Chinese buy new...will they go vintage?

[Lol-x]

From all accounts the Chinese buy a huge amount of new Rolex watches these days....

However, is the Chinese passion for Rolex likely to be limited to new Rolex or are they likely to develop a taste for vintage?

A Chinese passion for vintage might well pump up the price of vintage beyond what we are able to afford.

[93 Turbo]

Interesting comment Steve. Mr Aurel Bacs, Watch Department Chief of Christies, comments that collectors in China will become a dominating force within the vintage market in five years. (Oct 2011 WatchTime)

While Mr Bacs deals with the higher end of the vintage watch spectrum. This at some stage will effect the earlier Rolex pieces we currently take for granted in relation to pricing and availability.

A very good point, and something we should all consider in the not too distant future, wether it be good, bad or indifferent to vintage watch collecting.

Cheers Jules

[edouble141]

The last 3 vintage pieces I sold all went to Hong Kong and all 3 of the buyers are asking me to find them vintage DRSD and Daytonas.

I would say that the money for Vintage in China has long started affecting the prices. Thats why we have had a bounce lately in the Vintage market when for the last few years the prices have been dropping.

[tattooedfagin]

might be worth getting one in now before the prices go too far

[Numismatist]

Thanks for bringing this up, I've been wondering that. I don't think they'll have the emotional connection from a historic standpoint to be interested. Why would they care about a Paul Newman Daytona for example? I think right now they're all about conspicuous consumption and brand buying. They'll need their own connection to vintage...for them, vintage will be the old Expy, or the SD 4000.

What I'm really afraid of, is that they will find their own 'Rolex' brand and it will become their Rolex, what would that do to real Rolex sales?

[Keeperoftime]

To my knowledge the Chinese market are causing the spikes! From a non-sentimental standpoint the fact is.

"Anyone" with the means can buy a new Rolex. Many bored wealthy people emjoy finding something more difficult to obtain (enter vintage models).

[fusionstorm]

Not sure why an "emotional connection" is needed for anyone to like something. The Chinese love things like Mercedes Benz and Louis Vuitton. What's the emotional connection there??

All it takes is for one "tastemaker" in China like a popular singer or actor to profess a love for vintage Rolexes, and the masses will start a stampede for vintage. The savvy connoisseurs there have already started to shift their collections in that direction, much for the same reasons that a lot of us vintage collectors have:

1) Differentiating ourselves from the masses wearing modern pieces.
2) Appreciating the aesthetic appeal of matte and gilt dials along with tritium or radium markers.
3) Seeing far less depreciation (and oftentimes, appreciation in value) owning vintage rather than modern.

Chinese people are fundamentally no different than Western folk. They appreciate the finer things in life. Some like those things flashy. Others like them more low key. In time, the numbers of vintage Rolex owners there will only increase.

[Numismatist]

Originally Posted by fusionstorm

Not sure why an "emotional connection" is needed for anyone to like something. The Chinese love things like Mercedes Benz and Louis Vuitton. What's the emotional connection there??

All it takes is for one "tastemaker" in China like a popular singer or actor to profess a love for vintage Rolexes, and the masses will start a stampede for vintage. The savvy connoisseurs there have already started to shift their collections in that direction, much for the same reasons that a lot of us vintage collectors have:

1) Differentiating ourselves from the masses wearing modern pieces.
2) Appreciating the aesthetic appeal of matte and gilt dials along with tritium or radium markers.
3) Seeing far less depreciation (and oftentimes, appreciation in value) owning vintage rather than modern.

Chinese people are fundamentally no different than Western folk. They appreciate the finer things in life. Some like those things flashy. Others like them more low key. In time, the numbers of vintage Rolex owners there will only increase.

Absolutely, but we have an emotional connection to Paul Newman (as the example), because of his many movies and oh so yummy salad dressing ; than means very little to the Chinese I'd suspect. So the vintage Newman Daytonas don't have that appeal; unless one thinks all they will care about is that they are rarer and pricier. I'd like to think there needs to be something else than pure finances involved for them to start down the vintage road.

[Jagatai]

Hollywood's reach is world wide. Paul Newman, Steve McQueen, James Bond are familiar everywhere. That "emotional connection" is a fallacy. I know people will always seek something old and vintage. The Chinese have always had respect for older stuff. And MONEY and investment.

[Fearsome Puppy]

I know from some local contacts that watch auctions in China have just started to take off in a big way in just the last couple of years. My guess is that vintage will be the next status symbol for the super wealthy in China to spend their money on.

Emotional attachment and heritage do not always play a factor in how they spend, it is still often the case that the status derived from owning the 'unobtainable' and also converting cash to assets are the major factors. In many cases cash gets treated like monopoly money...

[adt]

i dont know about the chinese being familiar with all the western icons. i heard when hong kong disneyland first opened, they had to run videos of who mickey mouse was and why he was special for all the mainland tourists!

[hennabav]

Originally Posted by Fearsome Puppy

status derived from owning the 'unobtainable' and also converting cash to assets are the major factors.

I agree with Kevin & Philip. It's really owning something that nobody else can own. That's the beauty of vintage...even to me! Whether I have an "emotional connection" is not my thing. For most collectors, aside from admiring the beauty, its having that status of owning the best of best! It's no different between vintage watches compared to art. It's owning the top and most desired piece and having the rights to say you own it. When you are that wealthy, you would not want to be the average Joe with average tastes. You want to step up your level. And the Chinese definitely has a lot of cash to drop.

[RolexSA]

Because of the sheer hugeness of the Chinese market ( billions of people ) we would have to assume that they will eventually venture onto the vintage market . Then again the same thing was expected from the emerging Russian market and never materialised . They as the Chinese seem to prefer the "latest" stuff .
Hong Kong has been China's vintage market for a while now .

[hennabav]

The Hong Kong market is definitely one of the largest vintage markets out there already. I really think it's just a current state. As luxury tastes become more refined, they may become a big vintage market.

[drainaps]

Chinese do not like expensive second-hand stuff. I know vintage is vintage, not some sort of garage-sale stuff, but buying new is a requisite for buying expensive. It is deeply entrenched in their culture. I agree many connoisseur exist and trade heavily in HK - SIN, but mainland Chinese going strong into vintage..... That is going to take time.

One of the strong points of buying brand new is that people know it's expensive ( and many will outright tell you how much it cost should should you praise it, this is socially acceptable here and not only acceptable, good taste too). There is a deep cultural barrier to that happening.

[fusionstorm]

Originally Posted by Numismatist

Absolutely, but we have an emotional connection to Paul Newman (as the example), because of his many movies and oh so yummy salad dressing ; than means very little to the Chinese I'd suspect. So the vintage Newman Daytonas don't have that appeal; unless one thinks all they will care about is that they are rarer and pricier. I'd like to think there needs to be something else than pure finances involved for them to start down the vintage road.

Let's not assume that even the majority of Western vintage collectors feel some sort of connection with Newman, McQueen, Bond, Killy, etc. I know more than a few guys who collect vintage who were surprised to learn that Bond was originally not an Omega guy (or that he originally drove British makes such as the Aston Martin, Bamford & Martin and Bentley instead of a BMW or Audi, or that his drink of choice while in seduction mode with the ladies was Bollinger champagne instead of a martini).

[hennabav]

Originally Posted by drainaps

Chinese do not like expensive second-hand stuff. I know vintage is vintage, not some sort of garage-sale stuff, but buying new is a requisite for buying expensive. It is deeply entrenched in their culture. I agree many connoisseur exist and trade heavily in HK - SIN, but mainland Chinese going strong into vintage..... That is going to take time.

One of the strong points of buying brand new is that people know it's expensive ( and many will outright tell you how much it cost should should you praise it, this is socially acceptable here and not only acceptable, good taste too). There is a deep cultural barrier to that happening.

Very interesting and thanks for your direct input. I have many friends who are from China as well and they all say that. But the vintage market is really a niche market. I am not saying the general population in China will appreciate vintage, but there is definitely a small niche market who appreciate this art will. In the US, it is no different. If I showed the average watch enthusiast a new ceramic Sub vs. a 6538 4-liner Big Crown which is better or more expensive, I'm sure most would decide on the new model. Vintage is an acquired taste and only time will tell. People in HK & Southeast Asia were once about extravagance but now for a small market, the tastes have refined and some strictly collect vintage. Like I said, vintage is not for everyone and will never be for everyone. But a niche market will build over time IMHO.

[Welshwatchman]

It might take a while but a niche market in China still equates to a large market in relation to the pieces available.

Prices for the better examples, UP UP UP.

[adt]

Originally Posted by hennabav

Very interesting and thanks for your direct input. I have many friends who are from China as well and they all say that. But the vintage market is really a niche market. I am not saying the general population in China will appreciate vintage, but there is definitely a small niche market who appreciate this art will. In the US, it is no different. If I showed the average watch enthusiast a new ceramic Sub vs. a 6538 4-liner Big Crown which is better or more expensive, I'm sure most would decide on the new model. Vintage is an acquired taste and only time will tell. People in HK & Southeast Asia were once about extravagance but now for a small market, the tastes have refined and some strictly collect vintage. Like I said, vintage is not for everyone and will never be for everyone. But a niche market will build over time IMHO.

agree with you here. my chinese friends as well as caucasian friends all wonder why my old watch is desirable or expensive. they have no clue at all and i dont blame them. niche market no matter the race or culture.

[hennabav]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

It might take a while but a niche market in China still equates to a large market in relation to the pieces available.

Prices for the better examples, UP UP UP.

Paul, 100% agree! That's why all the companies all want to sell their products there! Even if just 1/5 of the Chinese population bought one of your products, it would equate to 100% of the US population buying one. It's hard to beat.

[hennabav]

Originally Posted by adt

agree with you here. my chinese friends as well as caucasian friends all wonder why my old watch is desirable or expensive. they have no clue at all and i dont blame them. niche market no matter the race or culture.

Well said......they have no idea! My friends think I'm crazy...and maybe I am !!

[drainaps]

As I said, " It might take time". Other than old Chinese art & pottery, and eventually some ( very) traditional furniture, which culturally speaks a lot to them, and their past grandeur, I do not see many vintage niches here.

No vintage cars ( tons of Brand-new V12 S600 Benzes and "Bao Ma", Maseratis and Ferraris like there was no tomorrow, and Minis for their mistresses) or vintage anything that smells of the west. It is meaningless to them. Money here helps you part w your past and put it behind you, and that means anything not modern is not worth looking into. I know it sounds a bit wild...... It IS wild. Welcome to the most capitalist country in the world.

Mind you Hong Kong and Singapore are big vintage markets, and many there have developed an exquisite taste for vintage. It will take time here. But don't assume that anything that has become fashionable in the west will be a firecracker here.... Lots of corporate money has been wasted assuming that ( take Best Buy for instance). Here things happen in, sometimes, a somewhat different dimension, that has NOTHING to do w the western way.

Originally Posted by hennabav

Very interesting and thanks for your direct input. I have many friends who are from China as well and they all say that. But the vintage market is really a niche market. I am not saying the general population in China will appreciate vintage, but there is definitely a small niche market who appreciate this art will. In the US, it is no different. If I showed the average watch enthusiast a new ceramic Sub vs. a 6538 4-liner Big Crown which is better or more expensive, I'm sure most would decide on the new model. Vintage is an acquired taste and only time will tell. People in HK & Southeast Asia were once about extravagance but now for a small market, the tastes have refined and some strictly collect vintage. Like I said, vintage is not for everyone and will never be for everyone. But a niche market will build over time IMHO.

[TimingsEverything]

Originally Posted by fusionstorm

...All it takes is for one "tastemaker" in China like a popular singer or actor to profess a love for vintage Rolexes, and the masses will start a stampede for vintage. ...

It's no small coincidence that pro tennis's Li Na has been signed as a Rolex ambassador.

[hennabav]

Originally Posted by drainaps

As I said, " It might take time". Other than old Chinese art & pottery, and eventually some ( very) traditional furniture, which culturally speaks a lot to them, and their past grandeur, I do not see many vintage niches here.

No vintage cars ( tons of Brand-new V12 S600 Benzes and "Bao Ma", Maseratis and Ferraris like there was no tomorrow, and Minis for their mistresses) or vintage anything that smells of the west. It is meaningless to them. Money here helps you part w your past and put it behind you, and that means anything not modern is not worth looking into. I know it sounds a bit wild...... It IS wild. Welcome to the most capitalist country in the world.

Mind you Hong Kong and Singapore are big vintage markets, and many there have developed an exquisite taste for vintage. It will take time here. But don't assume that anything that has become fashionable in the west will be a firecracker here.... Lots of corporate money has been wasted assuming that ( take Best Buy for instance). Here things happen in, sometimes, a somewhat different dimension, that has NOTHING to do w the western way.

Well said and I do agree it will take time. I have many Chinese friends who are from China and we discuss this topic each and every time. It's a very interesting culture for sure and for each culture you have to live it to fully understand and be successful. A lot of western companies don't like to change their way of operation and believe what and how they do it is exactly the way other cultures will accept it....that's when everything turns downhill...assuming others live like we do.

[drainaps]

One more (very) friendly comment. Market makers in China are NOT necessarily your friends or mine ( I don't speak Chinese and that restricts my entourage substantially) or any Chinese "exposed" to the West, to its values /culture/sensitivity / Colleges /Institutions.

It's a VERY local élite who buys Chateau Laffite Rotschild because it's expensive and gives face, and incidentally yes, comes from France, buys Hermès Kelly handbags because they show you have made it and are instantly recognizable icons and incidentally are made in France too, and so on so forth. I am sure few of them can place Bordeaux on a map, even less say what a " Grand Vin de Bordeaux" might be, which would be rather unusual in the West.

I have started to glimpse many custom-made or limited edition "haute horlogerie" pieces here, and that exclusivity, linked to it being brand new, has in my opinion a far superior appeal to a Chinese mind than an "old watch" with a "middle of the road" watch luxury Brand ( Rolex, believe it or not). Anyway, time will tell and I hope you are right, as I have my share of vintage Rolexes.

Originally Posted by hennabav

Well said and I do agree it will take time. I have many Chinese friends who are from China and we discuss this topic each and every time. It's a very interesting culture for sure and for each culture you have to live it to fully understand and be successful. A lot of western companies don't like to change their way of operation and believe what and how they do it is exactly the way other cultures will accept it....that's when everything turns downhill...assuming others live like we do.

[hennabav]

Very true. That's why I always believe I'm very lucky to be Chinese in this day and age and grew up in the culture and speak the language. Funny but most of my friend's parents are either big political figures in several major cities in China or are businessmen there. Most of them send their kids here for school and the old right now are the ones who keep the fort down over there. I would not be surprised if there will be a revolution sooner or later if the government keeps it at that pace. Greed is the name word over there.

[fusionstorm]

Originally Posted by drainaps

It's a VERY local élite who buys Chateau Laffite Rotschild because it's expensive and gives face, and incidentally yes, comes from France, buys Hermès Kelly handbags because they show you have made it and are instantly recognizable icons and incidentally are made in France too, and so on so forth. I am sure few of them can place Bordeaux on a map, even less say what a " Grand Vin de Bordeaux" might be, which would be rather unusual in the West.

LOL, don't get me going on the subject of how much of an impact mainland China's increasing interest in wine has had on top-end labels and vintages. Let's just say that I wished I'd stashed way more Bordeaux in my cellar over the past 10 years than I did.......

[Lamone]

Originally Posted by edouble141

The last 3 vintage pieces I sold all went to Hong Kong and all 3 of the buyers are asking me to find them vintage DRSD and Daytonas.

I would say that the money for Vintage in China has long started affecting the prices. Thats why we have had a bounce lately in the Vintage market when for the last few years the prices have been dropping.

Eric is spot on!

[HL65]

Originally Posted by hennabav

I agree with Kevin & Philip. It's really owning something that nobody else can own. That's the beauty of vintage...even to me! Whether I have an "emotional connection" is not my thing. For most collectors, aside from admiring the beauty, its having that status of owning the best of best! It's no different between vintage watches compared to art. It's owning the top and most desired piece and having the rights to say you own it. When you are that wealthy, you would not want to be the average Joe with average tastes. You want to step up your level. And the Chinese definitely has a lot of cash to drop.

Agree Jon!

[skyedog]

Originally Posted by hennabav

I agree with Kevin & Philip. It's really owning something that nobody else can own. That's the beauty of vintage...even to me! Whether I have an "emotional connection" is not my thing. For most collectors, aside from admiring the beauty, its having that status of owning the best of best! It's no different between vintage watches compared to art. It's owning the top and most desired piece and having the rights to say you own it. When you are that wealthy, you would not want to be the average Joe with average tastes. You want to step up your level. And the Chinese definitely has a lot of cash to drop.

Well said Jon!
It's really owning something that nobody else can own

Yep and the Chinese got the cash!