What is the official consensus on acceptable service for vintage?

[sportsfan0704]

So a lot of things seem to be pretty set in stone, such as no polishing, keep original dial and hands, bracelet of course. But what about repairs to get vintage watches running, like gaskets? mainspring? Crown? Does changing those things during service effect value at all?

I ask because I have a vintage explorer 1016 from 1970 that has never been serviced. It is obviously not running. I would like to know what things I should specify when I send it to an independent for service who specializes in vintage. Thanks!

[linesiders]

I would guess under 1K, there is a chance it may need more parts.

I recommend Phillip Ridley - he has done a couple of mine the past several months. He focuses on vintage.

https://ridleywatchmakers.com/

[77T]

The items you mentioned regarding a preference for originality are usually meant to maintain value if one were to part with the watch in the future.

If you want the watch to run, and be water resistant, you’ll need to replace parts. Those won’t be at your discretion - your watchmaker may say crown, tube, gaskets, crystal, mainspring, balance and a gear here or there. If you want it to run and be protected from water, those must be replaced.

Sometimes corroded parts are inside and you may need a donor movement. That’s the risk of not servicing for 50+ years.

What are your options really?

Substitute a desire for value retention for utilitarian purpose?


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[Dan S]

Highly visible non-expendable parts are the most important for collectible value ... dial. hands, bezel, case, caseback. If you replace the crown or crystal to improve water resistance, just tuck the originals away and save them, you never know who might want to have them in the future. Internal parts don't generally affect value too much, although it would be unfortunate if you had to replace something big and obvious, like the rotor. A movement with dramatically mismatched parts is not appealing to a collector.

[BiG JeEzY]

These kinds of posts make me reconsider my stance on vintage at the moment. While they are full of character and charm, getting them to run properly and be water resistant is not as simple as a straightforward service that you would do on a modern watch.

In some cases, a watchmaker may only be able to restore a vintage watch to not 100% pristine running condition but perhaps only 80% or so. And the watch will never run the same way as it did when new.

I still love vintage but seeing that these watches have limited functionality now compared to modern makes me at times want to convert to just wearing modern watches.

Anyways, I would just replace anything that the watchmaker recommends to be replaced in the movement, and just replace the crown and the crystal. Every other exterior part you can see, just leave alone. Except for some cases, if your caseback is corroded, you will want to replace that too.

[Arnozerosix]

Originally Posted by BiG JeEzY

These kinds of posts make me reconsider my stance on vintage at the moment. While they are full of character and charm, getting them to run properly and be water resistant is not as simple as a straightforward service that you would do on a modern watch.

In some cases, a watchmaker may only be able to restore a vintage watch to not 100% pristine running condition but perhaps only 80% or so. And the watch will never run the same way as it did when new.

I still love vintage but seeing that these watches have limited functionality now compared to modern makes me at times want to convert to just wearing modern watches.

Anyways, I would just replace anything that the watchmaker recommends to be replaced in the movement, and just replace the crown and the crystal. Every other exterior part you can see, just leave alone. Except for some cases, if your caseback is corroded, you will want to replace that too.

I would say, it depends on your approach.
If you consider vintage watches as an invest, you should keep it in a safe and not wear it, which somehow is a paradox because you mentioned being sensitive to the vintage charm... charm in a safe. hummmm....

if you don't care about invest and want to have it because you like it, even a tool watch, somehow will have to be polished and follow a certain degree of modification for being wearable. for example I love to wear a jacket with my old stuff (restored)... I wouldn't wear a jacket with a watch full of dent and with a scratch or broken crystal and a dial that looks like a corroded/rusted piece of steel.

to be transparent I had my 62 gilt sub relumed and fully restored by a professional (case polished and lasered, hands ....) and I don't care about the value retention, I just love to wear it like if it was mint...

At the extreme, I am sensitive about people who want to keep it sealed and waterproof at any cost and have these watches with new crown (different in shape not always matching the style of the case) new crystal (different in shape not always matching the style of the case)....

my 2 cts,
cheers,

[Nick9]

People often seem to assume that a vintage 60 or 70 year old watch that they’ve found is in factory-original condition.

I’m the opposite. I expect that a vintage watch I find has been serviced a few times — mainspring, gaskets, maybe crown, crown tube. Crystal. Who knows what else? It’s a safer bet that those things have already been changed.

I would never replace a dial, hands, bezel case, etc unless it was to restore a watch to period correct.

In any event, my intention is always to end up with a wearable watch that tells time. So servicing the movement — however my watchmaker proposes — is always the right thing for me.

[Cantab]

Second the motion by Linesiders recommending Phillip Ridley.

[indianmachine]

Does a corroded case need to be repaired if you aren't going to take it in water and are careful with it?

[Tools]

Movement parts, seals and gaskets are expected expendables and replacement to keep a watch running has zero effect on "value". Nobody wants a watch that is unsound and non working. An exception might be a complete movement swap or counterfeit replacement parts.

Market value is in originality and condition of visible cosmetics.

[R.W.T.]

Unless an internal part has cosmetically changed over production time...you wouldn't know the difference. I've never seen ANYONE turn down a 1530-1560 equipped watch for having teflon reversing wheels. At some point it's just stupid. Sure if it has the brass wheels and they work...fine...but how do you KNOW those are the ones that came in it? You don't. And unless you bought it new...and belIEVE me...the memories of people who bought Rolex new in the 1940's 1950's 1960's 1970's and even 1980's are generally FAR from accurate and I have a near photographic memory for places and events. If you know the history and what to look for...the GUARANTEED 100% original never restored dial that is SCREAMING "I have been badly refinished" to me...begins to wear thin. The owner is defiant and he owned it since new and it's never been serviced except what are all those scratch marks and dates in the back of the case and how come the screws are all marked...I mean...it's endless.

The minutia of pointless "originality" has spoiled what was once enjoyable.



"I love this old submariner...the previous owner dove for Jim McGillicuddy's Super Duper Dive Team in the Antarctic and he wore it on every dive! It's so scratched I can't even read the dial..isn't that cool?...You can see bits of rust around the crystal flange where it leaked...it's worth a FORTUNE....the dial is TROPICAL (water damaged.) That means he dove in the tropics too...! Even cooler. It has all of the original parts. He never serviced it...you can tell by the way the rotor scrapes the inside of the case back. I'm never going to let anyone EVER SEE INSIDE OF IT....I'm going to DIE IN THIS WATCH!

I have a vintage Mercedes...the valve cover and pan gaskets leak about 2 quarts of oil a week. The police stop me because of the smoke billowing out from underneath it when I stop at stop signs from the oil leaking onto the exhaust manifolds...it's 50 years old..the oil has never been changed...all of the window gaskets are original...It takes about a week and half to dry the carpet out after a rainstorm...the floors are rusting through...but it's TOTALLY ORIGINAL...

[Filipão]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

Unless an internal part has cosmetically changed over production time...you wouldn't know the difference. I've never seen ANYONE turn down a 1530-1560 equipped watch for having teflon reversing wheels. At some point it's just stupid. Sure if it has the brass wheels and they work...fine...but how do you KNOW those are the ones that came in it? You don't. And unless you bought it new...and belIEVE me...the memories of people who bought Rolex new in the 1940's 1950's 1960's 1970's and even 1980's are generally FAR from accurate and I have a near photographic memory for places and events. If you know the history and what to look for...the GUARANTEED 100% original never restored dial that is SCREAMING "I have been badly refinished" to me...begins to wear thin. The owner is defiant and he owned it since new and it's never been serviced except what are all those scratch marks and dates in the back of the case and how come the screws are all marked...I mean...it's endless.

The minutia of pointless "originality" has spoiled what was once enjoyable.



"I love this old submariner...the previous owner dove for Jim McGillicuddy's Super Duper Dive Team in the Antarctic and he wore it on every dive! It's so scratched I can't even read the dial..isn't that cool?...You can see bits of rust around the crystal flange where it leaked...it's worth a FORTUNE....the dial is TROPICAL (water damaged.) That means he dove in the tropics too...! Even cooler. It has all of the original parts. He never serviced it...you can tell by the way the rotor scrapes the inside of the case back. I'm never going to let anyone EVER SEE INSIDE OF IT....I'm going to DIE IN THIS WATCH!

I have a vintage Mercedes...the valve cover and pan gaskets leak about 2 quarts of oil a week. The police stop me because of the smoke billowing out from underneath it when I stop at stop signs from the oil leaking onto the exhaust manifolds...it's 50 years old..the oil has never been changed...all of the window gaskets are original...It takes about a week and half to dry the carpet out after a rainstorm...the floors are rusting through...but it's TOTALLY ORIGINAL...

Precisely.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

Unless an internal part has cosmetically changed over production time...you wouldn't know the difference. I've never seen ANYONE turn down a 1530-1560 equipped watch for having teflon reversing wheels. At some point it's just stupid. Sure if it has the brass wheels and they work...fine...but how do you KNOW those are the ones that came in it? You don't. And unless you bought it new...and belIEVE me...the memories of people who bought Rolex new in the 1940's 1950's 1960's 1970's and even 1980's are generally FAR from accurate and I have a near photographic memory for places and events. If you know the history and what to look for...the GUARANTEED 100% original never restored dial that is SCREAMING "I have been badly refinished" to me...begins to wear thin. The owner is defiant and he owned it since new and it's never been serviced except what are all those scratch marks and dates in the back of the case and how come the screws are all marked...I mean...it's endless.

The minutia of pointless "originality" has spoiled what was once enjoyable.



"I love this old submariner...the previous owner dove for Jim McGillicuddy's Super Duper Dive Team in the Antarctic and he wore it on every dive! It's so scratched I can't even read the dial..isn't that cool?...You can see bits of rust around the crystal flange where it leaked...it's worth a FORTUNE....the dial is TROPICAL (water damaged.) That means he dove in the tropics too...! Even cooler. It has all of the original parts. He never serviced it...you can tell by the way the rotor scrapes the inside of the case back. I'm never going to let anyone EVER SEE INSIDE OF IT....I'm going to DIE IN THIS WATCH!

I have a vintage Mercedes...the valve cover and pan gaskets leak about 2 quarts of oil a week. The police stop me because of the smoke billowing out from underneath it when I stop at stop signs from the oil leaking onto the exhaust manifolds...it's 50 years old..the oil has never been changed...all of the window gaskets are original...It takes about a week and half to dry the carpet out after a rainstorm...the floors are rusting through...but it's TOTALLY ORIGINAL...

I'm glad you had a chance to vent.

[Incroyable12]

Are replacing crown tubes, crowns and crystal such a big deal breaker for vintage?

[Tools]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Are replacing crown tubes, crowns and crystal such a big deal breaker for vintage?

Nothing is a deal-breaker, unless it is one for you.

Very early tubes and crowns were designed differently and installed differently. Some prefer to refit the older style/design to make their old-timer more true to it's era. You have to go back a long way to find these.

To have a vintage with stripped crown threads and wobbly tubes would not be a wearable piece, so it depends on what you are looking for.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Are replacing crown tubes, crowns and crystal such a big deal breaker for vintage?

In some cases, the shape of the modern replacement crystal is quite different from the original, and significantly changes the look of the watch. If it doesn't bother you, then don't worry about it.

[Incroyable12]

Originally Posted by Tools

Nothing is a deal-breaker, unless it is one for you.

Very early tubes and crowns were designed differently and installed differently. Some prefer to refit the older style/design to make their old-timer more true to it's era. You have to go back a long way to find these.

To have a vintage with stripped crown threads and wobbly tubes would not be a wearable piece, so it depends on what you are looking for.

A RSC watchmaker told me that the crown tubes in Day-Dates are actually made out of gold so they have a tendency to wear more. The platinum and WG models have rhodium plated gold crown tubes apparently.

[dustin.owens]

Originally Posted by sportsfan0704

So a lot of things seem to be pretty set in stone, such as no polishing, keep original dial and hands, bracelet of course. But what about repairs to get vintage watches running, like gaskets? mainspring? Crown? Does changing those things during service effect value at all?



I ask because I have a vintage explorer 1016 from 1970 that has never been serviced. It is obviously not running. I would like to know what things I should specify when I send it to an independent for service who specializes in vintage. Thanks!

I would service it as needed to run good and just have the watchmaker retain all the original parts for you. (Gaskets, mainspring, etc. are no big deal at all though). Then you can enjoy it on your wrist and always restore it to original if desired.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

[TheBluechip]

Originally Posted by Incroyable12

Are replacing crown tubes, crowns and crystal such a big deal breaker for vintage?

I was under the impression that replacing the crystal does not affect value. Or do a few people who know more about vintage watches than I have told me. Though that may be a contentious point, and may be some people will disagree.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by TheBluechip

I was under the impression that replacing the crystal does not affect value. Or do a few people who know more about vintage watches than I have told me. Though that may be a contentious point, and may be some people will disagree.

It depends. For entry-level watches, the difference would be negligible. However, if you replace an original vintage crystal that has a distinctive shape with a current service crystal that has a different shape, that will generally have a negative effect on value, especially now that NOS crystals are getting harder to find. Of course, it may make the watch more water-resistant, which could preserve the watch in the long run.

[Filipão]

To illustrate Dan's thoughts - @TheBluechip - take a look at these 2 similar SDs.

Apart from the dials and bracelet, they should look the same, but the double red has service hands and plexi.

I have the original Tritium hands stashed away and have bought a D39 TrueDome, so soon I'll have the beast on its feet again.

[TuRo]

All that said, I do like dark red reverser wheels rather than those neo-dayglo pink ones if poss