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Old 4 March 2010, 02:49 AM   #31
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Nice thread! Great information!
I see what is being questioned here.
I can see the marketing hype, but basically, it's the same as any other movement, when it comes to the test, it passed, like so many other brands.
Do they test durability and longevity, maybe this is where the Superlative comes from, because From all I have ever read or heard, Rolex makes superior lasting movements to ETA, so maybe it is Superlative.
I often see comments like the Tudor range uses inferior ETA movement.Not like Rolex than are in-house built but ETA are all in-house built too.And there has been a little bit of ETA in every Rolex for the past 4 decades with the escapement hair-spring.But in most movements there are 5 grades of say the ETA 2824,for the Tudor range Rolex uses the top grade chronometer movement the 2824-2T for most of the non chrono models.And for there chronographs again the chronometer grade Valjoux 7750/1. And its a well known fact both of these movements are very accurate and long lasting.Fact these two movements when COSC tested in proportion to say what Rolex gets tested yearly,have one of the highest first time pass rates at the Swiss COSC.And like Rolex all ETA Valjoux are 100% in-house built too,and one of the main reasons Rolex don't get the Tudor range COSC tested is simply down to cost. But even if Rolex tested the Tudor ETA Valjoux range at the COSC they would pass just the same a Rolex.And today many vintage Tudors are more expensive than there Rolex brothers the Tudor range are a excellent in every department and in todays market very well priced.


And lets not forget that until 1989 all the Rolex Daytona's chronographs were powered by a ETA Valjoux movements. But even then the S.Steel ones were not COSC tested but the solid gold ones were COSC tested but both had exactly the same movement.



Sometime I hear comments like "such an expensive watch and only an ETA movement inside ". Words like these give the impression that an ETA movement is of lower quality.It should be the other way around, people should say "Well, it has a excellent ETA movement inside this watch, but the price of this watch is astonishingly high".And lets not forget they still make and sell around five million movements a year.Lets not forget that ETA is the largest manufacture in Switzerland, because they make everything, in-house only too.

I have a special regard for the Unitas 6497/8 this movement has not basically changed now for over 50 years,and is capable of COSC standards,and very forgiving in its servicing or lack of.A truly great workhouse movement that has powered many many high end watches.

This is short list of outstanding ETA movements that should all easily achieve a daily consistency of five + - seconds daily or better on the wrist.ETA 2892-A2, ETA 2824/T2, ETA 7750,Unitas6497/8
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Old 4 March 2010, 02:53 AM   #32
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Old 4 March 2010, 02:58 AM   #33
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As mentioned, the "superlative" bit is just marketing. But it should be noted that back in the early days (1930s-1960s) the COSC and Kew A (much more stringent than COSC) both declared Rolex performance as "especially good".

Especially good chronometer officially certified. Sounds kind of passive-aggressive.
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Old 4 March 2010, 03:01 AM   #34
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Guys, guys..........

ROLEX is a SUPERLATIVE product...........what do you expect? Just be proud of it!!
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Old 4 March 2010, 04:12 AM   #35
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You guys are putting way too much into this...

.........COSC didn't exist until 1973...

Rolex began putting "Superlative" on their watches back in the 50's...

It's a marketing statement that they make high end watches..not that they meet some standard better than somebody else.....
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Old 4 March 2010, 04:24 AM   #36
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su·per·la·tive (s-pûrl-tv)
adj.
1. Of the highest order, quality, or degree; surpassing or superior to all others.
2. Excessive or exaggerated.
3. Grammar Of, relating to, or being the extreme degree of comparison of an adjective or adverb, as in best or brightest.

My take is that they're implying 'their' chronometer is better than other brands chronometer, which is disengenous at best.
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Old 4 March 2010, 04:26 AM   #37
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su·per·la·tive (s-pûrl-tv)
adj.
1. Of the highest order, quality, or degree; surpassing or superior to all others.
2. Excessive or exaggerated.
3. Grammar Of, relating to, or being the extreme degree of comparison of an adjective or adverb, as in best or brightest.

My take is that they're implying 'their' chronometer is better than other brands chronometer, which is disengenous at best.
I shall immediately sell all my Rolexes, this is unbelievable...
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Old 4 March 2010, 04:31 AM   #38
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You guys are putting way too much into this...

.........COSC didn't exist until 1973...

Rolex began putting "Superlative" on their watches back in the 50's...

It's a marketing statement that they make high end watches..not that they meet some standard better than somebody else.....
Must agree with Larry again on that fact, and before the Swiss COSC was formed as it is now it. There were Observatory testing and competitions to a much higher standard than the now antiquated Swiss COSC test.
And during the entire 23 years of testing, 5093 wristwatches were submitted for certification, and only 3253 were passed, about 64%.And in those days just a few manufacturers participated, and only Omega and Patek did so every year. The others were: Rolex, Zenith, Longines, Movado, Vacheron & Constantin, Ulysse Nardin, Cyma and Favre-Leuba, along with numerous independent professional watchmakers.That was until Seiko come on the scene and started to wipe the floor with the Swiss mechanical watch industry.Only 2 brands in the + 23 years of the competitions submitted movements of serial production for normal retail sale(Seiko and GP).All others were specially made one off movements just for the competition.And it was ended by the swiss in the early 1970s after two straight wins by the Japanese straight off the production line Seiko Grand watches.

Seiko first entered the competition,with watches from all over the world,including most of the Swiss high end brands.For a much higher standard than the COSC,the Astronomical Observatory Authorisation Chronometer Standard.Out of many watches summited only two passed this test a Seiko Grand just a production model, and Giraud Peregaux a specially build for the test model.And in the late 1960s there were only two companies, who could sell watches, passed astronomical observatory authorisation Chronometer in those days. ---Seiko and Giraud Peregaux.As the Japanese had dominated in the very late 1960s and the two preceding events, in 1972 some Swiss watch manufacturers demanded the end of the observatory competitions,and it was ended in 1973,thats when the watered down COSC test was founded.
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Old 4 March 2010, 04:44 AM   #39
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I own a quite rare Movado wrist chronometer-auto, 28 jewels, blued screws, overcoil, swan's neck regulator, full positional adjustment, heat, cold, and isocranism. What makes it rare is that it is smallish, 9.5 ligne movement. A Movado book even names the gent who adjusted the watch for the certification.
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Old 4 March 2010, 07:17 AM   #40
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Old 4 March 2010, 07:21 AM   #41
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I often see comments like the Tudor range uses inferior ETA movement.Not like Rolex than are in-house built but ETA are all in-house built too.And there has been a little bit of ETA in every Rolex for the past 4 decades with the escapement hair-spring.But in most movements there are 5 grades of say the ETA 2824,for the Tudor range Rolex uses the top grade chronometer movement the 2824-2T for most of the non chrono models.And for there chronographs again the chronometer grade Valjoux 7750/1. And its a well known fact both of these movements are very accurate and long lasting.Fact these two movements when COSC tested in proportion to say what Rolex gets tested yearly,have one of the highest first time pass rates at the Swiss COSC.And like Rolex all ETA Valjoux are 100% in-house built too,and one of the main reasons Rolex don't get the Tudor range COSC tested is simply down to cost. But even if Rolex tested the Tudor ETA Valjoux range at the COSC they would pass just the same a Rolex.And today many vintage Tudors are more expensive than there Rolex brothers the Tudor range are a excellent in every department and in todays market very well priced.


And lets not forget that until 1989 all the Rolex Daytona's chronographs were powered by a ETA Valjoux movements. But even then the S.Steel ones were not COSC tested but the solid gold ones were COSC tested but both had exactly the same movement.



Sometime I hear comments like "such an expensive watch and only an ETA movement inside ". Words like these give the impression that an ETA movement is of lower quality.It should be the other way around, people should say "Well, it has a excellent ETA movement inside this watch, but the price of this watch is astonishingly high".And lets not forget they still make and sell around five million movements a year.Lets not forget that ETA is the largest manufacture in Switzerland, because they make everything, in-house only too.

I have a special regard for the Unitas 6497/8 this movement has not basically changed now for over 50 years,and is capable of COSC standards,and very forgiving in its servicing or lack of.A truly great workhouse movement that has powered many many high end watches.

This is short list of outstanding ETA movements that should all easily achieve a daily consistency of five + - seconds daily or better on the wrist.ETA 2892-A2, ETA 2824/T2, ETA 7750,Unitas6497/8

Great! I had no idea. Everytime I mention Geneve watches I get it shoved down my throat, that their movements are probably ETA, and thus they suck.
so what is the real story. I want a Geneve Chronograph. $5K as opposed to 20K+ for Daytona. I figure I buy the Geneve in White Gold, save a few bucks, and get a SS Daytona, Everyone wins! Plus I have 2 watches for what 1 daytona would have cost me.

So I am to believe ETA makes quality movements as well, I guess the Geneve will be in my collection!

Thanks for the education, guess II should do some more research before opening my mouth!
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Old 4 March 2010, 07:35 AM   #42
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su·per·la·tive (s-pûrl-tv)
adj.
1. Of the highest order, quality, or degree; surpassing or superior to all others.
2. Excessive or exaggerated.
3. Grammar Of, relating to, or being the extreme degree of comparison of an adjective or adverb, as in best or brightest.

My take is that they're implying 'their' chronometer is better than other brands chronometer, which is disengenous at best.
COSC is in the business of certifying movements. Rolex is in the business of selling complete watches.

Whether Rolex's Chronometer *movements* are better than others is open for debate. That Rolex's completed watches, containing a COSC certified chronometer movement, are "Superlative" is easily defensible. Especially given the innovations at the time they began using the "Superlative" adjective.

Not every chronometer was auto-winding/perpetual, not every chronometer had date/day complications, not every chronometer was dust-proof and water-proof encased, etc.

You may call it disingenuous, but I would disagree.
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Old 4 March 2010, 07:47 AM   #43
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COSC is in the business of certifying movements. Rolex is in the business of selling complete watches.

Whether Rolex's Chronometer *movements* are better than others is open for debate. That Rolex's completed watches, containing a COSC certified chronometer movement, are "Superlative" is easily defensible. Especially given the innovations at the time they began using the "Superlative" adjective.

Not every chronometer was auto-winding/perpetual, not every chronometer had date/day complications, not every chronometer was dust-proof and water-proof encased, etc.

You may call it disingenuous, but I would disagree.
I used to conduct timepiece selling skills seminars for jewelry store sales professionals. They would get the question 'Why aren't your chronometers as good as Rolexes?' from customers. So whether or not it's intentionally disengenous it serves the purpose to the uneducated. I heard this in training in Europe, the US, and South America.
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Old 4 March 2010, 07:55 AM   #44
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And what's the point? Do you think a random Miyota movement in an Invicta that is able to pass COSC is the equal of a typical Rolex 3135? Would it be wrong to call the Rolex "Superlative" in comparison to the Miyota?

A college degree is a pass/fail proposition. Does that mean that every person bearing a Bachelor degree is equally intelligent, educated, and equipped in their field?
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Old 4 March 2010, 10:00 PM   #45
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COSC is in the business of certifying movements. Rolex is in the business of selling complete watches.

Whether Rolex's Chronometer *movements* are better than others is open for debate. That Rolex's completed watches, containing a COSC certified chronometer movement, are "Superlative" is easily defensible. Especially given the innovations at the time they began using the "Superlative" adjective.

Not every chronometer was auto-winding/perpetual, not every chronometer had date/day complications, not every chronometer was dust-proof and water-proof encased, etc.

You may call it disingenuous, but I would disagree.
When any Rolex watch is tested at the Swiss COSC its only the bare movement thats tested.No dial hands date wheel etc and no winding rotor,special dials and hands are fitted at COSC.Now because of the vast amount of movements tested by Rolex they have a special machine.The bare movements are loaded into magazines and all wound very fast by machine thats why auto rotor is removed then tested by time lapse photography linked to a central computer for the complete test most of the test is fully automated.
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Old 4 March 2010, 10:30 PM   #46
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Good marketing though!
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Old 5 March 2010, 12:20 AM   #47
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And what's the point? Do you think a random Miyota movement in an Invicta that is able to pass COSC is the equal of a typical Rolex 3135? Would it be wrong to call the Rolex "Superlative" in comparison to the Miyota?

A college degree is a pass/fail proposition. Does that mean that every person bearing a Bachelor degree is equally intelligent, educated, and equipped in their field?
Really? You have GPA and various honors to distinguish one grad from the other. Having Summa cum Laude vs a 2.0 GPA shows a true distinction, unlike one university calling their graduates 'superlative' BA's or BS's.
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Old 5 March 2010, 12:21 AM   #48
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Old 5 March 2010, 12:29 AM   #49
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Right guys lets take a chill pill Superlative is only a word just like many others.
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Old 5 March 2010, 12:36 AM   #50
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"Superlative" = simple marketing

A chronometer is a chronometer but you will have to take Rolex's word for it. There is no way to get your hands on the COSC documentation to establish it as fact.

At least I have the certificate for one of my Omega's and have ordered the others.



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Old 5 March 2010, 04:47 AM   #51
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What happens to the movements that don't pass?
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Old 7 March 2010, 05:01 AM   #52
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What happens to the movements that don't pass?
I've often wondered the same thing?
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Old 7 March 2010, 06:56 PM   #53
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What happens to the movements that don't pass?
Quite simple they are sent back to Rolex perhaps re-oiled re-timed then sent back for testing till they do pass.It is most important to remember that a "COSC certified chronometer" is not the Holy Grail of watchmaking. With the high quality of modern day robotised manufacturing all brands, this test is not that important in reality. As today most decent modern watches and movements from all countries even some from China like the Seagull movements, when adequately regulated and adjusted, should be able to match the performance specified by the Swiss COSC.

A chronometer certificate is not a guarantee of future accuracy only a certification of the bare movement tested at the COSC at that time of testing. Watch movements that have been certified can get out of adjustment and perform quite poorly and have to be regulated.Most movements that were not certified could still exceed the COSC standards with just simple regulation.Many of the manufacturers may have simply chosen to bypass the expense of the certification process at COSC its quite expensive to test every single movement. But today the COSC is little more than a pure marketing tool and means little in actual performance only the fact its been tested.

The term "Superlative Chronometer" is a now trademark of Rolex. The addition of the word "Superlative" in front of the official designation of Chronometer, is merely a Rolex marketing ploy angle, to give it a more distinguished sound to the chronometer status of their products, in other words complete bullsh#t. As all watches that have earned the privilege of bearing the official Swiss designation of Chronometer have to meet the exact same C.O.S.C. standards. Any words added before or after the official designation of Chronometer are merely marketing and bullsh#t, which Rolex sometimes can be very good at.There are not any different grades or levels of chronometer certification,but Rolex would like you to think there is.Remember it takes 12 months to make a oyster one of Rolex finest bits of pure bull.Likewise the wording Certified Chronometer also means nothing different than just plain Chronometer. It is a redundant phrase word,since getting Chronometer status is the certification, the certified is just more complete bullsh#t to make it sound better.

The European DIN 8319 and Japanese equivalent are to a far higher standard than the now very antiquated Swiss COSC . The Din standards as stated in the regulation consists of a 15-day monitoring period for each mechanical watch in the following positions very similar to the Swiss test crown left, crown up, crown down, dial up and dial down.Tested at temperatures from 8c-38c,the average daily variation cannot be more than five-seconds.The Swiss COSC could go up to 10 seconds in the first 10 days of testing.And DIN test the movement is tested inside its real case rather than inside a temporary case for later installation like Swiss COSC.The COSC tested movements must endure the environmental and positional tests without losing more than 4 seconds, or gaining 6 seconds, per day.And normal DIN standards are -2 +4 seconds over 24 hours.Fact today 90% of all movements submitted to the Swiss COSC and Rolex is the biggest contributor pass test first time.And myself have done experiments with the help of my watchmaker friend on some very so called humble movements.The cheapest one a Chinese made Seagull ST19 manual wind chronograph that cost just $60 and with careful regulation ran well inside COSC spec.

This is the copy of the German Din certificate for my Dreadnought watch,A Timefactors watch that cost then just £400 as you can see +0.4 seconds a day,not bad for a so called humble ETA 2824-T2 movement,less than half a second a day and still the same today after several years of hard wearing.

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Old 7 March 2010, 07:11 PM   #54
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Why does Rolex say their chronometers are 'superlative' to others, when the results are pass/fail?
For the same reason they say 904L is 'the' steel
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Old 7 March 2010, 09:44 PM   #55
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Exactly.

There was a time when they didn't.

oooh goodness I just fainted.

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Old 8 March 2010, 01:43 AM   #56
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Very nice old timer there.
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Old 8 March 2010, 01:08 PM   #57
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A college degree is a pass/fail proposition.
In some abstract sense perhaps, what about GPAs and such things as honors?

A Bachelor's Degree alone won't carry much weight trying to get into grad school and many employers want a copy of your transcripts.

As for the "Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified," I think it's a little much, but it balances out the dial and has a nice ring to it.

Otherwise, who cares? It's a Rolex.
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Old 8 March 2010, 01:08 PM   #58
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Exactly.

There was a time when they didn't.

Good post!
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Old 8 March 2010, 01:14 PM   #59
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"Superlative" = simple marketing

A chronometer is a chronometer but you will have to take Rolex's word for it. There is no way to get your hands on the COSC documentation to establish it as fact.

At least I have the certificate for one of my Omega's and have ordered the others.
My Explorer is running a consistent 14 seconds fast per week. To me, that precludes the necessity of a certificate.
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Old 8 March 2010, 01:43 PM   #60
Singslinger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPTL View Post
"Run-o-the-mill Chronometer" just doesn't get my juices going. Would be a waste of ink.
Or "Ordinary'' or "Normal'' or "Non-standard''.....I guess "Superlative'' has a nicer ring to it, so the marketing boffins at Rolex went with that instead.
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