Incoming: Untouched RED 1680

[jdmi32]

Aww man, I missed the pics! I always enjoy these incomings on the vintage side and top tier examples are so hard to find nowadays.

[Alex The Watch Guy]

No need to take the pictures down, as noted, the watch is an extraordinary example and should be celebrated as such....thank you for sharing! I for one value the opinions of my fellow members (here or elsewhere), and would welcome an open discussion, that is after all what these forums are for.

Whether it's unpolished/untouched, who knows, no one will ever know unless you are the original owner. But, that's what makes this hobby interesting, the investigative leg work and your intuition/gut at it's best. I recommend reading the first chapter of Malcom Gladwell's book "Blink", for quite an interesting perspective.

Enjoy your beautiful watch, tune in to the signal and not the noise.

Best,

Alex

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Alex The Watch Guy

No need to take the pictures down, as noted, the watch is an extraordinary example and should be celebrated as such....thank you for sharing! I for one value the opinions of my fellow members (here or elsewhere), and would welcome an open discussion, that is after all what these forums are for.

Whether it's unpolished/untouched, who knows, no one will ever know unless you are the original owner. But, that's what makes this hobby interesting, the investigative leg work and your intuition/gut at it's best. I recommend reading the first chapter of Malcom Gladwell's book "Blink", for quite an interesting perspective.

Enjoy your beautiful watch, tune in to the signal and not the noise.

Best,

Alex

Alex, even tho I am not the original owner, I can get a pretty good idea from looking at this first hand. What some members do not realize is how much case material has to be removed when you "recut" a case ABC OR LAWW style. They are removing significant amounts of case surface material, down to the same depth as the scratches they are removing...

Even when you re cut a chamfer on a lug to make it crisp again, you have to completely straighten out the case from the preveious polish job.

My point was, that this case has so much metal, that there is no way it has ever been recut. Look at the crown guards, the thickness of the lugs.. when watch cases have undergone that type of surgery of a case recut, you can tell, you lose metal.

The mint sharp condition of the bezel and insert also tell you that this watch has been practically unworn since purchased. The age and ware all match. No one part looks newer than another.

So if you wish to investigate further as long as some members can be a little more tactful and offer some supporting information behind their bold statements then I don't mind sharing at all.

Here are some close ups of the case.


Crown guards top view


The lugs


Crown guard side view lots of metal..


Case side lots of little scratches and nicks but nothing major.


Beefy lugs.. and very crisp in between the lugs. This is an area that can never be polished.

[scooba]

I have bought several pieces from Andrew and I'm sure he wouldn't say anything he didn't believe true, For the record over on Vintage Rolex Forums ,the owner Erik Ku , has banned the use of the word unpolished/untouched on any For Sale item , For the exact reason that has come up on this thread, Everyone has a opinion, It isn't fair on Andrew or Alex for people to post there opinions , Yes its a free world , Why don't we agree its a stunning example and the buyer is a lucky guy to have ended up with it in his collection

[roh123]

I don't really understand the discussion to be honest. It's a great looking watch and it has the original shape and is in absolutely stunning condition.

Congrats!

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

I don't really understand the discussion to be honest. It's a great looking watch and it has the original shape and is in absolutely stunning condition.

Congrats!

Thank you so much..

Member "timetogo" kept spouting off in a rude way that the case has been refinished but offered absolutely no supporting comments to back up his statments. I even messaged him asking him to elaborate and nothing. So when members act like that on threads, I just figure they are trying to stir the pot for entertainment purposes. So I posted pictures under white light above, so members can see for themselves. I have spoken with few members and collectors here via pm and they also agree this piece is unpolished.

Thank you again for your supportive words.

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Thank you so much..

Member "timetogo" kept spouting off in a rude way that the case has been refinished but offered absolutely no supporting comments to back up his statments. I even messaged him asking him to elaborate and nothing. So when members act like that on threads, I just figure they are trying to stir the pot for entertainment purposes. So I posted pictures under white light above, so members can see for themselves. I have spoken with few members and collectors here via pm and they also agree this piece is unpolished.

Thank you again for your supportive words.

Hey Bud! This was my comment to you:

The case was redone near perfect.
That is quite an example - Congrats!

You case was very nicely done, even if just a nice refinish to bring out the prominent features, deep chamfers cleaned out and also the perpendicular lines on the top of the lugs..

Keep dreaming it is untouched or unpolished (as you call it)...LOL

I am only taking this stance with you because of the nasty PM that you sent, so if you can't take the heat in the kitchen and accept the truth... Remove your pictures again... and stare at it under a microscope more...

I will tell you again that this watch is a very fine specimen...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

Hey Bud! This was my comment to you:

The case was redone near perfect.
That is quite an example - Congrats!

You case was very nicely done, even if just a nice refinish to bring out the prominent features, deep chamfers cleaned out and also the perpendicular lines on the top of the lugs..

Keep dreaming it is untouched or unpolished (as you call it)...LOL

I am only taking this stance with you because of the nasty PM that you sent, so if you can't take the heat in the kitchen and accept the truth... Remove your pictures again... and stare at it under a microscope more...

I will tell you again that this watch is a very fine specimen...

I sent you a nasty pm? My 2 pm's were very polite, but after your terrible responses about Andrew Shear and myself, I believe the only thing I stated in response to your rude message was that maybe since you keeping opening up a big mouth on my thread, you can state some fact behind your statment.

But your childish antagonizing remarks actually show me you really are coocoo for coco puffs..

Again, all you keep saying are statements to bash my watch without anything to back them up.
I mean, your responses and statments are rude. Does anyone else think this guy is out of line or is it just me?

I asked him in pm and I have asked again and again what his reasonings are to believe my watch is refinished and he won't give one.

I have spoken with few well respected forum experts already on this matter and everyone is under the same consensus that this watch is not polished. I have nothing to hide and have posted detailed pictures of the case... Anyone can investigate and create an informative discussion behind any opinion, but this guy is not being constructive, rather just distructive

So now I know this guy is just acting ridiculous looking for entertainment it seems. Because a normal sound individual would not be acting this way.

Ps: thank you truly for taking away all the joy from my new incoming and killing this thread

[Thegr8one]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I sent you a nasty pm? My 2 pm's were very polite, but after your terrible responses about Andrew Shear and myself, I believe the only thing I stated in response to your rude message was that maybe since you keeping opening up a big mouth on my thread, you can state some fact behind your statment.

But your childish antagonizing remarks actually show me you really are coocoo for coco puffs..

Again, all you keep saying are statements to bash my watch without anything to back them up.
I mean, your responses and statments are rude. Does anyone else think this guy is out of line or is it just me?

I asked him in pm and I have asked again and again what his reasonings are to believe my watch is refinished and he won't give one.

I have spoken with few well respected forum experts already on this matter and everyone is under the same consensus that this watch is not polished. I have nothing to hide and have posted detailed pictures of the case... Anyone can investigate and create an informative discussion behind any opinion, but this guy is not being constructive, rather just distructive

So now I know this guy is just acting ridiculous looking for entertainment it seems. Because a normal sound individual would not be acting this way.

Ps: thank you truly for taking away all the joy from my new incoming and killing this thread

Honestly SubKing, don't let this guy take your joy. If you do, he wins. You have an amazing watch that any of us would be thrilled to have. And you have done your due diligence and asked the experts, who all agree that it is untouched. Why waste one more second trying to justify it with the one detractor. Wear it, love it and show it off!

[Rolex addict]

Incredible. Congrats!!!

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Thegr8one

Honestly SubKing, don't let this guy take your joy. If you do, he wins. You have an amazing watch that any of us would be thrilled to have. And you have done your due diligence and asked the experts, who all agree that it is untouched. Why waste one more second trying to justify it with the one detractor. Wear it, love it and show it off!

You are right. I guess it's hard sometimes for me to not let negative comments get to me, but you're right. Life is just to darn short. and thank you

[Gina Marie]

Springer and TGT are some cats that are in the know. I do trust their opinion. That is why i come to the forums.....to get info and other opinions. I don't know if the watch is a virgin case or not......if springer and TGT have concerns about the depth of the camfers that is something to consider. in reality the stakes could not be lower and the tensions could not be higher.....it is a nice watch, with a really nice case....virgin or not. Would you have bought it if you had known that it was cleaned up? I would have proceeded anyway. Unpolished is an abused term that means something different to each person. I would not dwell. Are you happy? yes.....Don't post here unless you are ready to take the good with the bad. That is how it works. Nice watch btw.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Gina Marie

Springer and TGT are some cats that are in the know. I do trust their opinion. That is why i come to the forums.....to get info and other opinions. I don't know if the watch is a virgin case or not......if springer and TGT have concerns about the depth of the camfers that is something to consider. in reality the stakes could not be lower and the tensions could not be higher.....it is a nice watch, with a really nice case....virgin or not. Would you have bought it if you had known that it was cleaned up? I would have proceeded anyway. Unpolished is an abused term that means something different to each person. I would not dwell. Are you happy? yes.....Don't post here unless you are ready to take the good with the bad. That is how it works. Nice watch btw.

Gina,

Allow me to try and explain myself in order to respond to your post.

This was an incoming thread, so I wasn't looking for opinions, because I know exactly what I have. I was only looking to share some pictures that I thought everyone would enjoy.

But again, this is a public forum so I know you will get a couple insults along the way sure. It's almost to be expected today.

I wouldn't hold too much weight with who is "in the know" and who isn't.. I have been a member just as long as many and longer than the two members you stated. Not that it matters, but your post count doesn't dictate what a member knows or who he knows.

It's hard to trust the opinions of a member that speaks the way "Timetogo" speaks...

I can show many many unpolished examples and have, of same period sub cases with same chamfer style. But this member thinks it's ok to make a long time vintage dealer like Shear look like a liar and tries to make me look like I have no idea what I am talking about, then that is not ok with me and I take that very personally yes.

There are far more collectors and dealers that know more than this member does about vintage and I respect them and their constructive opinions. The positive comments and members that agree with the watches condition far out number the couple negative comments here, but the bad unfortunately always outweighs the good in most cases.

The word unpolished has been abused a lot over the years, I can 100% agree, which is why all dealers and collectors are extra careful about what they call unpolished today.

If "timetogo" only argument is the chamfer depth, which it seems you are speaking for him on that, then obviously he doesn't realize that there are variations of factory case polishes from year to year. One thing rolex was not; was consistent back then. There are no answers for why or how they did some of the things they did, only speculation. But variations are what makes vintage so interesting and gives them character

[jdmi32]

Looks like a fantastic piece from the few pics available. I'm sure the dial is the same as it came from Andrew. Keep on putting up pics of that watch! A beauty like that deserves to be seen.

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by SubKing

If "timetogo" only argument is the chamfer depth, which it seems you are speaking for him on that, then obviously he doesn't realize that there are variations of factory case polishes from year to year. One thing rolex was not was consistent back then. There are no answers for why or how they did some of the things they did, only speculation. But variations is what makes vintage so interesting and gives them character

Read my last response...

"You case was very nicely done, even if just a nice refinish to bring out the prominent features, deep chamfers cleaned out and also the perpendicular lines on the top of the lugs.."

Give it up man..

I am well aware differing depths of chamfers in earlier models, even though you have been around longer but can't notice that it was lightly touched again... LOL

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

Read my last response...

"You case was very nicely done, even if just a nice refinish to bring out the prominent features, deep chamfers cleaned out and also the perpendicular lines on the top of the lugs.."

Give it up man..

I am well aware differing depths of chamfers in earlier models, even though you have been around longer but can't notice that it was lightly touched again... LOL

Norman, I just don't see why you have it under your skin to rain on his parade though?? Regardless of your opinion........and that is all it is....just another opinion....Why do you feel it is your place to point out that you feel it has been retouched??

My mother always taught me, if I didn't have anything nice to say...........

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by Jason71

Norman, I just don't see why you have it under your skin to rain on his parade though?? Regardless of your opinion........and that is all it is....just another opinion....Why do you feel it is your place to point out that you feel it has been retouched??

My mother always taught me, if I didn't have anything nice to say...........

His email rubbed me the wrong way.
His refusal to consider this fact is hilarious though..

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

His email rubbed me the wrong way.
His refusal to consider this fact is hilarious though..

I get it......you should always consider alternative answers and never come to one conclusion without weighing-in with all possibilities. However.......A watch that looks like that????? From no-less than the MAN Andrew Shear???? Who honestly cares!!!!!!

Admit it........All of us would DIE TO OWN THIS WATCH.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Jason71

I get it......you should always consider alternative answers and never come to one conclusion without weighing-in with all possibilities. However.......A watch that looks like that????? From no-less than the MAN Andrew Shear???? Who honestly cares!!!!!!

Admit it........All of us would DIE TO OWN THIS WATCH.

Thank you Jason!

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by Jason71

I get it......you should always consider alternative answers and never come to one conclusion without weighing-in with all possibilities. However.......A watch that looks like that????? From no-less than the MAN Andrew Shear???? Who honestly cares!!!!!!

Admit it........All of us would DIE TO OWN THIS WATCH.

It is an absolute exceptional timepiece...
I am sure anyone would want this watch but doubt they would want to pay the price the MAN was asking...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

It is an absolute exceptional timepiece...
I am sure anyone would want this watch but doubt they would want to pay the price the MAN was asking...

Are you kidding me?
What is your problem?

You are so incredibly rude and back handed.

Enjoy your thread Norman, I'm outta here.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Gina Marie

Springer and TGT are some cats that are in the know. I do trust their opinion. That is why i come to the forums.....to get info and other opinions. I don't know if the watch is a virgin case or not......if springer and TGT have concerns about the depth of the camfers that is something to consider. in reality the stakes could not be lower and the tensions could not be higher.....it is a nice watch, with a really nice case....virgin or not. Would you have bought it if you had known that it was cleaned up? I would have proceeded anyway. Unpolished is an abused term that means something different to each person. I would not dwell. Are you happy? yes.....Don't post here unless you are ready to take the good with the bad. That is how it works. Nice watch btw.

Just to clear the air and respond to Gina Marie's comment, I have not posted any of my concerns or opinions about Sub King's 1680 - whether it is polished or not. I did comment on a sample photo that Swish posted and again, my comment to him was that there was no way anyone could tell by one photo whether the case or watch was unpolished, and frankly, what difference does it make anyway - a nice case is a nice case.

As far as timetogo is concerned, he has been around vintage long before many of these self-proclaimed experts have been around this hobby. He said nothing that I thought was out-of-line. We all know the dealer/seller that sold this watch and that he is known for selling "unpolished" watches whether one agrees with his assessment or not. I believe timetogo's opinion is based on previous "unpolished" watches sold by this dealer and TTG is fully entitled to his opinion.

My opinion regarding this watch is an opinion too, and frankly, enough has been said already and I am not going to comment. If Subking believes the watch is unpolished, then that is all that really matters. If others believe it is not, then they too are entitled to their opinions and they should be respected which has not been the case when reading some of these responses. The comments directed at timetogo were really uncalled for and frankly, I would value his opinion much more than others here or in NYC, especially if I were looking for an honest opinion.

This red Sub purchased by Subking is a very nice example, whether original or not. I've owned a few "genuine," original examples myself and believe me when I say - there aren't many out there in decent to excellent condition.

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

It is an absolute exceptional timepiece...
I am sure anyone would want this watch but doubt they would want to pay the price the MAN was asking...

Considering the fact that you have no idea what he paid.

[Gina Marie]

Originally Posted by Jason71

Considering the fact that you have no idea what he paid.

Mr. Shear is not running a 501(c)3. He has built a clientele over the years and usually lists his items on the high side of the market. Which is his right. However, he does not give away watches. Especially ones that nice, which I would assume sold for north of 15k.

I think it was an assumption based on previous experience by the poster. My experience with Andrew Shear has always been positive. He stands behind his product and will accept a return. For that security you pay more. It is what it is.

[Alex The Watch Guy]

Well said, JP. I too value my fellow forum members opinions, specially folks who are pillars of this community such as yourself and TTG to name a few. The OP did not seek anyone's opinion, understood, but I don't see the harm in what TTG had to say either. As everyone single person has stated (including TTG), this is an exceptional watch, polished or not, I would be proud to own such specimen. Clearly, there is something deeper here than meets the eye.....I don't get it.

[TimeToGo]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I sent you a nasty pm? My 2 pm's were very polite, but after your terrible responses about Andrew Shear and myself, I believe the only thing I stated in response to your rude message was that maybe since you keeping opening up a big mouth on my thread, you can state some fact behind your statment.

You mention about the terrible responses that I made about Andrew Shear and yourself...." in an email. I will let others read my actual response for other to judge this ridiculous claim.

This was my response to you (Cut and pasted):

"This is a public forum and everyone's opinion will be sated as seen.

For you to think that it is an untouched specimen is another example of your/Andrew perception...

Chill, this is just a forum..

You have an exceptional example there but untouched... that is another one for the books.."

[Michael M.]

This thread reminds me of a quote I once saw in someones signature..

"Chill, it's just a watch forum."

[Fredrik]

I usually look at the lug holes to see if a case seems to be unpolished.

Springer posted a picture recently of the lug holes of a GMT he has. I agree with him on that one that it is most likely never polished. I also have a 1680 myself that I know has never been polished with identical looking lug holes.

The 1680 in this thread seems to be unpolished looking at the pictures, but there are/were no good enough pictures of the lug holes to make a definite call for me. You often get some reflections in the lug holes even on unpolished watches that resembles the bowling you see on polished watches.

Here is the post from springer:

http://www.rolexforums.com/showpost....8&postcount=19


Oh, and you have a very nice watch!

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

I usually look at the lug holes to see if a case seems to be unpolished.

Springer posted a picture recently of the lug holes of a GMT he has. I agree with him on that one that it is most likely never polished. I also have a 1680 myself that I know has never been polished with identical looking lug holes.

The 1680 in this thread seems to be unpolished looking at the pictures, but there are/were no good enough pictures of the lug holes to make a definite call for me. You often get some reflections in the lug holes even on unpolished watches that resembles the bowling you see on polished watches.

Here is the post from springer:

http://www.rolexforums.com/showpost....8&postcount=19


Oh, and you have a very nice watch!

Hi there,

Thank you so much for the compliment.

his watch in that link you provided is a completely different watch and era, so I don't think it's a very good comparison to mine as cases were shaped different. But if you want to have a look at a lug hole to study further, by all means. Curious to hear your opinion.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

I usually look at the lug holes to see if a case seems to be unpolished.

Springer posted a picture recently of the lug holes of a GMT he has. I agree with him on that one that it is most likely never polished. I also have a 1680 myself that I know has never been polished with identical looking lug holes.

The 1680 in this thread seems to be unpolished looking at the pictures, but there are/were no good enough pictures of the lug holes to make a definite call for me. You often get some reflections in the lug holes even on unpolished watches that resembles the bowling you see on polished watches.

Here is the post from springer:

http://www.rolexforums.com/showpost....8&postcount=19


Oh, and you have a very nice watch!

For me, and based on my experience and forensic training 35 years ago, the totality of the item being examined is paramount and focus should not be on just one or two items - in this case, that being lug holes or the size of a chamfer although they all play into the equation and analysis.

Collectors have driven the market prices for unpolished watches, but I can say that, based on my experience, a nice case with a proper finish is a very welcome watch to most collectors. Many watches and their accessories are being incorrectly marketed these days because of the prices being paid for nice and/or correct examples.

I don't have to tell those here that know me about the number of private requests I get every week to evaluate potential purchases - like several others here that get the same inquiries. The number of collectors looking for unpolished watches is amazing and is totally driven by the internet hype. Personally, I've owned very few nice, unpolished watches during the past few decades of collecting but they are a bonus when one can find a nice, honest example.