sub that took off and became the icon..

Since Rolex had a number of models with the rotating bezel.. and the screw-down Oyster crown, which had been in use by Rolex for 25 years already; one really needs to look at the FF and wonder, where did they get their ideas from..

Not only that ... A Rolex is still a Rolex.

A Blancpain FF is now a Swatch..

[Polemic]

....... Myths and old wives tales...

Mostly it's FF owners who fight this continuous petty battle..

The Sub was fashioned after the Rolex Turn-O-Graph, available in '53, as was the Sub..

Most of the claims are always based on the fact that Rolex didn't "present" the Sub until the 1954 Basil Watch Fair.. which is true; but it was in production much earlier than that

You see, the original Subs were not labeled Submariner back in '53 or earlier. It was blacked out because of some issues with being able to trademark the name "Submariner".. Rolex also thought the Turn-O-Graph, presented as the "businessman's" watch because he could time meetings, meters, and other needs, would be the big seller.. However, it was the Sub that took off and became the icon..

Since Rolex had a number of models with the rotating bezel.. and the screw-down Oyster crown, which had been in use by Rolex for 25 years already; one really needs to look at the FF and wonder, where did they get their ideas from..

Not only that ... A Rolex is still a Rolex.

A Blancpain FF is now a Swatch..

Funny.

[austinnh]

I wonder who invented the traditional sub dial with a triangle at 12, sticks at 3,6,9, and circles everywhere else. Was that a Rolex original or did they copy that from somewhere else?

[Rogue884]

I wonder who invented the traditional sub dial with a triangle at 12, sticks at 3,6,9, and circles everywhere else. Was that a Rolex original or did they copy that from somewhere else?

Thats easy, Rolex, right along with the "Mercedes" hands. all original to the MilSub .

FF is now a SWATCH :dummy::dummy::dummy: I love it, for that matter, so is Breguet, Omega, Longines, and Glashutte.

Oh yea, and so is RADO :bartmoon::bartmoon: Thats for JJ

[Check]

Great info!

[Mockingbird]

This is actually a tough question. While many may say that the FF predates the Sub, but it's by such a small margin of time, that Rolex couldn't have stolen the design.

It was most likely just a coincidence, without having further knowledge I would call it a tie.

[Michael M.]

The submariner design came from the 6202 turn-o-graph, but I don't know were the 6202 design came from.(not my pic)
http://media.photobucket.com/image/rolex%206202/RolexEnthusiast/20102/DSC07728.jpg

[TempoKing]

I do not think Rolex cared what Blancpain was doing

Six months before the Basel fair Prof. A. Piccard and his son
Jacques with their bathyscaph went down to 10.335 feet
with what was really the first Sub attached outside the bathyscaph.
Wilsdorf was elated...So thats how Ref 6204 was born.

[HL65]

The Submariner was invented by the late great Swiss inventor Franz Submarine'r. He was born in a small village outside of Geneva in 1887. He later went on to start a small chocolate company-Godiva- after his years as a master watchmaker and inventor. He died in 1977 living to the ripe old age of 90. If you google you will find it although was not easy to get to this little unknown nugget of history!!!

[Davvan]

It´s quite a statement that BP is now a swatch....and I hope that Tools wrote that with some kind of irony in mind :cheers:. I know that this is a ROLEX forum but it´s plain mean to take away the history of the BP brand...and equate it with a plactic watch.....IMHO

I own both a 1680 and a BP FF...love em both...but the FF is just a tad more interesting to wear.

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm278/davvan75/IMG_5063.jpg

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm278/davvan75/IMG_2958.jpg

[Shade]

Interesting to know godiva has something to do with rolex!

[exxondus]

It´s quite a statement that BP is now a swatch....and I hope that Tools wrote that with some kind of irony in mind :cheers:. I know that this is a ROLEX forum but it´s plain mean to take away the history of the BP brand...and equate it with a plactic watch.....IMHO

I own both a 1680 and a BP FF...love em both...but the FF is just a tad more interesting to wear.



What that post meant is that BP is under the SWATCH umbrella, but rolex is still standing on its own 2 feet.

Its more of a play of words, not literally comparing it with the plastic swatch watch.

[padi56]

Around 1924, the company named RWC now Rolex,launched the first trademarked "Submarine",a water resistant wristwatch.As we all should know the biggest enemy of any watch is water.And without proper seals etc
even on a warm day the crystal could mist up on wrist when worn.
Now old Hans Wilsdorf was a clever man,and wanted to increase sales worldwide and especially in tropical climates.So he tried to make a watch that was waterproof,now the evolution of the oyster case was started.His idea was very simple,he would fit a case inside a case,and he called it the Submarine.Now this worked,but had certain drawbacks you had to open the case to wind it,and the outer case had a threaded screw on bezel to protect the watch.This was not very user owner friendly and caused wear on the hinges and bezel threads.So he started to look for a new idea for a waterproof wrist watch.

So later in 1925 he heard that two watchmakers one was Paul Perregaux other Perrolet they had taken out a swiss patent for a twin lock screwed stem system crown.Now Hans Wilsdorf of Rolex grasped that a hermetically sealed case, together with careful fitting of the crystal and a special stem mechanism, would produce a better water proof wristwatch.He quickly negotiated to have the Perregaux patent assigned to him. Wilsdorf then obtained a British patent on October 18 1926.And then soon after the Rolex Oyster was born and became a commercial success.. In 1927, a stenographer, Mercedes Gleitze, swam the English Channel with the unheard of accompaniment of a wristwatch –the Rolex Oyster— on her wrist for the entire 15 hour, 15 minute,swim and the rest is Rolex history,and we had to wait 30 odd years for the rebirth,from Submarine, to Submariner.But Whether Blancpain or Rolex had the first dive watch well its swings and roundabouts.



First Rolex Submarine.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a280/padi_56/n025-rolex1-c.jpg

Paul Perregaux patent screwed stem system 1925,which Hans Wilsdorf of Rolex acquired,to make the first oyster cased Rolex.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a280/padi_56/PaulPerregauxandGeorgesPeret.jpg

[ROGERB]

Around 1924, the company named RWC now Rolex,launched the first trademarked "Submarine",a water resistant wristwatch.As we all should know the biggest enemy of any watch is water.And without proper seals etc
even on a warm day the crystal could mist up on wrist when worn.
Now old Hans Wilsdorf was a clever man,and wanted to increase sales worldwide and especially in tropical climates.So he tried to make a watch that was waterproof,now the evolution of the oyster case was started.His idea was very simple,he would fit a case inside a case,and he called it the Submarine.Now this worked,but had certain drawbacks you had to open the case to wind it,and the outer case had a threaded screw on bezel to protect the watch.This was not very user owner friendly and caused wear on the hinges and bezel threads.So he started to look for a new idea for a waterproof wrist watch.

So later in 1925 he heard that two watchmakers one was Paul Perregaux other Perrolet they had taken out a swiss patent for a twin lock screwed stem system crown.Now Hans Wilsdorf of Rolex grasped that a hermetically sealed case, together with careful fitting of the crystal and a special stem mechanism, would produce a better water proof wristwatch.He quickly negotiated to have the Perregaux patent assigned to him. Wilsdorf then obtained a British patent on October 18 1926.And then soon after the Rolex Oyster was born and became a commercial success.. In 1927, a stenographer, Mercedes Gleitze, swam the English Channel with the unheard of accompaniment of a wristwatch –the Rolex Oyster— on her wrist for the entire 15 hour, 15 minute,swim and the rest is Rolex history,and we had to wait 30 odd years for the rebirth,from Submarine, to Submariner.But Whether Blancpain or Rolex had the first dive watch well its swings and roundabouts.



First Rolex Submarine.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a280/padi_56/n025-rolex1-c.jpg

Paul Perregaux patent screwed stem system 1925,which Hans Wilsdorf of Rolex acquired,to make the first oyster cased Rolex.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a280/padi_56/PaulPerregauxandGeorgesPeret.jpg Now that's good stuff:thumbsup:
R

[Watch Professor]

I always learn a great deal on this forum. Thanks all.

[fc3s2k]

I love this forum,
You learn something NEW everyday!!! And I truly appreciate this.

[firstOwatch]

Thanks All for the info about the most iconic watch! :clap:

[RoleXavier]

The reason that Rolex got away with it (the recognition as the best Diver's watch in history), is very simple and has a first and last names:

HANS WILSDORF :cheers:

[rpryan55]

The posts of both Larry (Tools) and Padi56 (both moderators of this forum) have proven, once again, what a terrific forum and wealth of information can be found here. It is why I come here time and again - authoritative voices, well expressed, with amazing insight into Rolex and its history.

Well done, fellows. Thanks.:thumbsup::cheers:

[chazha]

I heard something about a guy named JJ had a pretty big involvement in the initial design.

[Bullyterrier]

Not only that ... A Rolex is still a Rolex.

A Blancpain FF is now a Swatch..


And so is an Omega now....

And they were the first watch on the moon.... Die hard Rolex fans can't get out of that one. :rofl: