Greubel S Series

[WatchEater666]

Any owners or anyone have experience with these?

The curved crystal is very cool in person and they definitely do not wear as big as they are listed because of the lugless design.

The main thing holding me back is that it seems like they’ve cut down on the finishing levels in some ways on the newer models? Hard to swallow at the price point.

Specifically thinking about the Convexe s2.

[WatchEater666]

buump

[Ichiran]

Antonio Calce’s stint as CEO of Greubel Forsey is ending as he hands over control to his right hand man Michel Nydegger.

https://www.watchpro.com/antonio-cal...chel-nydegger/

“It is with great pleasure that we inform you of a leadership transition at Greubel Forsey. After four years of service as CEO, Antonio Calce will be passing on the torch to his close colleague to assume the CEO position. We express our sincere gratitude to Antonio Calce for his leadership, dedication, and contributions during his tenure, which have enabled us to achieve outstanding results both financially and in organisational maturity,” the letter begins.
 
“As a result, Michel Nydegger will take over the role of CEO. Antonio Calce will assume the role of vice president starting from August 5, 2024, and will ensure a smooth transition with Michel until that date,” it continues.

“Greubel Forsey will remain independent with Robert Greubel, Stephen Forsey, and Antonio Calce continuing as shareholders,” the open letter concludes.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Antonio Calce’s stint as CEO of Greubel Forsey is ending as he hands over control to his right hand man Michel Nydegger.

https://www.watchpro.com/antonio-cal...chel-nydegger/

“It is with great pleasure that we inform you of a leadership transition at Greubel Forsey. After four years of service as CEO, Antonio Calce will be passing on the torch to his close colleague to assume the CEO position. We express our sincere gratitude to Antonio Calce for his leadership, dedication, and contributions during his tenure, which have enabled us to achieve outstanding results both financially and in organisational maturity,” the letter begins.
 
“As a result, Michel Nydegger will take over the role of CEO. Antonio Calce will assume the role of vice president starting from August 5, 2024, and will ensure a smooth transition with Michel until that date,” it continues.

“Greubel Forsey will remain independent with Robert Greubel, Stephen Forsey, and Antonio Calce continuing as shareholders,” the open letter concludes.

I’m curious if anyone has any strong feelings about this or how the brand is doing overall. I’ve seen comments both here and elsewhere about production being increased and the quality of the brand’s finishing decreasing. I’m not an owner and haven’t seen one of their watches in person in quite a while so just curious how others are feeling about GF’s future.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by FrugalGreubel

I’m curious if anyone has any strong feelings about this or how the brand is doing overall. I’ve seen comments both here and elsewhere about production being increased and the quality of the brand’s finishing decreasing. I’m not an owner and haven’t seen one of their watches in person in quite a while so just curious how others are feeling about GF’s future.

4-year CEO to me is a very short stint for watch brands as their strategies tend to be longer-term. I hear rumors about a takeover by a consortium but not sure how or when that will happen?

I have earlier commented on their planned production to 500 pieces annually from a base of 120 just a few years ago; lack of interior angles and shallow anglage for their entry watches between 200k to 300k (which constitute 60% to 70% of their production); and size of their watches. Maybe it's just me but I always have other options at their equivalent prices, or maybe I simply cannot afford GF.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

4-year CEO to me is a very short stint for watch brands as their strategies tend to be longer-term. I hear rumors about a takeover by a consortium but not sure how or when that will happen?

I have earlier commented on their planned production to 500 pieces annually from a base of 120 just a few years ago; lack of interior angles and shallow anglage for their entry watches between 200k to 300k (which constitute 60% to 70% of their production); and size of their watches. Maybe it's just me but I always have other options at their equivalent prices, or maybe I simply cannot afford GF.

Thanks for the insight. I alway wanted to own a GF, but as time has gone on my opinion of the brand has gone down and like you said there’s just simply more interesting options at that price point right now. The large size also doesn’t help. Still love some of their stuff but it’s just so pricey.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

4-year CEO to me is a very short stint for watch brands as their strategies tend to be longer-term. I hear rumors about a takeover by a consortium but not sure how or when that will happen?

I have earlier commented on their planned production to 500 pieces annually from a base of 120 just a few years ago; lack of interior angles and shallow anglage for their entry watches between 200k to 300k (which constitute 60% to 70% of their production); and size of their watches. Maybe it's just me but I always have other options at their equivalent prices, or maybe I simply cannot afford GF.

Originally Posted by FrugalGreubel

Thanks for the insight. I alway wanted to own a GF, but as time has gone on my opinion of the brand has gone down and like you said there’s just simply more interesting options at that price point right now. The large size also doesn’t help. Still love some of their stuff but it’s just so pricey.

I run a lower middle market PE firm focused on companies that are pretty much the same size as GF and while we aren't in that industry or in Europe, the comp structure tends to be cash + stock options where the CEO really makes $$$ on the options. My guess is that he didn't hit EBITDA growth targets and left b/c that is where the juice is in your comp. Also IIRC he was previously running Panerai which is MUCH bigger and running a big co is very different than one sub $100m in rev. Two totally different skill sets. But yeah, you generally expect the CEO to stay with you until the company is sold to the next PE firm or a strategic acquirer like Richemont/LVMH/Swatch.

The new CEO seems very unimpressive. Guessing he was a bit of a fill in. I'm sure he's nice, but I would never hire anyone with a track record of nothing impressive to run one of our companies. Need someone that has scaled & sold before...but IDK what their owners are like and what growth targets are. Maybe they don't want to make a lot of money, which is fine.

On the watches...agree with both of you. I like the aesthetic of the newer watches and they are amazing in person but the retail price is insulting VS what other independents are doing in the same price range or even for ~40% less.

It feels like they are trying to turn Greubel into a luxury brand instead of a watch brand for nerds...

I don't blame them since nerds are hard to please, but I'm not sure it will really work.

[dchang81]

I like greubel, will never be able to afford them, but that article honestly was not confidence inspiring

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by FrugalGreubel

I’m curious if anyone has any strong feelings about this or how the brand is doing overall. I’ve seen comments both here and elsewhere about production being increased and the quality of the brand’s finishing decreasing. I’m not an owner and haven’t seen one of their watches in person in quite a while so just curious how others are feeling about GF’s future.

I felt that they were reducing finishing and looking to be RM for people that are smarter (about watches, maybe generally) than RM owners.

However, I spoke with a GF rep at Watchtime and I turned my opinion around.

They are focusing on keeping their finishing and horology chops strong. There will be an ultra-finished model coming out to raise the bar now that the field has caught up a bit.

Further, they are coming out with a Handmade 2 soonish and a Handmade 3 in the works.

I still think a lot of their watches are pinnacle-level watchmaking that look like garbage, but that is subjective.

[GB-man]

Definitely feels like they want chase the RM market but that’s a near impossible task. The branding isn’t there and never will be. Like grand seiko pretending they are going to take Rolex lunch money.

[RRJ]

I was invited to tour the manufacture a couple of months ago and strongly disagree with some of the comments on here. Even on the Balancier S2 every single wheel, visible and invisible has bevelled spokes creating countless interior angles. Every single part on all watches are hand finished.

Their finishing is still brilliant, but lots of other brands now offer comparable finishing. Imo that doesn‘t make theirs any worse.

Design is obviously very subjective, but I love them.

[Gebbeth]

I've never seen a GF in the flesh, only in pictures, so I'm not personally in-the-know about the brand. What I've seen has been in pictures and the occasional reviews from Tim Mosso (who obviously has an interest in selling watches, but I trust his opinions about them).

IF they are planning to move away from their rarified level of watchmaking, then I think it's the wrong move. There are too many players in that area, and if finishing or architecture is sacrificed to get there, then I don't know what GF would offer that's different than higher tier luxury brands. Certainly, if they keep their higher price points in doing so, then that's going to be a failure.

But in the current space they are playing, it's hard to justify GF prices either. Their designs span whimsical to very fancy, but my opinion is that they don't have a singular design philosophy or look. If you look at an MB&F, you know what that is. If you look at a Gronefeld, you know what that is. Heck, if you look at Lange & Heyne, you know what that is too. With GF, do you have to guess if not for the name plastered on the dial?

So, in my opinion, if you buy a GF, you are one of a very few group of people who know of and own a GF, even amongst nerds. As a buyer, if you are into that kind of stealth ownership, that's great, but it comes at a very steep price.

How many of you are there? Apparently, not enough for GF investors. And the GF appeal will always be an extremely limited market.

So if investors want more return, then GF needs a lower priced model that can be made in slightly greater numbers, appeal to a broader set of high-net-worth individuals, and adjust production techniques to boot.

That's a HUGE risk.

If you had a choice between a Journe, MB&F, Gronefeld, Lange & Heyne, high-end ALS, high-end Patek, DeBethune, or if you are a baller, an RM.....what would you choose?

If you said GF, you are a GF super fan....got to admit it. And there's not many of you, for better or worse.

[ajw45]

Calce said the classic line would be maintained and the sports line would be there to drive volume ($$$) so more of an add than a replace, supposedly. Afaik whatever "classic" watches are still in production continue without change to the design or level / quality of manufacture and finish. For me, the pre-Calce / classic watches actually designed by Greubel and Forsey are all pretty freaking special and worth the $ ... on the pre-owned market.

I like the Calce era watches tbh but I think they need to get hit harder with the depreciation stick because there's just too many made and there's more and closer competition than some of the classic watches. That said, he's moved a lot of watches (for GF) and very very few Convexe Double Balance, GMT, or 24 seconds Architecture watches have come up for resale so people are liking them and keeping them keeping values up. When the convexe watches start to show depreciation like the classic watches I'm in, but I'm cheap and maybe that's a pipe dream.

Now that we enter the post-Calce era who knows. I think you buy the watch, not the brand. If the brand gets bought by Jacob & Co tomorrow I'll be happy I got the GF I wanted before all that's left in the catalog are bedazzled disco balls.

[ChetBaker]

Maybe it's time for a bit of a shake-out in the high-end space. There's too many brands, and too many brands that have been struggling for some time, GF seemingly being one of them. Imagine what it could do to some of the other makers if all of a sudden there's 50m of sales flowing back into the market. I'd much rather have fewer healthy brands than many that are constantly having to adapt their mid to longterm strategy.

[kunlun]

Watchesbysjx.com reports that some well-known person in high end watchmaking will step in by the fall.

I wonder who?

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by kunlun

Watchesbysjx.com reports that some well-known person in high end watchmaking will step in by the fall.

I wonder who?

I initially thought of JCB but he has invested massively into his own Biver brand which his son will carry on. That kind of rules him out.

Then it occurs to me FHB is currently taking a 6-month break after leaving AP, and he mentioned he will be back. He is only 52. It's my wild guess but he appears to be a good match with GF? He is the best marketing machine in the business and GF needs help on that front. He has scaled AP to today's size, and this might be an interesting challenge for him to take on.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Maybe it's time for a bit of a shake-out in the high-end space. There's too many brands, and too many brands that have been struggling for some time, GF seemingly being one of them. Imagine what it could do to some of the other makers if all of a sudden there's 50m of sales flowing back into the market. I'd much rather have fewer healthy brands than many that are constantly having to adapt their mid to longterm strategy.

Out of curiosity what other high end brands are struggling?

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by kunlun

Watchesbysjx.com reports that some well-known person in high end watchmaking will step in by the fall.

I wonder who?

Fine, I’ll do it :)

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by FrugalGreubel

Out of curiosity what other high end brands are struggling?

De Bethune’s sale to Watchbox surely wasn’t done out of luxury. Parmigiani is for sale and it seems they’re struggling to find a buyer. And then there’s brands like Bovet, HYT, or even Urwerk that target a very small demographic and you wonder who purchases their watches. There’s many brands that sell way below RRP new or used, which is not viable if you’re in high-end luxury unless you have deep pockets, a second business line manufacturing components for others, or a very clear path towards solid growth. Some consolidation is bound to happen and beneficial to the stronger players that will remain.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I initially thought of JCB but he has invested massively into his own Biver brand which his son will carry on. That kind of rules him out.

Then it occurs to me FHB is currently taking a 6-month break after leaving AP, and he mentioned he will be back. He is only 52. It's my wild guess but he appears to be a good match with GF? He is the best marketing machine in the business and GF needs help on that front. He has scaled AP to today's size, and this might be an interesting challenge for him to take on.

Good thinking, I'd love to see it!

[Ichiran]

To be fair to GF, their new entry-level Balancier 3 has several sharp interior angles. They have emphasized that twice in their own weblink and they are very visible in stock images (comparatively, sharp interior angles were not mentioned at all in the S² and Double Balancier links). Maybe they have heard and reacted to feedbacks from collectors:
https://greubelforsey.com/en/watches/balancier-3

"All these bridges feature Greubel Forsey’s signature hand finishes: a curved polished surface, polished bevels and hand-polished screws. Each bridge includes its share of sharp internal angles and a curved profile that make the hand finishes particularly complex—details that will certainly be appreciated by collectors."
&
"And finally, the finishing. The wide bridge supporting the hour and minute hands is the best illustration of this. With its curved, three-dimensional, openworked design, multiple levels, numerous sharp internal angles, and refined arm connecting with the small seconds, it is a true tour de force."

That's a good effort and I look forward to their new releases under the new management.

[Gebbeth]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

De Bethune’s sale to Watchbox surely wasn’t done out of luxury. Parmigiani is for sale and it seems they’re struggling to find a buyer. And then there’s brands like Bovet, HYT, or even Urwerk that target a very small demographic and you wonder who purchases their watches. There’s many brands that sell way below RRP new or used, which is not viable if you’re in high-end luxury unless you have deep pockets, a second business line manufacturing components for others, or a very clear path towards solid growth. Some consolidation is bound to happen and beneficial to the stronger players that will remain.

Just my 2 cents but does anyone buy Biver? That just seems a bridge too far with awful timing to boot. When I think of Biver, I see a marketer....not a designer or a watchmaker, so I don't get the appeal. Not a fan of their initial watch designs either. Rather pedestrian...and the Biver logo is so prominent that it scream EGO TRIP, and it's kinda off-putting.

As for DeBethune.......I've tried to like their designs. I try to give it the benefit of the doubt. I listen to Tim Mosso's endless, ceaseless, unflinching, drum beat of praise.....AND.....I'm still not convinced. I just....can't....do....it. I've just come to the conclusion that for me, they are the creations of a design aesthetics department too caught up with themselves to be really honest about what these design actually look like in the end. AND, they are hideously expensive...unreasonably so. Again, just my opinion.

AND, no one is going to make me think otherwise that their Star Trek baseplate designs look tacky.

And the Digitale that Mosso loves so much. My god. It's is eye-buring ugly. I just don't get it. It's just......objectively, it's ugly has hell.

Sorry, got to get that out.

So if they are struggling.....I mean.....NOT SURPRISED!

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

Just my 2 cents but does anyone buy Biver? That just seems a bridge too far with awful timing to boot. When I think of Biver, I see a marketer....not a designer or a watchmaker, so I don't get the appeal. Not a fan of their initial watch designs either. Rather pedestrian...and the Biver logo is so prominent that it scream EGO TRIP, and it's kinda off-putting.

I’m not a fan of the Biver watches at all. They just don’t speak to me at all and with unlimited funds I wouldn’t consider owning one. But there seems to be enough fans with enough money to keep the brand going for now.

As for DeBethune.......I've tried to like their designs. I try to give it the benefit of the doubt. I listen to Tim Mosso's endless, ceaseless, unflinching, drum beat of praise.....AND.....I'm still not convinced. I just....can't....do....it. I've just come to the conclusion that for me, they are the creations of a design aesthetics department too caught up with themselves to be really honest about what these design actually look like in the end. AND, they are hideously expensive...unreasonably so. Again, just my opinion.

AND, no one is going to make me think otherwise that their Star Trek baseplate designs look tacky.

And the Digitale that Mosso loves so much. My god. It's is eye-buring ugly. I just don't get it. It's just......objectively, it's ugly has hell.

Sorry, got to get that out.

So if they are struggling.....I mean.....NOT SURPRISED!

I really like DB, but I’ll be the first to admit not all their design choices are winners. A lot of their watches are still frustratingly oversized and I agree the prices don’t make any sense.

But still…I like the brand. I like that watches like this exist.

As I’ve annoyingly commented elsewhere numerous times, I am a giant fan of the the newly announced DB28XS Purple Rain. If I was able to make that purchase happen, I would’ve.

But yea, I get your criticisms.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

De Bethune’s sale to Watchbox surely wasn’t done out of luxury. Parmigiani is for sale and it seems they’re struggling to find a buyer. And then there’s brands like Bovet, HYT, or even Urwerk that target a very small demographic and you wonder who purchases their watches. There’s many brands that sell way below RRP new or used, which is not viable if you’re in high-end luxury unless you have deep pockets, a second business line manufacturing components for others, or a very clear path towards solid growth. Some consolidation is bound to happen and beneficial to the stronger players that will remain.

Forgot to say thank you for responding to my question above.

Somehow I totally forgot about HYT’s issues even though they’ve talked about it quite openly. Just slipped my mind.

And I wasn’t aware Bovet had their own problems. I actually really like their watches but I feel like I never see them talked about which is a shame.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

Just my 2 cents but does anyone buy Biver? That just seems a bridge too far with awful timing to boot. When I think of Biver, I see a marketer....not a designer or a watchmaker, so I don't get the appeal. Not a fan of their initial watch designs either. Rather pedestrian...and the Biver logo is so prominent that it scream EGO TRIP, and it's kinda off-putting.

As for DeBethune.......I've tried to like their designs. I try to give it the benefit of the doubt. I listen to Tim Mosso's endless, ceaseless, unflinching, drum beat of praise.....AND.....I'm still not convinced. I just....can't....do....it. I've just come to the conclusion that for me, they are the creations of a design aesthetics department too caught up with themselves to be really honest about what these design actually look like in the end. AND, they are hideously expensive...unreasonably so. Again, just my opinion.

AND, no one is going to make me think otherwise that their Star Trek baseplate designs look tacky.

And the Digitale that Mosso loves so much. My god. It's is eye-buring ugly. I just don't get it. It's just......objectively, it's ugly has hell.

Sorry, got to get that out.

So if they are struggling.....I mean.....NOT SURPRISED!

I'm a fan of De Bethune design... now. I wasn't from the start so i hear you. Might not change your mind but I posted a while back what came unscrewed in my brain that turned me into a fan:

De Bethune & Zanetta

[ajw45]

.