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Old 10 December 2016, 12:07 AM   #1
beshannon
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Seeking technical knowledge

Wanted to see if there was some technical knowledge that I could pickup regarding my 5711 that is in for service.

I sent it to Patek because it would no longer wind via the winding stem. The watch still ran and kept time when worn and wound by the rotor.

The estimate came back and said that in addition to the service I also needed a reduction wheel and a balance bridge.

A search does not reveal much.

Does anyone know what these parts do and are there any images to show where they are in the movement?

Thanks for any help.
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Old 10 December 2016, 03:52 AM   #2
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http://www.feller-sa.ch/en/reduction...reduction.html
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=47586

324 balance cock/bridge, as shot by Benlee (of his 5205R’s)



Why your auto winding reducer wheel and the balance cock need replacing after only 3.333 years, is a mystery…and quite frankly, a complete joke – especially as the problem was with the manual winding.
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Old 10 December 2016, 04:00 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ S View Post
http://www.feller-sa.ch/en/reduction...reduction.html
http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=47586

324 balance cock/bridge, as shot by Benlee (of his 5205R’s)



Why your auto winding reducer wheel and the balance cock need replacing after only 3.333 years, is a mystery…and quite frankly, a complete joke – especially as the problem was with the manual winding.
Thanks, I thought that was the part, I have images on my movement as well.

I have asked for a reason for the failure, will update if they respond. It is a disappointment however nothing is perfect and by comparison far more reliable than my last BMW which cost 3 times as much!
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Old 10 December 2016, 04:09 AM   #4
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So based upon my own image



What would be the failure point? I wonder if I could have seen it prior to sending it off, unfortunately I did not look as I thought is was the winding stem.
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Old 10 December 2016, 04:15 AM   #5
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Let’s not compare watches to cars – completely different kettle of fish altogether.

A 3 year old watch, irrespective of brand (and more so the higher end) should not be having a balance cock, nor a reducer wheel, failure – especially if correctly lubed and fitted during assembly.
In this day and age, the “these things happen” excuse wears very thin for me.

As for failure point – I honestly don’t know, but would imagine it’s on the underside, so you’d never have seen it anyway. But for that whole bridge needing swapped out, something isn’t right, and I’d bet it wasn’t due to typical wear and tear through daily/regular usage over a 3 year period.
In other words, I’d say it’s yet another shining example of Patek’s lackadaisical/inconsistent QC procedures.
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Old 10 December 2016, 04:18 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJ S View Post
A 3 year old watch, irrespective of brand (and more so the higher end) should not be having a balance cock failure nor a reducer wheel – especially if correctly lubed and fitted during assembly.
I agree.
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Old 10 December 2016, 05:08 AM   #7
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i typed a reply, then read it back and decided why bother. Enjoy your Patek.
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Old 10 December 2016, 05:53 AM   #8
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Balance bridge (cock) I find odd, reduction wheel could be worn though, it is a moving part after all. But a bit over three years is indeed unacceptable for a watch regardless of value. This doesn't even happen on a $50 Seiko 5.
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Old 10 December 2016, 07:39 AM   #9
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Sorry to hear of your problem,,,on such a beautiful watch,,,,such a shame and hope it doesn't affect your love of this iconic watch.
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Old 10 December 2016, 07:48 AM   #10
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i typed a reply, then read it back and decided why bother. Enjoy your Patek.

I can imagine what it was.
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Old 10 December 2016, 08:53 AM   #11
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What they quote as estimate? did you ask clarification on the failure?


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Old 11 December 2016, 12:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SearChart View Post
Balance bridge (cock) I find odd, reduction wheel could be worn though, it is a moving part after all. But a bit over three years is indeed unacceptable for a watch regardless of value. This doesn't even happen on a $50 Seiko 5.
I agree

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What they quote as estimate? did you ask clarification on the failure?


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I have asked for clarification and the total quote including return shipping is $1744.00
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Old 11 December 2016, 12:49 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by enjoythemusic View Post
i typed a reply, then read it back and decided why bother. Enjoy your Patek.
Thanks I will, not sure what your post was meant to tell me
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Old 11 December 2016, 12:52 AM   #14
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Was there any point the watch was abused or opened by another service person?
Did you buy it preowned or new?

As stated, the worn parts sound like something you would not expect to find on a 3 year old watch ... my expectation would be a very detailed response from Patek, for a start.
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Old 11 December 2016, 01:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beshannon View Post
Thanks I will, not sure what your post was meant to tell me
Patek should cover the parts and labor to install them gratis. Obviously it seems to be a manufacturer defect on their part. It's deeply concerning to see they're having ongoing production problems, yet when discovered they should replace them free of cost to the owner imho. Maybe they've solved things with current production?

Please re-read what others feel about this situation and then perhaps write a letter to Patek Philippe in Switzerland and see if they feel these parts only have a three year lifespan or ??? Am curious what the factory feels is the durability of that movement.
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Old 11 December 2016, 05:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtona View Post
Was there any point the watch was abused or opened by another service person?
Did you buy it preowned or new?

As stated, the worn parts sound like something you would not expect to find on a 3 year old watch ... my expectation would be a very detailed response from Patek, for a start.
Bought new from AD

Quote:
Originally Posted by enjoythemusic View Post
Patek should cover the parts and labor to install them gratis. Obviously it seems to be a manufacturer defect on their part. It's deeply concerning to see they're having ongoing production problems, yet when discovered they should replace them free of cost to the owner imho. Maybe they've solved things with current production?

Please re-read what others feel about this situation and then perhaps write a letter to Patek Philippe in Switzerland and see if they feel these parts only have a three year lifespan or ??? Am curious what the factory feels is the durability of that movement.
I will contact them on Monday, I have a contact person name in New York.

I do not disagree with anything posted, I am just not expecting them to cover a repair out of warranty no matter how badly I might want them to.
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Old 11 December 2016, 05:49 AM   #17
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Being out of warranty isn't the issue — improperly manufactured or assembled piece(s) that should last a decade at the very least (much longer really for the cock/bridge), is not something you should be putting your hand in your pocket for...you already did that when you bought the product, which the price is supposed to reflect the quality, not just how well it's been decorated and polished!
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Old 11 December 2016, 06:22 AM   #18
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I do not disagree with anything posted, I am just not expecting them to cover a repair out of warranty no matter how badly I might want them to.
Ah, so this thread is a test. I get it now. Bravo and well done.
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Old 11 December 2016, 06:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
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^
Being out of warranty isn't the issue — improperly manufactured or assembled piece(s) that should last a decade at the very least (much longer really for the cock/bridge), is not something you should be putting your hand in your pocket for...you already did that when you bought the product, which the price is supposed to reflect the quality, not just how well it's been decorated and polished!
I agree, I am not against paying for normal wear and tear, but if it is on pieces which in all logic should have a 10-20 year lifespan if not more, after 3 years only, then I would argue with them and ask them if this is normal on their watches that after such a small timespan you need to replace parts just because your warranty is finished, I would be very unhappy...
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Old 11 December 2016, 07:06 AM   #20
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Guys, he's a perfect customer for modrrn Patek, i think that's the takeaway here. No matter how badly made a product may be, he'll always pay up full retail without quibble. Let's be honest, Patek is in need for more of this type of customer. Hopefully he paid full list price from an AD too.

Sure those with knowledge of timepieces realize there is a problem, yet he's willing to overlook this to financially support the current Patek Philippe regime. An interesting decision to be sure, yet he can pay as he so chooses and I'll defend his right to do so.
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Old 12 December 2016, 01:10 AM   #21
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Ah, so this thread is a test. I get it now. Bravo and well done.


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Guys, he's a perfect customer for modrrn Patek, i think that's the takeaway here. No matter how badly made a product may be, he'll always pay up full retail without quibble. Let's be honest, Patek is in need for more of this type of customer. Hopefully he paid full list price from an AD too.

Sure those with knowledge of timepieces realize there is a problem, yet he's willing to overlook this to financially support the current Patek Philippe regime. An interesting decision to be sure, yet he can pay as he so chooses and I'll defend his right to do so.


Really not sure why you are being so rude.

I am taking the suggestions put forth and I do not need to be lectured by you about what I should or should not do.

Best of luck to you!

To those who actually helped, I thank you. I will report back after I speak to Patek on Monday.
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Old 12 December 2016, 01:25 AM   #22
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Many thanks and as always, what really matters is that you... enjoy your time
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Old 12 December 2016, 03:58 AM   #23
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Guys, he's a perfect customer for modrrn Patek, i think that's the takeaway here. No matter how badly made a product may be, he'll always pay up full retail without quibble. Let's be honest, Patek is in need for more of this type of customer. Hopefully he paid full list price from an AD too.

Sure those with knowledge of timepieces realize there is a problem, yet he's willing to overlook this to financially support the current Patek Philippe regime. An interesting decision to be sure, yet he can pay as he so chooses and I'll defend his right to do so.


I typed a reply, then read it back and decided why bother.
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Old 12 December 2016, 04:01 AM   #24
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Really not sure why you are being so rude.

I am taking the suggestions put forth and I do not need to be lectured by you about what I should or should not do.

Best of luck to you!

To those who actually helped, I thank you. I will report back after I speak to Patek on Monday.
Ignore him - He gets pleasure from Patek bashing, now seems he gets pleasure from OP bashing as well.

Good luck with Patek tomorrow.
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Old 12 December 2016, 04:52 AM   #25
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Was not bashing the OP, in fact I'll defend his right to accept paying for repair of what others agree that appears to be a defective timepiece that should be a warranty repair. It is challenging to post feeling/inflections into mere words on a discussion board. :(
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Old 12 December 2016, 10:30 PM   #26
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Ignore him - He gets pleasure from Patek bashing, now seems he gets pleasure from OP bashing as well.

Good luck with Patek tomorrow.
Thanks, already done.

I will update after the call.
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Old 13 December 2016, 04:23 AM   #27
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I just got off the phone with Patek about the estimate and the failure of two parts after 3.5 years, I was told the following by Richard, who by the way is very helpful and thorough with the explanations.

Patek says the watch suffered a shock, with no visible signs on the case. I did not damage the watch in any way. Richard says it could have been at any time.

Richard agrees that the barrel bridge which was wearing (and now out of tolerance) and should NOT have worn this way even with the loss of clearance, especially given the age. The reduction wheel has a broken rivet, again they say because of shock.

Richard will now look into more of an explanation as he was just looking at the notes provided for the initial estimate.

I returned the estimate form giving my approval for the repair and Richard says that if there is an adjustment they will change the invoice accordingly.

I will continue to update as I get more info.
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Old 13 December 2016, 07:02 AM   #28
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I read your other thread, and realise we’ve been discussing the wrong part!
In you op above, you said “balance”, relating to the escapement, whereas it’s the “barrel bridge”, which is part of the winding mechanism, since the barrel is what contains your mainspring.

As much as I want to say “ballsocks” to the explanation given, I could see if the rivet broke on the reduction wheel first, then it explains how the bridge has been worn excessively.
Whether I agree that sufficient force has cause the reduction wheel pivot to break, yet show the case show no signs of having been knocked, is a different matter.

On the face of it, it would seem to raise a question mark about the 324’s robustness – but the movement has been around long enough for weaknesses to have been ironed out, as part of any ongoing improvement programme that Patek may operate/have operated until satisfied it was at optimal performance and reliability.
On that basis, they may be right, or it could be that that part (assuming the order of events) was always destined to fail earlier than it would be expected, so it was going to happen sooner or later.

Unfortunately, it looks like you’re going to have to spend a chunk of money for something that you may/may not have caused.
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Old 13 December 2016, 10:10 PM   #29
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I could see if the rivet broke on the reduction wheel first, then it explains how the bridge has been worn excessively.
Whether I agree that sufficient force has cause the reduction wheel pivot to break, yet show the case show no signs of having been knocked, is a different matter.
Thanks this seems to make sense and I am waiting for a better explanation as Richard said he agreed that the notes as written did not make sense to him either.
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Old 20 December 2016, 05:34 AM   #30
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After getting the watch examined by the head watchmaker, I am told that even if there were a significant shock to the watch, the barrel bridge should not have exhibited that amount of wear for at least another 7-10 years or longer.

As an accommodation by Patek, the have acknowledged that the part may have been defective and they have agreed to replace the part at no cost to me. I did not question the reduction wheel part as I am happy that they covered what they did.

Very happy with the responsiveness of Patek and the thoroughness of the explanations given to me.

With the approval already received, I am counting down the 20~ weeks until I have it back.

I will update as we go along.
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