The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

Have you considered offering it for sale with the proper disclosures? You might get more then $10,000.

Technically, it is still for sale here, with the listing updated to reflect the re-lume.

However, I won't bump it again and don't see any benefit to 1) tying money up in a watch that I now sort of despise. I'm gonna put that money in an SD43 and move on as quickly as possible, with something I like on my wrist.

And, of course, Mike (at Rolliworks) and I had a phone conversation on Friday in which we made an agreement in principle, too. And Mike has more than proven his mettle in all of this; I'm selling Mike the 1680.

[zapokee]

OP, your positive approach to the issue is outstanding.

Personally I'd return it if possible. If not, I'd keep it and try to source the relevant non-relumed parts. All theoretical now, though...

[Cloudchaser]

Okay, an update on this one (apologies to those not subscribed who might be tired of the thread)...

After coming to a tentative agreement over the weekend, the seller and I have continued talking this week (primarily as we check in to whether or not any refund funds have posted on my end...they haven't).

And here is where it gets simply FASCINATING!!!!

The incredible community here at TRF has sent me a few messages over the weekend and during this week, some highlighting intelligent opinions but others, actually...

DELIVERED THE SMOKING GUN(S).

Yes, TRFers sent me screen caps of exchanges they had with the seller PRIOR to him ever listing the watch for sale on TRF! In these exchanges, the seller is plainly told (and acknowledges) that the watch has been re-relumed; any claims of the seller not knowing have turned out to be wholly untrue. Multiple experts shared with him that the watch had been re-lumed and that it ruined the value of the watch. Further, in one of the exchanges, the seller laments the fact that he will need "to find someone to buy it so I don't loose [sic] money." Again, these exchanges are from more than a month before he came to me and offered the watch in trade.

It is extraordinarily rare in life to be lied to only to have concrete proof to present in rebuttal. I can't ever think of a time where I had definitive, undeniable, visual proof of a lie in real time like this. That I had those screen caps was shocking to the seller to learn!

Thanks to the community members who saw this thread and reached out to help me. They had no obligation to help me whatsoever; they could have just quietly laughed behind the scenes at a fool and his money parting and gone on their way.

But they didn't. They stepped up and helped to right a wrong. Incredible. I feel super lucky, not only that I have (it appears) averted a small financial disaster, but because this forum is filled with good people looking out for others...just because they can.

I owe a few members here big favors. I plan to figure out the proper way to thank them and am now trying to figure out what GTG I should be going to in order to buy some people some drinks!

Thank you to those people, and also to the reasonable skeptics who told me along the way (here at TRF in this thread) to open my eyes to the fact that I was being lied to and that the seller had done it on purpose.

Well, he did do it on purpose, and my eyes have been opened. In my younger days, I'd probably have been too proud to come here and share my story. But I'm glad I did; not only has it rescued me from a dip-sh!*^ed thing I did, but it is also allowing others to learn some valuable buying/selling/vintage/human advice that can (hopefully) help them avoid similar or worse mistakes in the future.

TL;DR - TRF is filled with good folk; thank you for all of your help.

[roh123]

Just check the other thread about the washed maxi sub. The reality is that there are many opportunists trying to make money in this hobby. As long as watches are ok things run fairly smoothly. However when watches with issues pass by these individuals they ”make mistakes” and forget to mention key details.

[boomtime]

TRF for the win...hope things go smoothly and the seller as well learned something thru this process...with watches especially vintage being open and forthcoming is the best thing for everyone!

[swish77]

Originally Posted by swish77

Sorry, don't buy this explanation for one second. Rolliworks clearly described the dial as being re-lumed when you bought the watch, and you knew this. To say you disclosed "as many details" as you could, is nonsense. You failed to disclose THE most important detail that you could have mentioned.

To say you "didn't know what it (re-lume) actually was" is also nonsense, especially when a 30-second Google search would tell you. And even in the highly unlikely event that you were completely ignorant of the importance of a re-lumed dial, why not mention it to the OP and let him decide if it was important? Your story doesn't add up at all.

In addition, the OP says you two spoke on the phone at length about the watch, and that you described it as "all original." You knew this was not true and that the dial had been re-lumed because of the Rolliworks listing, regardless of how you felt about its importance.

This kind of story hurts all of us vintage lovers/hobbyists, especially those of us who occasionally sell watches, like me and many others. It's shameful.

Well, the latest update doesn't surprise me one little bit. It was clear the seller was lying, as I wrote earlier in this thread.

But what is the latest on whether you can get your money back?

[southtexas]

I’m still confused. Why is Rolliworks bailing out the buyer (being the OP) and seller (being the guy who sold it to OP)?


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[roh123]

Originally Posted by southtexas

I’m still confused. Why is Rolliworks bailing out the buyer (being the OP) and seller (being the guy who sold it to OP)?


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Because they can sell the watch for much more than 10k.

[42itus]

Yeah, it's not easy to tell your story and admit that you were duped. Thanks for sharing and hope this saves someone from the angst that you've experienced.

Please keep us updated on the status of the transaction.

[JustinK]

So are you pursuing a full refund via PayPal from the seller?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by swish77

Well, that update doesn't surprise me one little bit. As I wrote earlier in this thread and before you posted about the texts, it was clear the seller was lying.

But what is the latest on whether you can get your money back?

The seller has apologized (irrelevant, I know) and has promised to not contest the $3500 PayPal claim that I've "escalated" (it will be resolved on or before January 5, apparently). There had been an original partial refund of $2000, which is the one that has not yet posted. So...the seller has sent $2K (it does show as "pending") and has agreed to that me disputing the $3500 is rightful and that he will not contest it.

And I'm going into Rolliworks this weekend to meet Mike in person and thank him for his assistance in helping to solve this. The plan is for Mike to buy the watch at that time, at which point I'll be clear of it and "made whole" as they say.

That's the agreed-upon framework, at least. Hoping for the best.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by JustinK

So are you pursuing a full refund via PayPal from the seller?

I can only pursue the financial aspect through PayPal. So, yes, I will get all of the money that I contributed to the transaction but I will not be able to retrieve the mint GMT II that I contributed to the transaction. Short of filing in court, there is no way to compel him to give up the GMT (I did ask, and even offered to pay shipping for both watches).

Assuming the PayPal outcome is what it appears it will be, I will consider myself lucky and move on!

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I can only pursue the financial aspect through PayPal. So, yes, I will get all of the money that I contributed to the transaction but I will not be able to retrieve the mint GMT II that I contributed to the transaction. Short of filing in court, there is no way to compel him to give up the GMT (I did ask, and even offered to pay shipping for both watches).

Assuming the PayPal outcome is what it appears it will be, I will consider myself lucky and move on!

He was caught, so to speak, "red-handed", plain and simple. He tried to dupe you, and, thanks to the efforts of this community who came forward with evidence that before he listed the watch for sale, that he was "plainly told (and acknowledges) that the watch has been re-relumed: any claims of the seller not knowing have turned out to be wholly untrue".

That all said, HOW can he justify not undoing the entire sale and giving you back everything you agreed on in the original transaction?? It's, literally, as simple as refunding you the cash and the trade watch, and you sending him back the relumed 1680 for him to do what he pleases.

I do not get how he can't agree to that.

[037]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

That all said, HOW can he justify not undoing the entire sale and giving you back everything you agreed on in the original transaction?? It's, literally, as simple as refunding you the cash and the trade watch, and you sending him back the relumed 1680 for him to do what he pleases.

I do not get how he can't agree to that.

You're assuming the seller has enough cash to undo the transaction. I suspect he might not.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by roh123

Because they can sell the watch for much more than 10k.

A relumed red sub for “much more” than 10k? What makes you say that?


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[roh123]

Originally Posted by southtexas

A relumed red sub for “much more” than 10k? What makes you say that?


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They asked 22k for it the first time. I am sure they will, once again, sell it for more than 10k. It is worth plenty more even relumed.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by southtexas

A relumed red sub for “much more” than 10k? What makes you say that?


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According to Mike (at Rolliworks), it could sell for up to $14K, but not soon and only to the right buyer (who will KNOW it has been re-lumed). Mike mentioned that he'd likely be sitting on it until summer (and in fact not even try to sell it until then).

It feels important to remind everyone that Mike/Rolliworks DID most certainly tell my seller that it had been re-lumed. Not only did Mike share that information here (upthread), but the seller has admitted it to me today, as well. Mike and Rolliworks are beyond reproach in any of this, to be sure (and I would hope that there is some profit in there for them!!).

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by 037

You're assuming the seller has enough cash to undo the transaction. I suspect he might not.

You could be entirely right. Which is why HE should take the Sub and sell it to Mike at Rolliworks, himself, and give the OP whatever cash he's left owing him.

[erhein]

This has been a most interesting and educational thread. In my ignorance, I never would have thought that re-luming a vintage piece such as this would have such a negative effect on its collectability and value. Thanks to everyone who has contributed his/her expertise.

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by erhein

This has been a most interesting and educational thread. In my ignorance, I never would have thought that re-luming a vintage piece such as this would have such a negative effect on its collectability and value. Thanks to everyone who has contributed his/her expertise.

Anything not original hurts value....you will learn quickly

[Filipão]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

You could be entirely right. Which is why HE should take the Sub and sell it to Mike at Rolliworks, himself, and give the OP whatever cash he's left owing him.

100% correct.

[Juhuatai]

Market is pretty soft right now. Mike is probably right, would have to wait a bit. I don’t think he would be able to sell it for much more than 10k right now.

[Paulie 50]

Do you think he might have sold the GMT and made even more money on the deal, hence his reluctance to come forward.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Paulie 50

Do you think he might have sold the GMT and made even more money on the deal, hence his reluctance to come forward.

Good point

[037]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

You could be entirely right. Which is why HE should take the Sub and sell it to Mike at Rolliworks, himself, and give the OP whatever cash he's left owing him.

But if Cloudchaser gives the watch back to the seller then the seller would have the watch and the cash. At least with Mike buying it back it cuts out the middleman and even more potential for making a bad deal worse.

I agree that there's certainly a right path for all of this to go down but it doesn't look like the seller wants any part in that. And, if the story of him moving to Lyon is true, I wouldn't take that risk myself.

Kudos to Mike on this one. He shouldn't have to do this and it's awesome to see him step in.

[HarryLime]

What a completely unexpected discovery that absolutely no one in this thread predicted...

[77T]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

What a completely unexpected discovery that absolutely no one in this thread predicted...

That’s an understatement.

Hope the OP does get the watch sold to Mike and the PP refund he cited. It is a mighty good thing Mike did in stepping forward. Sure he might hold the watch for a while and make a bit of money but that is his business.

The member who sold the Sub to the OP was caught out - and that sort of sharp dealing shouldn’t be lost on the community.

I think it is unlikely any of you will be buying from him in the future.

Look forward to good news from the OP in the new year after PP releases the refund.


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[wappinghigh]

As a newbie to Rolex I find this thread a jaw dropper eyeopener... what with AD's with wait lists in the years and their "special" customers and shenanigans like this.... when is all this BS going to stop?

[mattedialdoc]

Do we have a process in place on this forum and others (VRF, etc) to Ban individuals that have clearly been caught in thievery?


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[swish77]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

Do we have a process in place on this forum and others (VRF, etc) to Ban individuals that have clearly been caught in thievery?


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For starters, I think the OP should post about the seller in the "WatchOut!" section and/or the "Who's Who" section on TRF.