Electric Cars....a perspective.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Speedbird-1

Following the invention of rechargeable batteries, Thomas Parker, a British inventor, created the first practical electric car in 1884. Amazingly, the car was not only efficient, but it had the potential to be mass-produced. However, this never came to realization, as the second prototype of Parker’s car sank in the English Channel with the ship carrying it en route to Paris for mass production. However, his car set a precedent for the mass production of electric vehicles in subsequent years.


Notably, the first electric vehicle to enter mass production was designed by William Morrison, who was an American chemist from Iowa, in 1890. His invention was a four-wheeled, six-passenger electric car that could travel at a top speed of 14 miles per hour. Moreover, the car had a driving range of up to 100 miles, which was quite impressive at the time given that today’s EVs can barely surpass the 250-mile mark. Nevertheless, the specifications of the car were comparatively poor by modern standards as its batteries took more than 12 hours to recharge and the motor could only deliver 4bhp of power.

Over the next few years though, Morrison’s invention helped spark interest in EV’s as different automakers ventured into producing their own prototypes. By 1897-1900, electric cars had become common, accounting to 33% of all vehicles on the road. In fact, most taxi services in big cities like New York were electric cars. As demand for these vehicles continued to soar, innovators started exploring ways on how to improve them.
EVS101.Com


They've come a long way.....still a way to go.

Precisely
It's interesting to see how things come in cycles.
With the current rise of battery powered vehicles, I wonder what tech will replace them.
Perhaps Hydrogen technology in some form?
Economies of scale and distribution will be a factor.

Speaking of distribution.
We already have the means with regard to electricity so I can see that the economical aspect will be covered off especially if we can generate enough at home.
But from an environmental aspect, the recycling of solar panels will become much more critical when at or very near their end of life.
Storm damage to panels is another factor which feeds into increased insurance premiums

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Doesn't sound excessive when you keep in mind, how much the hundreds of traditional power plants cost to run?

And yet.
Those traditional power plants are being re-commissioned in some parts of the world that rushed headlong into greener energy sources.
The old stuff is not dead yet when the rubber really hits the road(so to speak).

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Schmed

He's got an older Model S and hinted that he's probably playing it too safe recharging up in Silverthorn.

My neighbor here cannot do Winter Park roundtrip in the winter without a charge on his older X and is nervous even in the summer. Some people we know with Rivian's have been okay but added chargers to their mountain home just in case.

It seems like 300 range estimate can be cut by 40% in cold weather and the added burden of going up and over Berthoud (or Vail) has made us wait a few more years to buy an EV. We were considering an IX but ended up putting a deposit down for a 2024 Lexus GX gas guzzler.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Schmed

We put in a wood stove a few years back. With the cost/installation/collecting wood/splitting wood/renting splitter/(and future back surgery)..... I'm looking at a 30 year payback. Maybe. but... sure is comfy in my living room!

That's why pellet stoves are so wonderful.

[Maleg]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

That's why pellet stoves are so wonderful.

The pellet stove in my hunting camp burns corn. Five bucks worth of corn lasts for a week.

[uscmatt99]

Plug-in hybrid works well for us, we have an Audi q5e (4-cyl ICE in addition to the battery). I get around 30 miles of EV range on a charge, but have available between 400-450 miles of total range when the battery and gas tank are full. The bulk of my driving is short city trips and commutes and I plug back in once I get home. I've also done a short road trip and didn't need to go through the hassle of charging while I was away from home.

For my driving habits, I've filled the tank probably 4 times during my entire ownership, and my tank is now 3/4 full. Total mileage is almost 1500 miles. When I am in hybrid mode, I average 50 mpg on the ICE, but all of my city driving is purely on battery power.

One of the perks of the PHEV I hadn't thought of, but love, is that I can use the app to warm up the car and steering wheel while it's plugged in. It uses wall energy for the heat pump to get the car to temperature and lets me know when it's toasty. And now I can do this without running the engine in the garage and inhaling fumes.

Initially I'd wanted a full EV, but this has worked out really well for us. If my commute were ever to lengthen and we needed a second car for my wife, I'd probably get a full EV for that, and use the current one for the occasional road trip.

[srvrf]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

Plug-in hybrid works well for us, we have an Audi q5e (4-cyl ICE in addition to the battery). I get around 30 miles of EV range on a charge, but have available between 400-450 miles of total range when the battery and gas tank are full. The bulk of my driving is short city trips and commutes and I plug back in once I get home. I've also done a short road trip and didn't need to go through the hassle of charging while I was away from home.

For my driving habits, I've filled the tank probably 4 times during my entire ownership, and my tank is now 3/4 full. Total mileage is almost 1500 miles. When I am in hybrid mode, I average 50 mpg on the ICE, but all of my city driving is purely on battery power.

One of the perks of the PHEV I hadn't thought of, but love, is that I can use the app to warm up the car and steering wheel while it's plugged in. It uses wall energy for the heat pump to get the car to temperature and lets me know when it's toasty. And now I can do this without running the engine in the garage and inhaling fumes.

Initially I'd wanted a full EV, but this has worked out really well for us. If my commute were ever to lengthen and we needed a second car for my wife, I'd probably get a full EV for that, and use the current one for the occasional road trip.

I love my EV but have an ICE car as backup. I agree that for most people, it would seem that a PHEV would be the best of both worlds. For daily commutes under say 30 miles, just use electric and because the battery is smaller, you can top off at home overnight. When it is time to take a road trip, put it in hybrid mode and drive off without worries about occupied fast chargers or chargers that simply don't work.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I have a hard time doing big math, but here’s my personal experience:

We have a 20 panel solar system for our home. It generates enough to power our home for the entire year (roughly 10,000 KW). I’m located in Ontario Canada where we have varied weather.

When the company who sold us the system and installed it assessed our power usage, they determined we used 1/3 of the power to charge our PHEV. The cost per month was about $50, but now that we have the solar panels, it’s free.

The system cost just under $15000. So the pay back for is about 8.5 years.

Last, it’s a net metering type system, which means we don’t have batteries and store the power, but rather, we send the power back to the grid for a credit against our bill.

All that is to say, the EV makes sense for us purely from an economic standpoint.

Hi Brian,

Can you give me more details as to how 20 solar panels can generate 10000kW each year.
That seem very efficient.
We get a lot of sun in South Oz and on really good day my 3kW system produces 8 -10 kW’s but most days it’s about 3 - 6.
Mine is also all back to the grid at 0.55c/ kW. Fixed for 25 years with about 15 to go.
Not a bad return but nothing like yours.

E.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Andad

Hi Brian,

Can you give me more details as to how 20 solar panels can generate 10000kW each year.
That seem very efficient.
We get a lot of sun in South Oz and on really good day my 3kW system produces 8 -10 kW’s but most days it’s about 3 - 6.
Mine is also all back to the grid at 0.55c/ kW. Fixed for 25 years with about 15 to go.
Not a bad return but nothing like yours.

E.

Hi Eddie, I hope this information helps.

Basically, the company we used calculated our electric usage from previous 3 years of our local hydro utility consumption and averaged that into designing a system that would in the end, net zero on our bill.






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[brandrea]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

Plug-in hybrid works well for us, we have an Audi q5e (4-cyl ICE in addition to the battery). I get around 30 miles of EV range on a charge, but have available between 400-450 miles of total range when the battery and gas tank are full. The bulk of my driving is short city trips and commutes and I plug back in once I get home. I've also done a short road trip and didn't need to go through the hassle of charging while I was away from home.

For my driving habits, I've filled the tank probably 4 times during my entire ownership, and my tank is now 3/4 full. Total mileage is almost 1500 miles. When I am in hybrid mode, I average 50 mpg on the ICE, but all of my city driving is purely on battery power.

One of the perks of the PHEV I hadn't thought of, but love, is that I can use the app to warm up the car and steering wheel while it's plugged in. It uses wall energy for the heat pump to get the car to temperature and lets me know when it's toasty. And now I can do this without running the engine in the garage and inhaling fumes.

Initially I'd wanted a full EV, but this has worked out really well for us. If my commute were ever to lengthen and we needed a second car for my wife, I'd probably get a full EV for that, and use the current one for the occasional road trip.

Exact same experience here I took delivery of RAv4 Prime last week and the PHEV range is just perfect for my usage. We had a cold snap last week -8C and I got 55km EV of range out of it.

I recon I’ll maybe use 5 or 6 tanks of gas in a year (if I have to drive somewhere further away). It’s peace of mind knowing that the ICE is there if needed.

I also enjoy the preconditioning aspect too

Last, I think it’s interesting to note that Toyota hasn’t gone full bore into EV vehicles. They’ve been doing PHEV and HV probably longer than anyone. Maybe they know something the others don’t.

[BillA]

I am on my 2nd EV. I do hear and understand the objections to buying them. I have a long range Tesla model 3, about 350 mile range, so they say, probably much less. Right now Tesla is the only EV to buy, if, you are planning to use it on trips. Their charging network is installed and maintained by Tesla. I look at other systems in public areas, many of them broken and have not been fixed in a while.
Does it take longer to charge a battery than fill a car with gas? Yes it does. But what is your rush? Don’t you like the smell of the truck fumes on the NJ Turnpike or the smell of the Sunoco gas at the gas stations? Just charge overnight if you have a level 2 charger or even a trickle charge helps.
Is it better for the environment? Maybe. The electricity you put in your car comes from something a company is burning. Perhaps when wind or solar is in the majority, people will change their minds, but I do really understand the objection to EV’s.

[Krash]

Originally Posted by BillA

Does it take longer to charge a battery than fill a car with gas? Yes it does. But what is your rush? .

I hate to be brutally honest here, but that is a terrible argument. What if there is a family emergency and you need to be somewhere ASAP?


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[Giovannibravo]

Originally Posted by Krash

I hate to be brutally honest here, but that is a terrible argument. What if there is a family emergency and you need to be somewhere ASAP?


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This is an event which doesn’t occur very often. I understand your point, but what if the gas station is out of gas and you are in a rural community? I would counter that every morning, you wake up with a full battery. I'm getting my Model Y next week. I will post something to spice up the forums after some time with the vehicle.

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by BillA

Does it take longer to charge a battery than fill a car with gas? Yes it does. But what is your rush?

What’s the rush ? I don’t think “rush” has anything to do with, but practicality just might ……………………..

9-12 hours for full charge, according to Tesla’s website.

5-8 MINUTES for full tank of fuel.


So, when I travel to WY in my car, it takes me 32hrs, inclusive of fuel/naps. The same in a Tesla, 6 full charges plus drive time, would be in the neighborhood of 83-102 hrs !

[Krash]

Originally Posted by Giovannibravo

This is an event which doesn’t occur very often. I understand your point, but what if the gas station is out of gas and you are in a rural community? I would counter that every morning, you wake up with a full battery. I'm getting my Model Y next week. I will post something to spice up the forums after some time with the vehicle.

Again, just being brutally honest here. That’s not a good argument. It doesn’t matter if an emergency event happens often or not. It might never happen or only happen once in your entire lifetime. But when it happens, it happens. Getting delayed at some charging station somewhere is totally unacceptable.

From that perspective, an EV is a serious downgrade. It’s like going from first class to coach, but worse.


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[Gourdman]

Originally Posted by DLRIDES

What’s the rush ? I don’t think “rush” has anything to do with, but practicality just might ……………………..

9-12 hours for full charge, according to Tesla’s website.

5-8 MINUTES for full tank of fuel.


So, when I travel to WY in my car, it takes me 32hrs, inclusive of fuel/naps. The same in a Tesla, 6 full charges plus drive time, would be in the neighborhood of 83-102 hrs !

Are you completely ignoring superchargers?


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[Gourdman]

Originally Posted by BillA

I am on my 2nd EV. I do hear and understand the objections to buying them. I have a long range Tesla model 3, about 350 mile range, so they say, probably much less. Right now Tesla is the only EV to buy, if, you are planning to use it on trips. Their charging network is installed and maintained by Tesla. I look at other systems in public areas, many of them broken and have not been fixed in a while.
Does it take longer to charge a battery than fill a car with gas? Yes it does. But what is your rush? Don’t you like the smell of the truck fumes on the NJ Turnpike or the smell of the Sunoco gas at the gas stations? Just charge overnight if you have a level 2 charger or even a trickle charge helps.
Is it better for the environment? Maybe. The electricity you put in your car comes from something a company is burning. Perhaps when wind or solar is in the majority, people will change their minds, but I do really understand the objection to EV’s.

It is willful ignorance to believe that one big ass plant burning fossil fuels to power the grid is less efficient than a bunch of smaller ICE engines doing the same thing to power cars


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[pickettt]

Originally Posted by DLRIDES

What’s the rush ? I don’t think “rush” has anything to do with, but practicality just might ……………………..

9-12 hours for full charge, according to Tesla’s website.

5-8 MINUTES for full tank of fuel.


So, when I travel to WY in my car, it takes me 32hrs, inclusive of fuel/naps. The same in a Tesla, 6 full charges plus drive time, would be in the neighborhood of 83-102 hrs !

It's situational. I promise you spend more time at a gas station than I spend at a charger. On the other hand, I don't travel distances equivalent to your trips to WY often. EVs have their place, and it's not everyplace.

[Giovannibravo]

Originally Posted by Gourdman

It is willful ignorance to believe that one big ass plant burning fossil fuels to power the grid is less efficient than a bunch of smaller ICE engines doing the same thing to power cars


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This is completely dependent on where you live. In Ontario, we are running 80% of the time on clean energy (I.e nuclear and hydro power).

[Giovannibravo]

Originally Posted by Krash

Again, just being brutally honest here. That’s not a good argument. It doesn’t matter if an emergency event happens often or not. It might never happen or only happen once in your entire lifetime. But when it happens, it happens. Getting delayed at some charging station somewhere is totally unacceptable.

From that perspective, an EV is a serious downgrade. It’s like going from first class to coach, but worse.


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This is completely dependent on where you live. In Ontario, we are running 80% of the time on clean energy (I.e nuclear and hydro power).

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by pickettt

It's situational. I promise you spend more time at a gas station than I spend at a charger. On the other hand, I don't travel distances equivalent to your trips to WY often. EVs have their place, and it's not everyplace.

Well said

[Giovannibravo]

Originally Posted by Krash

Again, just being brutally honest here. That’s not a good argument. It doesn’t matter if an emergency event happens often or not. It might never happen or only happen once in your entire lifetime. But when it happens, it happens. Getting delayed at some charging station somewhere is totally unacceptable.

From that perspective, an EV is a serious downgrade. It’s like going from first class to coach, but worse.


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I can understand your point to a certain degree buts it’s a little far fetched. At this point, EVs have politicized heavily. Whether you like it or not they are the future. I would just encourage to Tesla drive the Model S and get back to me.

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by pickettt

I promise you spend more time at a gas station than I spend at a charger.

The ability to fully charge an EV in eight minutes is quite miraculous and revolutionary ! Instead of posting this on a public forum, consider hiring the best patent attorney available, under a type of secrecy contract, some personal security specialists, and plan on being the most wealthy individual in the world. Congratulations !

[Krash]

Originally Posted by Giovannibravo

I can understand your point to a certain degree buts it’s a little far fetched. At this point, EVs have politicized heavily. Whether you like it or not they are the future. I would just encourage to Tesla drive the Model S and get back to me.

It’s not far fetched. It’s real life. I remember getting a call a from sister telling me my mom was passing away and I should drive up ASAP. I’m not going into the backstory of what happened to her. But I had to make an emergency drive up there before she did. I could just imagine having to stop to charge my EV. What a travesty that would have been.


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[Krash]

Originally Posted by pickettt

It's situational. I promise you spend more time at a gas station than I spend at a charger. On the other hand, I don't travel distances equivalent to your trips to WY often. EVs have their place, and it's not everyplace.

My car is 5 years old. I have 21,000 miles on it. That’s about 4,200 miles a year. I literally fill my tank about once a month. Actually, I’m not sure it’s that much it might be closer to once every 2 months. Either way, I don’t spend much time at a gas pump.


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[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Krash

My car is 5 years old. I have 21,000 miles on it. That’s about 4,200 miles a year. I literally fill my tank about once a month. I’m not sure it’s that much it might be closer to once every 2 months.


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I think that’s the point. For you, maybe it doesn’t make sense.

[Maleg]

Originally Posted by Gourdman

It is willful ignorance to believe that one big ass plant burning fossil fuels to power the grid is less efficient than a bunch of smaller ICE engines doing the same thing to power cars


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I don’t understand your point. Both systems have heat loss. Both types of cars have friction loss. Both types of cars overcome inertia. Both types of cars use about the same net energy to do the same motive thing.

But the grid has a significant transmission loss that ICE cars do not. So, EV’s “inherit” the inefficiency of the grid. Not that the driver would notice, but it’s a loss that should be accounted for in an honest comparison of the two systems, and usually is not. It is almost always more efficient to generate energy at point of use.

I have been a Prius driver for twenty years. Each time I look to replace my Prius I look at the possibility of an EV. The concept is very appealing. But using a life cycle analysis of EV vs ICE, EV’s aren’t there yet as an efficient replacement for a Prius. I’ll be buying another Prius this year.

Subtract out the government subsidies imbedded throughout the EV life cycle and an EV becomes a ridiculously expensive system compared to an equivalent ICE. As cost is roughly equivalent to energy in an energy centric system such as the US, the EV is much more energy intensive to resource, manufacture, maintain, recycle, and dispose than an ICE when all costs are included in the evaluation.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by DLRIDES

The ability to fully charge an EV in eight minutes is quite miraculous and revolutionary ! Instead of posting this on a public forum, consider hiring the best patent attorney available, under a type of secrecy contract, some personal security specialists, and plan on being the most wealthy individual in the world. Congratulations !

I think it was missed. I don’t charge my car outside of my home (with 2 exceptions in over 2 years). When I get out of the car, I take 10-15 seconds to plug it up, then go about my day. All opponents to EVs want to make seem as though EV owners spend huge portions of their lives sitting at chargers. Many of us don’t. For those who might…then I’m in your camp. This is why I say it’s situational, everyone’s situation is different.

[Giovannibravo]

Originally Posted by pickettt

I think it was missed. I don’t charge my car outside of my home (with 2 exceptions in over 2 years). When I get out of the car, I take 10-15 seconds to plug it up, then go about my day. All opponents to EVs want to make seem as though EV owners spend huge portions of their lives sitting at chargers. Many of us don’t. For those who might…then I’m in your camp. This is why I say it’s situational, everyone’s situation is different.

I agree with this comment.


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[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by pickettt

I think it was missed. I don’t charge my car outside of my home (with 2 exceptions in over 2 years). When I get out of the car, I take 10-15 seconds to plug it up, then go about my day. All opponents to EVs want to make seem as though EV owners spend huge portions of their lives sitting at chargers. Many of us don’t. For those who might…then I’m in your camp. This is why I say it’s situational, everyone’s situation is different.

THIS was the “situation” and and comment I was responding to, what did I miss ?

“9-12 hours for full charge, according to Tesla’s website.

5-8 MINUTES for full tank of fuel.

So, when I travel to WY in my car, it takes me 32hrs, inclusive of fuel/naps. The same in a Tesla, 6 full charges plus drive time, would be in the neighborhood of 83-102 hrs !”


“It's situational. I promise you spend more time at a gas station than I spend at a charger.”


“The ability to fully charge an EV in eight minutes is quite miraculous and revolutionary ! Instead of posting this on a public forum, consider hiring the best patent attorney available, under a type of secrecy contract, some personal security specialists, and plan on being the most wealthy individual in the world. Congratulations !”


If my reading comprehension skills are at such a severe low level, or greatly inferior to others on this forum, my most sincere apologies in advance.