Lemania vs Patek Movement in Perpetual Calendar

[galtinuk]

I am curious as to why those who prefer the Lemania movement in the 5970 over the Patek movement in the 5270?

Seems to me it is a widely available movement that both Patek and Vacheron have decorated nicely and put in similar watches function wise.

That obviously does not make it a bad movement by any means. In fact probably on the contrary as both Vacheron and Patek used it for a similar watch.

However, curious as to why those who like it prefer it to the Patek home grown caliber? Perhaps it is not about the movement but more about the case and dial of the older versions?

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[Bearxj86]

limited production of lemania calibers vs mass produced Patek.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

limited production of lemania calibers vs mass produced Patek.

It is an interesting point in question.

Whilst a simple search on chrono24 of 5070, 5170, 5970 and 5270 shows the Lemania calibers are approx half the numbers of the Patek movement pieces that for sure doesn't put the Patek into the mass produced realm and of course if you consider the other manufacturers using the Lemania caliber I'm not sure the volume argument stacks up at all. Include 3970 and numbers are broadly even for Patek. Consider further that the older pieces get they tend to remain in collections longer and get traded less so volume available drops.

The Patek in house movement is in a number of ways superior to the Lemania it replaced. None of this matters in the mad world of watches and of course being unavailable to buy new drives prices only one way.

[Fat_ninja]

Didn’t it take a long long time before people were interested in the pateks with the Lemania movements? I’m asking vs positing.

[gpwhite]

I have 3970, 5204, 5070, and also a 5270 in recent past. They are all nice, :).

First off, the base Lemania works that go into CH 27-70 was entirely redesigned and finished by Patek. Looking at the CH 27-70 movement as a Lemania derivative is really not accurate, and you can find elaborate, documented reviews on this point on line. I would consider the CH 27-70 and the 29-535 as entirely equals.

The 2.5Hz beat and large balance in the CH 27-70 is really lovely to look at and listen to. The 4Hz, compact escapement/ balance of the 29-535 is just another busy clicking Patek time keeper.

There are several important mechanical and feature advances in the 29-535, such as stop seconds, long-term durability of the chrono train and jumping minute counter. Certainly the splits is up in another league (5204 vs 5004).

My experience has been that finishing of the 29-535 is up to the level of the CH 27-70 only on the higher price points, such as 5204. I have looked at a couple of 5270, and the anglage, etc. (if that is important to you) is no different than a common Patek perpetual.... sketchy relative to top-notch execution at Lange or Journe.

In terms of residual value, there is little comparison between the movements. Even the 3970 and 5070, for which there are many pieces, hold value quite well relative to the 29-535 options.

[gpwhite]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

Didn’t it take a long long time before people were interested in the pateks with the Lemania movements? I’m asking vs positing.

Yes, my understanding from specialist dealers (not big brick and mortar like Govberg et al) is that the 5970 and 3970 were quite soft for a very long time. My impression is the style changes Patek undertook in the modern Thierry era have also done the 29-535 pieces no favors at all.

The 5270 case looks and wears a bit clunky to some (like me).

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by gpwhite

I have 3970, 5204, 5070, and also a 5270 in recent past. They are all nice, :).

First off, the base Lemania works that go into CH 27-70 was entirely redesigned and finished by Patek. Looking at the CH 27-70 movement as a Lemania derivative is really not accurate, and you can find elaborate, documented reviews on this point on line. I would consider the CH 27-70 and the 29-535 as entirely equals.

The 2.5Hz beat and large balance in the CH 27-70 is really lovely to look at and listen to. The 4Hz, compact escapement/ balance of the 29-535 is just another busy clicking Patek time keeper.

There are several important mechanical and feature advances in the 29-535, such as stop seconds, long-term durability of the chrono train and jumping minute counter. Certainly the splits is up in another league (5204 vs 5004).

My experience has been that finishing of the 29-535 is up to the level of the CH 27-70 only on the higher price points, such as 5204. I have looked at a couple of 5270, and the anglage, etc. (if that is important to you) is no different than a common Patek perpetual.... sketchy relative to top-notch execution at Lange or Journe.

In terms of residual value, there is little comparison between the movements. Even the 3970 and 5070, for which there are many pieces, hold value quite well relative to the 29-535 options.

Interesting and detailed post.

[galtinuk]

Originally Posted by gpwhite

I have 3970, 5204, 5070, and also a 5270 in recent past. They are all nice, :).



First off, the base Lemania works that go into CH 27-70 was entirely redesigned and finished by Patek. Looking at the CH 27-70 movement as a Lemania derivative is really not accurate, and you can find elaborate, documented reviews on this point on line. I would consider the CH 27-70 and the 29-535 as entirely equals.



The 2.5Hz beat and large balance in the CH 27-70 is really lovely to look at and listen to. The 4Hz, compact escapement/ balance of the 29-535 is just another busy clicking Patek time keeper.



There are several important mechanical and feature advances in the 29-535, such as stop seconds, long-term durability of the chrono train and jumping minute counter. Certainly the splits is up in another league (5204 vs 5004).



My experience has been that finishing of the 29-535 is up to the level of the CH 27-70 only on the higher price points, such as 5204. I have looked at a couple of 5270, and the anglage, etc. (if that is important to you) is no different than a common Patek perpetual.... sketchy relative to top-notch execution at Lange or Journe.



In terms of residual value, there is little comparison between the movements. Even the 3970 and 5070, for which there are many pieces, hold value quite well relative to the 29-535 options.

Fantastic..very informative, thank you!

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[enjoythemusic]

Great info on this thread for sure!

Originally Posted by gpwhite

....My experience has been that finishing of the 29-535 is up to the level of the CH 27-70 only on the higher price points, such as 5204. I have looked at a couple of 5270, and the anglage, etc. (if that is important to you) is no different than a common Patek perpetual.... sketchy relative to top-notch execution at Lange or Journe.

In terms of residual value, there is little comparison between the movements. Even the 3970 and 5070, for which there are many pieces, hold value quite well relative to the 29-535 options.

100% agree to the above. Patek stopped doing truly excellent decoration on their 'mainstream' relatively modern pieces. Had a 3970er (third edition) and used it A LOT and loved it. Yes ol' 'hamburger' and all that. Today, it looks far too small by modern standards.

If you want true high-end movement decoration in a modern timepiece, you should consider ALS or FPJ. Vintage Pateks like a 3970 are soft in pricing and i doubt they'll go anywhere for quite some time (if ever).