Rolex 6263 incoming

[avilhena]

Originally Posted by swish77

So, you purchased a vintage Daytona without seeing the movement or the inside of the case back? Brave man.

The guy frow who I bought it has been one of my best friends for many years. He said the movement is ok. I can return it if there is any problem


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[TuRo]

May I strongly suggest just for the moment, to merely get the engraving up on VRF for highly learned comment/opinion..the 727 and caseback can wait.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by TuRo

May I strongly suggest just for the moment, to merely get the engraving up on VRF for highly learned comment/opinion..the 727 and caseback can wait.

Great suggestion. Would also be good to see the serial number engraving.

Here's the closest I could find to the OP's engraving, and based on the Perezcope webpage, should be the same style. (The comp Daytona is a 3 million case, and also a black sigma). Actually looks pretty close and differences might be from lighting/photo quality. Not sure.

One thing that does look different is the bottom edge of the case. The OP's example appears to angle down at the bottom, and the known authentic example has a lip/edge at the bottom. Optical illusion?

[avilhena]

Originally Posted by swish77

Great suggestion. Would also be good to see the serial number engraving.

Here's the closest I could find to the OP's engraving, and based on the Perezcope webpage, should be the same style. (The comp Daytona is a 3 million case, and also a black sigma). Actually looks pretty close and differences might be from lighting/photo quality. Not sure.

One thing that does look different is the bottom edge of the case. The OP's example appears to angle down at the bottom, and the known authentic example has a lip/edge at the bottom. Optical illusion?

I’m not wearing it right now but when I’m home I’ll take more pictures. Thanks!!


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[pereztroika]

The case number corresponds with a known 6263 batch. However, this particular Sigma Mk3 dial was only introduced around case number 3.9 million. Pushers look ok for this case number range. Bezel looks like a Mk2, should be Mk1 in this range. As for the engravings, we need sharper pictures to make a proper assessment. At first glace they look ok to me though.

Generally, for a proper assessment we need high resolution pictures. How about also posting a picture of the case number engravings?




Cheers
Jose

[avilhena]

About the quality of the pictures, I just have my phone to take photos, no high resolution cameras or macro lenses. Also, as I’m not a Tapatalk vip, I can’t post the maximum resolution, just the normal one.

[offrdmania]

Possible franken watch? I mean, its a good looking watch and not the end of the world is its priced accordingly.

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by avilhena

About the quality of the pictures, I just have my phone to take photos, no high resolution cameras or macro lenses. Also, as I’m not a Tapatalk vip, I can’t post the maximum resolution, just the normal one.

Looks ok at first glance but there are some numbers I would like to see in greater detail, namely the 2, the 8 and the 9. Could you please post a picture of the back of the watch? I would like to see the areas below the crown and the pushers.

Cheers
Jose

[baumare]

I was trying to compare the 2 from the serial to the one on the reference but can’t really tell if they have the same font

B76D8619-FFB5-4E99-9D86-4DA05C0BF46C.jpeg

[PVR]

Nothing wrong with the engravings. Nothing wrong with the papers. Nothing wrong with the Dial. Respectfully, I disagree with perezcope and there are no corresponding MK1,2,3 Sigma dials as they were all found on all serial ranges. Yes, different font and layouts on all 3 dials, but they were all manufactured around the same time. This "MK3" dial (according to perezcope) has been found on 2.8 serials for many years. A quick Google search shows one with a similar serial was just sold with the same dial just a few months ago at Sothebys.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auct...ference-6263-a

[avilhena]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

Looks ok at first glance but there are some numbers I would like to see in greater detail, namely the 2, the 8 and the 9. Could you please post a picture of the back of the watch? I would like to see the areas below the crown and the pushers.

Cheers
Jose

Thanks for all the help

[PVR]

Here is my personal 3.3m "MKI" for comparison, also outside of the serial range according to the above chart.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by PVR

Nothing wrong with the engravings. Nothing wrong with the papers. Nothing wrong with the Dial. Respectfully, I disagree with perezcope and there are no corresponding MK1,2,3 Sigma dials as they were all found on all serial ranges. Yes, different font and layouts on all 3 dials, but they were all manufactured around the same time. This "MK3" dial (according to perezcope) has been found on 2.8 serials for many years. A quick Google search shows one with a similar serial was just sold with the same dial just a few months ago at Sothebys.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auct...ference-6263-a

Personally, I think one can only build up a serial no. certainty range for dials etc from a nice sample size of the Watches AND accompanying Punched Paper pieces. Loose goose watches at Sotheby’s would not cut the mustard for me in doing so tbh.

[PVR]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Personally, I think one can only build up a serial no. certainty range for dials etc from a nice sample size of the Watches AND accompanying Punched Paper pieces. Loose goose watches at Sotheby’s would not cut the mustard for me in doing so tbh.

How would the papers help in determining what dial originally came in the watch in any way?

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by PVR

How would the papers help in determining what dial originally came in the watch in any way?

Well, let’s take a 16800 as an example. I have had over 100 of them ….I also have a database of those with punched papers I have owned, and also about 1,600 punched paper versions from 83-87.

I can now say with pretty good certainty (to just under 3 standard deviations) when the matte dial finished and the gloss was started (2 different numbers in a range of course)….you couldn’t do this as accurately if all the watches (1700) had been loose, as they are statistically much more likely to have have been fiddled with/molested.

[PVR]

Here's some more for you..

3.2m case with MK3 dial. Outside of range:
https://lunaroyster.com/product/1972...co-sigma-dial/

3.2m case, MKI dial
https://www.windvintage.com/rolex-da...reference-6263

3.3m case MKII dial
https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/w...dial-12/132333

3.99m case MKII dial
https://www.monacolegendauctions.com...ertu-12/lot-68

I think there are enough examples to demonstrate these 3 dials were found in every possible serial combination..

[PVR]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Well, let’s take a 16800 as an example. I have had over 100 of them ….I also have a database of those with punched papers I have owned, and also about 1,600 punched paper versions from 83-87.

I can now say with pretty good certainty (to just under 3 standard deviations) when the matte dial finished and the gloss was started….you couldn’t do this if all the watches (1700) had been loose, as they could have been fiddled with/molested.

This to me still makes no sense. What do the papers have to do with the dials? It has been well established what range the matte and gloss dials existed, I personally wouldn't purchase a matte 16800 in anything over 8.2m, but thats just me... but, I dont need papers to tell me that. There is a watch right now on one of the dealer chats with a matte 16800 dial WITH PAPERS in a 9m serial case. Let me post the photo.. So, how do the papers in any way validate that this matte dial belongs in the watch (it does not) or in any way support the sigma dials being correct or incorrect in any serial range?

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by avilhena

Thanks for all the help

Most welcome! Unfortunately I have to say I believe something is not right with this case. Compared to other watches in close case number proximity, the area around crown and pushers is considerably different. I don't like.


(Please open the picture in a separate window for full resolution)


Can you open the watch and show the movement and inside of the caseback please?


Cheers
Jose

[TuRo]

That 16800 watch is the obviously a dial swap.

Of course there are outliers / fiddled with watches.

A really good big sample size is imperative.

The reason I choose punched paper pieces, is that in another piece of my PhD research we identified that there is well under half the likelihood of a watch being molested/retrofitted with earlier (and often attempting more 'value creation') wrong dial etc if it's punched.

It appears folks are/have been more anal about correctness* when it's a full set (and tbh the only possible real justification for seeking old warranty paper pieces imho), and using punched versions just helps the statistical certainty/reduces sample size need.

*Notwithstanding a slight increase in post-prod' RSC Service items eg crowns on full sets.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

Most welcome! Unfortunately I have to say I believe something is not right with this case. Compared to other watches in close case number proximity, the area around crown and pushers is considerably different. I don't like.


(Please open the picture in a separate window for full resolution)


Can you open the watch and show the movement and inside of the caseback please?


Cheers
Jose

Yes, I was thinking that case shape is more akin to last of the late 6263/65s that are a lot chunkier incl lug size and wear bigger as such, like this one...

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/rolex/rol...id31751943.htm

[PVR]

Jose: This last observation is very interesting indeed. When I was looking at the original engraving photos I looked at the reference side (6263) and believed (and still do) that those are factory engravings. I briefly looked at the serial side and thought they looked OK, but they were blurry and I glanced perhaps too quickly.

Now, based on your case photo I revisited the serial side and am questioning just that side of the serials. I think the serial number may have been re engraved to match the small guaranty. I look at the bark (what I call the vertical grain between the lugs) and it looks much softer than the reference side, which leads me to believe it was wiped out and re engraved.

Your case photo may support this because the older cases did not have that "hump" between the two pushers and I believe later cases DID have that hump. SOOOO...I think this was a later case that was wiped out and re engraved with the current serial number to either match the paper and/or support having a sigma dial.

Nice catch Jose, you are the Rolex Detective for sure...

[avilhena]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

Most welcome! Unfortunately I have to say I believe something is not right with this case. Compared to other watches in close case number proximity, the area around crown and pushers is considerably different. I don't like.



Can you open the watch and show the movement and inside of the caseback please?


Cheers
Jose

hmm, yes, i can see the differences.

I do not have the tools to open the watch, but i can take it to a local watch repair on monday or tuesday and ask the guy to open it up for me!

[swish77]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

Unfortunately I have to say I believe something is not right with this case. Compared to other watches in close case number proximity, the area around crown and pushers is considerably different. I don't like.

Wow. Fascinating to see this watch dissected like this. Looking closely at the case comparisons, it also appears that the positioning of the pushers might be slightly different. They are famously asymmetrical on 6263s, but it's not as exaggerated on the OP's case, unless it's just the angle of the photos. Regardless, this is a great reminder to do a lot of homework before buying any vintage Rolex.

Jose, who helped me in the past with my 6263, is an invaluable resource.

[77T]

Originally Posted by avilhena

hmm, yes, i can see the differences.

I do not have the tools to open the watch, but i can take it to a local watch repair on monday or tuesday and ask the guy to open it up for me!

Yes, the difference is possibly due to a person building their “homage” to the original and then it got into the market.

Or worse…

What is the return policy (or recourse) with the seller?


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[Styles Bitchley]

Originally Posted by 77T

Yes, the difference is possibly due to a person building their homage to the original and then in got into the market.

If someone has wiped and re-engraved the serial to pass as an original, I don't think the term "homage" applies.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Styles Bitchley

If someone has wiped and re-engraved the serial to pass as an original, I don't think the term "homage" applies.

Yeah - I was being kind.

So I edited my original to add the quotes you correctly used.

As we know, a case can be bought and almost anything can be engraved between the lugs to order. This one’s handiwork twixt the lugs smacks of that too.


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[TuRo]

Originally Posted by 77T

Yeah - I was being kind.

So I edited my original to add the quotes you correctly used.

As we know, a case can be bought and almost anything can be engraved between the lugs to order. This one’s handiwork twixt the lugs smacks of that too.


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A heads-up in general worth noting....

Since January, I have handled 3 pieces that had blank-ish (other than serial numbers no. and dealer stamp and date) legit punched papers, but the watch case was fake.

All 3 had mid-cases, that shall we say were 'commissioned', and then additionally 'legitimacy-washed', with original Rolex/Tudor parts in conjunction with the papers.

On each, the additional parts eg dial, were either scruffy/low grade/not period parts, but legitimately helped by punched papers...to mask the case being fake.

This is worse than the problem we had just under a decade ago when the German counterfeiting team were producing punched papers to order....at least they could be spotted with an eagle eye....this is more difficult to spot as fake case engraving is now getting better.

Sadly, it isn't helped by the MODEL number being punched as well as that just pre-selects the fakers decision as to which mid-case they just have to clone.

This is in my opinion why some punched papers on eBay, that should be worthless (and we're £10 a decade ago) are now going for £300 or so.

[shammad10]

I find it wild that someone bought a 6 figure value vintage Daytona without researching and opening up the caseback!!

[Tensai]

Good to know.
Instagram is full of “dealers” selling countless watches with new-looking unpolished cases and punched papers. They can’t all be authentic. I would think that the more of these that are sold to unknowing buyers will eventually hurt the vintage watch market and overall credibility.

Originally Posted by TuRo

A heads-up in general worth noting....

Since January, I have handled 3 pieces that had blank-ish (other than serial numbers no. and dealer stamp and date) legit punched papers, but the watch case was fake.

All 3 had mid-cases, that shall we say were 'commissioned', and then additionally 'legitimacy-washed', with original Rolex/Tudor parts in conjunction with the papers.

On each, the additional parts eg dial, were either scruffy/low grade/not period parts, but legitimately helped by punched papers...to mask the case being fake.

This is worse than the problem we had just under a decade ago when the German counterfeiting team were producing punched papers to order....at least they could be spotted with an eagle eye....this is more difficult to spot as fake case engraving is now getting better.

Sadly, it isn't helped by the MODEL number being punched as well as that just pre-selects the fakers decision as to which mid-case they just have to clone.

This is in my opinion why some punched papers on eBay, that should be worthless (and we're £10 a decade ago) are now going for £300 or so.

[Goochy]

Originally Posted by shammad10

I find it wild that someone bought a 6 figure value vintage Daytona without researching and opening up the caseback!!

See post#31. The OP purchased it from a friend and it can be returned. The OP is doing his checks and investigations here, it’s a tricky one when you buy from a friend.