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Old 2 December 2016, 10:58 AM   #1
terryuk
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Question on cleaning balance-wheel hairspring assembly

Hi, this is a question for any experienced tech guys.

After 12+ years having not been serviced, I thought it was about time, so I just did a complete strip-down of my GMT 16750 cal. 3075.

I've cleaned all the parts except for the balance-wheel/hairspring/cock assembly, which I have temporarily put back in place on the bare movement plate.
My question:
Is it safe to suspend this in an ultrasonic cleaning bath without the pivot stones/cap-stones/kif springs in place?
Or should I just remove the end-stones?
Or none of the above?
Is there a better method?

Any advice would be appreciated,

Thanks
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Old 2 December 2016, 11:17 AM   #2
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I've never done it, but I believe Burgeon one dip is the stuff for that. I believe you need to be very careful with the cement for the end of the hairspring.

That said, is there visible build up on the coils? If not, I'd leave it the heck alone unless you have issues with its performance after assembly.
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Old 2 December 2016, 11:33 AM   #3
terryuk
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I've never done it, but I believe Burgeon one dip is the stuff for that. I believe you need to be very careful with the cement for the end of the hairspring.

That said, is there visible build up on the coils? If not, I'd leave it the heck alone unless you have issues with its performance after assembly.
Thanks Jim.
I can't see anything at all on the hairspring under 10x loupe ( I don't have a microscope) . It looks pretty clean, although it's 12+ years since it was last cleaned...

If I don't do it, how do I go about cleaning the balance pivots?
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Old 2 December 2016, 12:35 PM   #4
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For the pivots I'd try grey rodico. Maybe you need to invest in a microscope to see if the pivots need cleaning. It should be dried oil at worst and naphtha or acetone could work too but again, a small drip in the wrong place and you have a mess.
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Old 2 December 2016, 01:35 PM   #5
terryuk
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For the pivots I'd try grey rodico. Maybe you need to invest in a microscope to see if the pivots need cleaning. It should be dried oil at worst and naphtha or acetone could work too but again, a small drip in the wrong place and you have a mess.
Yes, I suppose I should get a good microscope, although I don't do this very often.

Maybe I'll take your advice and just use some Rodico on the pivots, remove and clean the balance jewels, and put the watch back together.

I'm doing mostly what I intended - replace the mainspring and clean and oil everything.

edit Last time I oiled it I used Moebious 9010 on the balance pivots this doesn't dry up like older non-sythetic does it?
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Old 2 December 2016, 04:46 PM   #6
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On all movements I have ever cleaned I removed both the in-setting and cap stone and then closed the spring to nit lose it in the machine. Never had a problem in the Greiner cleaning machine, first bath is ultrasonic.

9010 is the recommended lubricant that you need to use for shock system and also for the escape wheel. (Which is technically not a shock system).
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Old 2 December 2016, 04:48 PM   #7
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I've never done it, but I believe Burgeon one dip is the stuff for that. I believe you need to be very careful with the cement for the end of the hairspring.

That said, is there visible build up on the coils? If not, I'd leave it the heck alone unless you have issues with its performance after assembly.
Ons dip is usually for when the hairspring is still sticky after the cleaning machine and coils stick to each other.
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Old 3 December 2016, 12:15 AM   #8
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I've torn down and rebuilt a few movements but I never mess with the hairspring.

Generally I'd be likely to do more harm than good. If it's beyond my capability or knowledge I just let it go. If it's a problem still, ship it to a pro. I did this with my 1570. ETA stuff is easier because parts are plentiful and you don't have to deal with adjusting the balance wheel.
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Old 3 December 2016, 09:47 AM   #9
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On all movements I have ever cleaned I removed both the in-setting and cap stone and then closed the spring to nit lose it in the machine. Never had a problem in the Greiner cleaning machine, first bath is ultrasonic.

9010 is the recommended lubricant that you need to use for shock system and also for the escape wheel. (Which is technically not a shock system).
Hi, thanks for your input.
Being rather inexperienced, I don't want to take risks, I'm still trying to decide whether to:
1) just remove and clean the cap and hole stones and put the movement back together again, as suggested by Jim, or

2) remove stones for cleaning, and go ahead and suspend the balance assembly in the ultrasonic cleaner to clean hairspring and pivots.

Here's a pic. Does the hairspring look too dirty, or could I let it do?
I know can't see a great deal from this phone pic...
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Old 3 December 2016, 09:52 AM   #10
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Another pic
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Old 3 December 2016, 11:07 AM   #11
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I'd personally leave it alone. If you see little bumps of dust and dirt on it then I get concerned.

Let's see what smarter people than me suggest...
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Old 3 December 2016, 11:40 PM   #12
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Hi,
The balance wheel looks clean. Leave it alone if you cannot see nothing "rare" IMO. What about the amplitude before unassembled?

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana". Groucho Marx.
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Old 4 December 2016, 12:22 AM   #13
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If you're really that inexperienced I'd just clean the stones and not take any risks.
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Old 4 December 2016, 01:30 AM   #14
terryuk
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Thanks guys for your input.
@Porter the amexplitude was not too bad before I started . 290 in DU and DD positions, but it's been like 14 years since it was cleaned.
I think I'll just reassemble it tonight, and get it back on my wrist where it belongs!

I think I will
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Old 4 December 2016, 01:48 AM   #15
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Thanks guys for your input.
@Porter the amexplitude was not too bad before I started . 290 in DU and DD positions, but it's been like 14 years since it was cleaned.
I think I'll just reassemble it tonight, and get it back on my wrist where it belongs!

I think I will
Great! Good luck and let it run strong and fast!!
Keep updated with some pics!!

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana". Groucho Marx.
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Old 4 December 2016, 02:34 AM   #16
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290 is very good amplitude!
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Old 4 December 2016, 04:10 AM   #17
terryuk
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290 is very good amplitude!
I suspect the ~ 290 deg. amplitude is due to the mainspring overwinding rather than anything else.
Years ago, when I 'serviced' (lol) my watch, I put the mainspring in without the so-called braking grease on the barrel wall, due to not having any available.
So it's probably not slipping like it should.

(This time I've got anew mainspring, some Moebius 8217 for that, plus 9415 for the pallets, 9103 (HP1000), KT-22 for the keyless etc. and 9010 for the balance and escape wheel pivots. All freshly purchased from Cousins UK Ltd.)

Cheers
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Old 4 December 2016, 05:06 AM   #18
terryuk
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Great! Good luck and let it run strong and fast!!
Keep updated with some pics!!

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana". Groucho Marx.
Pics?
Here's where it is at the moment!
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Old 4 December 2016, 05:31 AM   #19
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Pics?
Here's where it is at the moment!
Yeahhhh!! Enjoy it! I love every second invested in my watches!!! Takes me to another world!!

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana". Groucho Marx.
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Old 4 December 2016, 12:23 PM   #20
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If you've managed to take the thing apart without messing anything up here is what I suggest. Since the escapement is the most critical part to a watches function and the balance assembly being the very heartbeat, I'd clean it without concern.

The way you seem to be tooled up, I'd loosen the screw holding the spring stud and take the balance assembly off the cock. Using the correct technique, unless you like looking for KIF springs that once airborne never seem to come back to terra firma, remove the cap jewels and peg the hole jewels with that piece of peg wood I saw in your photo. If you have "One Dip" or acetone, dip the balance assembly in it and dry it off on a piece of watch paper. Don't soak it, just dip it.

Put it back together and oil the cock jewel and replace the cap jewel and spring. Done.
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Old 6 December 2016, 12:53 PM   #21
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What he said but running it through the cleaning machine Sans jewels is what we do everyday. Put the jewels in a small parts basket and clean right along with the movement. After you're done look closely at the cap jewel and make sure it is clean and shiny any residue dry oil will not do easiest way to remove is run it on a leather touch stick then one dip dry and assemble. Good luck
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Old 7 December 2016, 04:07 AM   #22
terryuk
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If you've managed to take the thing apart without messing anything up here is what I suggest. Since the escapement is the most critical part to a watches function and the balance assembly being the very heartbeat, I'd clean it without concern.
Thanks Tim.
Re what you said about the balance assembly, I was thinking exactly the same thing, and I wanted to try and do the best I could in that regard.

Being a bit wary of disconnecting the hairspring, I decided to suspend the plate with the balance assembly temporarily back in place, (with pivot stones removed) in the ulrasonic cleaner, followed by an acetone dip for 5 secs. and a warm air dry.
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Old 7 December 2016, 04:30 AM   #23
terryuk
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What he said but running it through the cleaning machine Sans jewels is what we do everyday. Put the jewels in a small parts basket and clean right along with the movement. After you're done look closely at the cap jewel and make sure it is clean and shiny any residue dry oil will not do easiest way to remove is run it on a leather touch stick then one dip dry and assemble. Good luck
Thanks for the encouragement Rikki.

I've built-up the movement now, just the calendar mechanism, dial etc, remaining. (not put balance pivot stones back in yet)
Fitting the train-wheels plate went ok, a bit tricky to line up.
putting the pallets and plate back in place and oiling was ok, but also felt a bit tricky.
I hope to continue tomorrow or Thursday.
Cheers
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Old 7 December 2016, 04:59 AM   #24
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Thanks for the encouragement Rikki.

I've built-up the movement now, just the calendar mechanism, dial etc, remaining. (not put balance pivot stones back in yet)
Fitting the train-wheels plate went ok, a bit tricky to line up.
putting the pallets and plate back in place and oiling was ok, but also felt a bit tricky.
I hope to continue tomorrow or Thursday.
Cheers
Good luck
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Old 10 December 2016, 05:16 AM   #25
terryuk
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Good luck
Thanks guys for the encouagement!

Pleased to report that I have now put my watch back together, and it's on my wrist once again.

Happily, nothing got damaged and it's now been ticking away for around 36 hrs.

However, I'm not 100% happy, as the amplitude is slightly lower than it was before...

I think it could be due to lower mainspring tension.
(I put in a new mainspring, with the barrel grease moebius 8217, but I didn't replace the barrel. )
It might be slipping too early?

It could also be the pallet lubrication.
I used Moebius 9415 - "works wonders for amplitude".
I found it rather tricky placing a small dot of lube on the pallet face, I might have put too much...

At the moment, re timing, all six positions are within 4.5 sec. of each other.
Difference between DU and DD is 1.2 sec.

I'll wait a few days and see how it evolves.
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Old 16 December 2016, 12:49 AM   #26
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Put the watch to your ear and wind it slowly, if it just feels like its winding the barrel is ok, if you hear a big release of tension every now and again the barrel is done in.

The lower amplitude could be from any number of things. Probably bad oiling I would guess. Did you oil the palet stones of the escapement?
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Old 4 November 2020, 10:20 AM   #27
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Remove the balance complete from the cock at the hairspring stud. Remove the shock spring from the cap jewel on the cock and the plate (both cap jewels). Put them in separate baskets to clean to avoid tangling the hairspring. Rinse twice and dry. Using the correct oil, oil the end stones and reassemble. Now oil the pallet stone, re-install into the cock and drop it in the movement and check the beat.....
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