YOU Decide: The NEW Modern Holy Trinity

[Reign]

Originally Posted by djnick

If anyone wants to read that book that @unknown posted about finishing and details book written by AP its out of print and hard to find not to mention expensive but someone has scanned it and put it up and no excuse not to read now!

http://www.tenjou.net/dump/High-end%...decoration.zip

Thanks for sharing - a great read so far


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[Boopie]

I think it’s interesting that Breguet isn’t mentioned more, given its history and still-amazing watches.

I agree on Patek.

I’m kind of stuck on the others..I’m a woman with smallish wrists, so I can’t wear most of the great watches of the world today, and must admire them from afar. I do note that many of the women’s watches in many of the finest lines were quartz up until recently…Rolex is one of the very few exceptions. When I was looking for my great achievement watch 20 years ago, the only serious contender (for a daily watch) with Rolex was Patek’s Twenty-4…a quartz watch. There aren’t any VC that appeal to me. The AP has the RO, but I’m not a huge fan of Genta styling.

[Malibuca]

Had never heard of MB&F prior to this thread and wow, it's crazy stuff. Will have to spend some time going through the whole website (and then the rest of the brands in here )

[BLACKHORSE 6]

Interesting thread. Perhaps more clarity on the criteria of what constitutes the new “modern” Holy Trinity would allow members to better advocate for their brand of choice.

When AP, VC, and PP were chosen, it was because they had withstood the test of time (pun intended). The problem with choosing a modern brand is that no matter how well they execute now, they could prove to be a flash in the pan. Hard to say what the future will hold for any of these small independents.

[enjoythemusic]

Good points Blackhorse, yes those old brands have been around a while, yet times have indeed changed. Some have been left behind, another now has a sliding scale of quality it seems. This could get VERY interesting indeed!

[edyu]

Originally Posted by mrN

Richard Mille
Greubel Forsey
Mb&f

Excellent Choices. I agree with you wholehearted especially since OP said Modern. I'm partial to FPJ but these 3 are on top (especially in pricing).

[edyu]

Originally Posted by odeon

- Breguet of Swatch Group: We all have to pay tribute to the history, and email.

Let us elaborate more...

Why FP Journe is out of list? Because it could not reach the culminating point yet. It has adorable pieces and detailed innovations. But there must be a time to leap more.

I agree with your comment on FPJ even though I'm partial to it.

For Breguet, I'm not certain how the current brand has much to do with the historical Breguet other than the name.

[BLACKHORSE 6]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Good points Blackhorse, yes those old brands have been around a while, yet times have indeed changed. Some have been left behind, another now has a sliding scale of quality it seems. This could get VERY interesting indeed!

But what they all have in common is a brand identity that goes back to the early days of watch making. When dealing with that type of time horizon, there are undoubtedly going to be peaks and valleys. Market tastes changes, company leadership changes, technology changes, and economic circumstances are constantly in flux. The three original companies of the holy trinity have accomplished quite a feat by even existing this long, much less by maintaining the relevance in the market that they have for so long. I would say that the reason that these three companies still exist is because they make wonderful and innovative products... and because they each have been lucky enough to have a string of leaders inside their organizations that were able to learn and adapt to the watch market and world around them. Now these organizations have an institutional knowledge and tradition of changing/adapting/innovating that will help them survive over the long haul.

So looking at an amazing independent company like FP Journe... you not only have to love their watches, but you have to look at the company itself and make a judgement call on what type of organization it will be. When the founder is no longer involved because he's "no longer with us" what will happen to the company that he built? Fast forward 25 years after that point... will FP Journe still be be in business or be relevant? 50 years? 100 years? The watches that FP Journe is making today may still be desirable to own and collect, but will the company even still exist?

So, maybe one of the original holy trinity is having QC issues. Maybe another of them is a one trick pony that can't break free of a single design. Maybe the member of the holy trinity that comes last in alphabetical order doesn't have the market reach or relevance of Instagram collectors and rappers/athletes driving prices into the stratosphere. All of that may be true. But in my mind, what makes these companies impressive is how long that they've been in the game and how they've navigated every crisis, everything from world wars to the quartz crisis, and still remained in business and relevant. I would hazard a guess and say that its far more likely for the original companies of AP, PP and VC to still be around in 100 years than any of the independent watch companies that have been listed.

But, I also may not know what I'm talking about. I'm not an owner of any of these haute horology brands. I just admire them all from afar while I'm building a career with a young family. Maybe later I'll have the financial capability to buy into one of the old school holy trinity brands or one of the independents listed in this thread. Until then, I'm content to read, research, and enjoy discussions like these on a cool place like TRF.

Thanks for letting me take part.

[enjoythemusic]

You make good points, and of course we honor the Old School Holy Trinity. So they're set in stone for all of eternity. Your wish is granted.

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Overall, my feelings are let's not suffocate the market either, perhaps even cause a stifling of innovation because no other brands can EVER take part in a Modern Holy Trinity list. Ever!

So... does anyone here know how the Holy Trinity originally came to be? And by whom? Ok, we kinda know, yet is there really anyone to say it can never be updated?

Wiki has the below, but WOW I didn't realize the Holy Trinity is now kinda ancient 1960s history(!). We're talking 50 to 60 years and never an update? Don't get me wrong, the 1960s were cool, yet am sure you'd agree it's time for an update.

WIKI: The Holy Trinity, also known as The Big Three is the name given in horology to the 3 biggest watchmakers in the world. The watch brands are Patek Phillipe, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin, known for their complex and high-end movements.The classification dates back to the decades of 60 and 70 and it is often discussed the inclusion of Rolex and A. Lange & Söhne.

^^^ so yes, it's time we update wiki during 2022.

[enjoythemusic]

Question: In 1960 how many timepieces did the below manufacturers produce?

Patek Phillipe

Audemars Piguet

Vacheron Constantin

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by edyu

I agree with your comment on FPJ even though I'm partial to it.

For Breguet, I'm not certain how the current brand has much to do with the historical Breguet other than the name.

Breguet has been in continuous production since its inception.

It has had different owners, but then so has Patek.

[Krash]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin are still The Trinity in 2022. No change to world order...

I agree.


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Krash

I agree.

If i may ask, am curious of your age?

After various chats, it seems, in some respects, this might also be an older generation versus younger generation situation. Reminds me of my recent discussions with various hi-fi enthusiasts concerning stereo home audio playback versus modern immersivephiles.

Old habits die hard and all that, plus, sure, some fear change. Perhaps longtime herd mentality is now taking its toll and, thus, keeping a closed (minded) system going long after its expiration date. This is not a negative about age per se, am simply trying to best understand the situation in 1960, production numbers back then, how it all started and by whom, etc... that initiated the (now outdated) Old School Holy Trinity.

So we need to honor the past, absolutely. Yet also realize technology and the ability for human handcrafted creation has greatly changed since the 1960s. Am a bit surprised that some fear change, the 1960s is a long bygone era.

[jgh]

FPJ, Lange, VC

[solaire]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

WIKI: The Holy Trinity, also known as The Big Three is the name given in horology to the 3 biggest watchmakers in the world. The watch brands are Patek Phillipe, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin, known for their complex and high-end movements.The classification dates back to the decades of 60 and 70 and it is often discussed the inclusion of Rolex and A. Lange & Söhne.

^^^ so yes, it's time we update wiki during 2022.

Rolex has never been in the discussion for the trinity as it was never a hype or popularity grouping.

Lange for years has been discussed as the modern entry but they are not swiss. Then the question is who do they replace? Is it Patek or Audemars?


If you exclude all 3 then you have

FPJ
Lange
Philippe Dufour

[enjoythemusic]

Good point, yet why does it have to only be Swiss? Maybe 1960s mentality needs a bit of updating. Heck, the global map has changed since the 1960s. I feel the Modern world is about inclusion. Race, color, birthplace, mother tongue... all are welcome. Do you feel that is fair in 2022?

Food For Thought:

1900 is to 1960

As 1960 is to 2020

[jojosnr]

First define the criteria and rubrics for decision making. When all can agree to them, then who fits the criteria will appear. Without that, it is your yardstick vs my yardstick. Can argue till the moo comes home.

[enjoythemusic]

Exactly. This is going to get... interesting.

[enjoythemusic]

Welp, had more chats with friends and posts across two discussion boards, it is a task well above my pay grade. Perhaps left to pros / mods here, or perhaps a few magazines can come together and find consensus. Imho someone should update the list. Keep the great discussion going as maybe Steve and mods do a TRF 'Holy Trinity' list. Perhaps one list for Rolex, one for commercial pieces, one for true indies.... It'd be great to see how the voting goes.

Imagine, the TRF Holy Trinity....

[Easy E]

I would love to see how the likes of Teddy Baldassarre, Tim Mosso, and the Hodinkee staff would respond to this question.

[solaire]

Originally Posted by Easy E

I would love to see how the likes of Teddy Baldassarre, Tim Mosso, and the Hodinkee staff would respond to this question.

Hodinkee would be whoever paid them the most....


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[unknown]

Originally Posted by solaire

Hodinkee would be whoever paid them the most....


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And Tim would advise the brand of which Watchbox has the biggest stock :-)

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by solaire

Hodinkee would be whoever paid them the most....


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Originally Posted by unknown

And Tim would advise the brand of which Watchbox has the biggest stock :-)

Tough crowd today

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Tough crowd today

EXACTLY!

Now imagine navigating the creation of new criteria for a Modern Holy Trinity. Seems simple(!) on the surface, buuuuut other entities.... dare we say some shareholder pressures... or crafty entities with coding prowess to 'ballot stuff' (or a worthless popularity vote versus...).

Anywho, it'll be easy for me to simply craft an update for Wikipedia, with references pointing to this thread, and the one on WPS.

[malba2366]

I would say they stay as is. The obvious contenders for making watches that match (or exceed) the trinity in quality and complications of production pieces are ALS and FPJ...the problem is that these brands have only been around for 20-30 years (ALS was around before but was out of the business for 40 years so not really the same company). The Holy Trinity is equally about the contributions of the Maison to horology and its staying power as it is about the watches it is making today.

Patek and VC both definitely deserve to stay in the trinity. They both have a long history and have been going back and forth creating the most complicated one off timepieces...and they may be the only ones capable of building these pieces.

AP also has a long history, its pieces are impeccably built and they changed the industry with the RO.

[RoscoPico]

love this thread. not sure about a strict independent requirement but I would vote
ALS
FP.J
....GS ?

[solaire]

The thing is you can't just make a new criteria as it then won't be based of the origonal.

You could argue to replace 1 of them but putting in a whole new criteria would require a new name.

That's why people discuss the H3 & the I3 as two different groups the latter being the top 3 independent watch makers.

It all could be debated until we are blue in the face. You could even put forward a grouping of 1x Swiss 1x ROW Lange 1x Japan , if you wanted to spread it across the world (see below) but it would need a different name.

Question to those that put forward Grand Seiko (GS), Why not Credor?
Both use the Micro Artist Studio.


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[rockdrock]

Originally Posted by GB-man

FPJ
FPJ
FPJ

Hahahaha!
+1

[ChetBaker]

Having given this further thought:

PP
VC
Lange

I think these three everyone will be able to get behind looking not only at history, but also finishing and breadth of their catalogue.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by solaire

The thing is you can't just make a new criteria as it then won't be based of the origonal.

What was the original based on, as i can't seem to find hard data? Please provide, many many many thanks.

What were the average production numbers from 1955 to 1960 for when they were somehow ?chosen? by ???? as the supposed "Holy Trinity"?

Does anyone know?

Anyone?

Bueller? Bueller?

We can all agree the 1960s was a bit less open-minded (or dare we say protectionist) about it only being Swiss. The world has changed quite a bit since 1900 to 1960, and again the same period from 1960 to 2020.

Personally am flexible about it not having to be an independant. It makes absolutely zero sense today for it to strictly be limited to Swiss-based manufacturers, as in the 1960s, since today in 2022 there are many fine manufacturers not located in only one country.

Thankfully, today in horology we have 'young kids' doing spectacular craftsmanship and ingenuity the 'grown-up brand' don't do. Am loving the possibilities and options we have in 2022.

The bottom line is we all seem to agree the Old School Holy Trinity is outdated. So we have that as a consensus. The trick is
"Where do we go from here?"