A. Lange & Söhne and The Holy Trinity of Watches.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

It would be hard for me to put ALS in the category of “trinity” given its dark past. And I’m not buying the argument that the company is different than the Nazi company 50 years before it. It has the same name and same ownership lineage and that matters for a lot of reasons. But even looking past that, and it’s a big looking past, the design language is off putting and tired.

Different company. Different ownership. I don't buy the "Sins of the Father" style arguments that are levied to taint offspring. You may be put off by ALS, but I'll never understand the thinking that would tie a contemporary company, not a single soul in which has ever done anything within WWII Germany, to some original sin never to be gotten away from merely because the company operated during that era.

Perhaps you've never bought from IBM or bought a BMW or a Mercedes or from a whole host of other companies whose operators are now long-since dead yet had some connection to Germany of that era.

[bondtoys]

The holy trinity was a thing from the past, back when those 3 brands made the best watches out there, the highest of high horology.
That is not true today anymore so it doesn‘t matter to where ALS belongs to imo.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

It would be hard for me to put ALS in the category of “trinity” given its dark past. And I’m not buying the argument that the company is different than the Nazi company 50 years before it. It has the same name and same ownership lineage and that matters for a lot of reasons. But even looking past that, and it’s a big looking past, the design language is off putting and tired.

They are well built and well finished. But not more so than GF, Debethune, Laurent Ferrier, Dufour, Smith, D Candaux, Halter (the list goes on) and in many cases ALS comes up short when compared on this level.

So I guess I’m at a loss. If you like the watch, that’s great. There are a couple of gems in the brand. Enjoy it. But with a terrible history, unremarkable design language, no iconoclastic model, finishing that is on par with many others, what exactly do they do that puts them in the category of trinity?


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Not so sure how to relate Lange with the Nazi party. Seems a bit far fetched here. Once a triad gets inked it is hard to break in. I think it’s that simple based on how the time was of crafting this now silly reference point of only 3 good companies.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

Different company. Different ownership. I don't buy the "Sins of the Father" style arguments that are levied to taint offspring. You may be put off by ALS, but I'll never understand the thinking that would tie a contemporary company, not a single soul in which has ever done anything within WWII Germany, to some original sin never to be gotten away from merely because the company operated during that era.

Perhaps you've never bought from IBM or bought a BMW or a Mercedes or from a whole host of other companies whose operators are now long-since dead yet had some connection to Germany of that era.

I agree with you in part: sins of the father are not necessarily sins the children. I could even get on board with your argument that if the money the father made goes to put his kids in a better place than the kids of the person the father exploited (Lange used slave labor), we shouldn't punish the kid and the exploited kid is just out of luck. At the same time, I don't see a lot of kids named Adolf running around... because names do matter.

But the question isn't about the morality of all that. So whether you should buy a BMW given its Nazi ties is irrelevant to what the poster is asking. The questions was whether ALS goes on to the Trinity. History plays a big role in that. ALS has a pretty big blemish.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

Not so sure how to relate Lange with the Nazi party. Seems a bit far fetched here. Once a triad gets inked it is hard to break in. I think it’s that simple based on how the time was of crafting this now silly reference point of only 3 good companies.

Plenty of references out there. A simple google search or wikipedia search should quell your suspicions of a conspiracy theory.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Copasetic

I think this video answers some of your questions:

https://www.youtube.com/live/8ZqMDj6...Y4mvy8baO0_Zc1

Tim Mosso is a very knowledgable watch dealer who sells ALS watches. But I only had one question, and he didn't answer it. Maybe you could?

[Copasetic]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Tim Mosso is a very knowledgable watch dealer who sells ALS watches. But I only had one question, and he didn't answer it. Maybe you could?

No, I can’t and won’t attempt to. But I’m sure someone on here more knowledgeable than me could give it a try.

[dmb359]

"have the right"? ALS is great watches, as our PP, AP, and VC. Holy trinity is just an old nickname for those 3 brands, it doesnt mean other brands are inferior. ALS is on par with all of those 3, as are many high end independents and other brands.

[trackingtime]

the holy trinity talk has always been swiss manufactures only (apart from indies)
that's the whole point

[ChetBaker]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Tim Mosso is a very knowledgable watch dealer who sells ALS watches. But I only had one question, and he didn't answer it. Maybe you could?

I’ll answer it: certainly a lot more and a lot better than AP.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

I’ll answer it: certainly a lot more and a lot better than AP.

It should be in the trinity because it’s “better.” Cmon chetbaker. You can do “better” than that.


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[ChetBaker]

I’m sure you can too, rather than discounting them on the basis of what happened 80 years ago without involvement from the company as it is today.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

I’m sure you can too, rather than discounting them on the basis of what happened 80 years ago without involvement from the company as it is today.

History is important when considering “trinity” no? That’s kind of the point. If the question is “should ALS be considered trinity” then yes I discount them based on their name and their history

Otherwise a whole slew of newer independent brands whose watchmaking prowess far exceeds ALS would be first in line.

On the other hand, if the question were “are ALS good watches / well made / haute horology…” then I’d take your point that you can’t discount their quality based on history.

But this is a different question.


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[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Plenty of references out there. A simple google search or wikipedia search should quell your suspicions of a conspiracy theory.

To be more specific, I don’t see the relationship with ALS and consequences of the regime. I don’t think all German brands fail by association of being present at that time. VW and all the others noted included. Never would have associated Lange as such.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

To be more specific, I don’t see the relationship with ALS and consequences of the regime. I don’t think all German brands fail by association of being present at that time. VW and all the others noted included. Never would have associated Lange as such.

Various sources mention that ALS used slave labor to make war instruments. Slaves dude. That’s not guilt by association. And not trinity worthy.

Also, to this idea that they are two separate companies (the old ALS and the resurrected ALS): the name of the company was intentional. The advertisement at the time (1994) was ALS “is back” … “the legend has come home.” They capitalized on the history of the brand. In the same vein they must suffer the consequences of the history too. Can’t have it one way and not the other.


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[ZipBang]

Thought I would share a few pictures of Lange vs Patek on the movement side. I also think Lange has some unique technical engineering that makes their complications different to look at. Patek is excellent at making thin complications and unique cases but Lange brings something different. Look at the Zeitwerk, Lumen, Lange 1, Lange 1 perpetual calendar , instantaneous jumping of month, date, day…I can understand your perspective on the past and that is your personal choice. I don’t believe that A Lange and Söhne of current times has any connection to the past and would not perpetuate this type of thinking in any way. Therefore I don’t hold this brand responsible for any wrongdoing. I think their employees are passionate about watches and engineering just watch a few Anthony de Haas videos…








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[Gebbeth]

This talk of past sins is problematic. On the one hand, I get it. That period of time was one of the darkest in history. Pure hate leading to the deaths of tens of millions of people, approximately 6 million of which (and there was probably more) due to their ethic backgrounds, religious beliefs, and/or mental capacity or sexual orientation. There were labor slaves and other victims as well.

In the Pacific, there was also untold number of atrocities committed against soldiers and civilians alike, from biological warfare testing, to forced prostitution, torture, and mass killings.

However, where do you draw the line between the past and present and what was truly their involvement in these atrocities?

There were a handful of watchmakers that made timing instruments for the Axis, but could one say they "contributed" to actual killing? I don't know about that. I would say Porsche, Mercedes Benz, and the progenitor to Volkswagen probably had a more direct connection with killing. Bayer had a closer connection to killing. Mitsubishi had a more direct connection with killing. Not sure if providing watches and timing instruments make you that much more culpable.

If you are focusing on timing instruments, I'm sure Panerai, JLC, IWC, Stowa, Laco, or Seiko are not immune to these arguments.

So I'm not saying no one has the right to object to a brand because of their history or past. I think that's legitimate, but problematic, because there are a lot of companies who's hands are very unclean in that respect, and yet we buy from them.

Fast forward to today, how many products are made in China that we buy? We seem to be okay with that balance of cost vs "morality." The companies that made naplam and agent orange, they are giants of industry today.

Who doesn't like a Porsche or Audi or MB in their garage?

I must admit, if I could get my hands on a ALS Zeitwerk, I'd buy it in a heartbeat, and I would be happy in the knowledge that the current company and owners have had nothing to do with WWII, but that's not why I would want to get one. It's a damn beautiful piece of watchmaking and engineering and a keepsake for many generations of my family...hopefully.

[TomInNJ]

Originally Posted by mario1971

The same can be said about Jaeger-LeCoultre, and yet no one mentions them in the holy trinity.

I do. Kick the “Royal-Oaks-R-Us” company out of the Holy Trinity and replace it with JLC.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

This talk of past sins is problematic. On the one hand, I get it. That period of time was one of the darkest in history. Pure hate leading to the deaths of tens of millions of people, approximately 6 million of which (and there was probably more) due to their ethic backgrounds, religious beliefs, and/or mental capacity or sexual orientation. There were labor slaves and other victims as well.

In the Pacific, there was also untold number of atrocities committed against soldiers and civilians alike, from biological warfare testing, to forced prostitution, torture, and mass killings.

However, where do you draw the line between the past and present and what was truly their involvement in these atrocities?

There were a handful of watchmakers that made timing instruments for the Axis, but could one say they "contributed" to actual killing? I don't know about that. I would say Porsche, Mercedes Benz, and the progenitor to Volkswagen probably had a more direct connection with killing. Bayer had a closer connection to killing. Mitsubishi had a more direct connection with killing. Not sure if providing watches and timing instruments make you that much more culpable.

If you are focusing on timing instruments, I'm sure Panerai, JLC, IWC, Stowa, Laco, or Seiko are not immune to these arguments.

So I'm not saying no one has the right to object to a brand because of their history or past. I think that's legitimate, but problematic, because there are a lot of companies who's hands are very unclean in that respect, and yet we buy from them.

Fast forward to today, how many products are made in China that we buy? We seem to be okay with that balance of cost vs "morality." The companies that made naplam and agent orange, they are giants of industry today.

Who doesn't like a Porsche or Audi or MB in their garage?

I must admit, if I could get my hands on a ALS Zeitwerk, I'd buy it in a heartbeat, and I would be happy in the knowledge that the current company and owners have had nothing to do with WWII, but that's not why I would want to get one. It's a damn beautiful piece of watchmaking and engineering and a keepsake for many generations of my family...hopefully.

ALS reportedly used slave labor. They weren’t just around making stuff that was used for the war machine. So you can’t use the analogy of other companies who just tangentially involved. ALS was balls deep.

And the only reason “past sins” are being talked about is because the question on this thread is whether ALS should be trinity. The question is not whether ALS are good watches (they are if you like their style). But Trinity is about history just as much as it’s about watch quality. So history is relevant and rightfully considered.


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[EEpro]

Originally Posted by TomInNJ

I do. Kick the “Royal-Oaks-R-Us” company out of the Holy Trinity and replace it with JLC.

Their finishing would have to come up quite a bit. We all know they have the chops to do that of course.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

ALS reportedly used slave labor. They weren’t just around making stuff that was used for the war machine. So you can’t use the analogy of other companies who just tangentially involved. ALS was balls deep.

And the only reason “past sins” are being talked about is because the question on this thread is whether ALS should be trinity. The question is not whether ALS are good watches (they are if you like their style). But Trinity is about history just as much as it’s about watch quality. So history is relevant and rightfully considered.


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Do you like ALS in terms of their design and products?

[kaiserphoenix]

Not for me, even though my daily driver is a Lange 1 in white gold which I love deeply. The reason is because I just don’t think Lange has a diverse enough line up in terms of watch styles and complications to compete with say PP or even Vacheron. Vacheron tbf are flattering abit but Lange essentially have 1 style of watch case and they just create many variations of that same watch. It’s not a bad thing ofc necessarily as the variations in movements from the Zeitwerk to Datograph perpetual is impressive. But still it’s sort of the same style. Yes they have the Odysseus now but it’s just not as accessible relatively speaking or extensive enough compared to the Nautilus, Aquanaut or even Overseas lines. Ofcourse the total production numbers are very different but when you look at say Pp they have a great “entry level” watch line up, solid complication line up and if you’re wealthy plenty of options to spend over 500k if you need. Lange, after say 180k usd, ur options are quite limited.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

Do you like ALS in terms of their design and products?

Sure. Some of their stuff is fantastic.


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[DonLee]

ALS used to be one of my favorite brands, but they have several issues:
Their watches are too thick and big.
Lack of variety of sports watches, and the ONLY sports line they have, they are milking it right from the get go.
VERY poor customer service/aftersales. There's a story I read about someone bringing in their Zeikwork after it stopped working, so he left it with the AD. Someone at the AD opened the case without his consent, and when ALS saw the watch, they refused to repair under warranty. He had to go back and forth to find evidence that the watch was tampered AFTER he handed it off, and still ALS refused to accept.

finally, their watches are too expensive. The only watches that aren't, are for VIP only... so basically you need to spend many 10s of thousands to get into the brand.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by dmb359

Holy trinity is just an old nickname for those 3 brands, it doesnt mean other brands are inferior.

As best i can tell, the phrase "Holy Trinity" was a marketing term six decades(!) ago by three Swiss manufacturers. No one has been able to pinpoint facts of the 'rules and requirements' to be part of the 'Holy Trinity'. Do you know?

Besides, it is from six decades ago (60 years). Obviously Holy Trinity has zero meaning within today's world, other than as a reference to history waaay back in the 1960s. Pretty please prove me wrong. Anyone? Have asked magazine editors, etc, and not a single person has come up with facts of the rules and requirements, let alone does anyone here know who / which organization voted for these three brands 60 years ago?

Originally Posted by trackingtime

the holy trinity talk has always been Swiss manufactures only (apart from indies) that's the whole point

Exactly, it appears the Holy Trinity is nothing more than a very, very old Swiss marketing campaign brought forth by three brands.

Originally Posted by TomInNJ

I do. Kick the “Royal-Oaks-R-Us” company out of the Holy Trinity and replace it with JLC.

Love your enthusiasm for JLC, truly do, yet we can not travel back in time to the 1960s and change their marketing campaign. Of course if you happen to have a DeLorean with a Flux Capacitor and a way to generate 1.21 gigawatts.... If we're playing Make Believe, may as well add in time travel


Here's other examples of 1960s marketing campaigns, so you have a reference of what ad-men felt was able to influence consumers to consume / buy.





And of course how could we ever forget....

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Various sources mention that ALS used slave labor to make war instruments. Slaves dude. That’s not guilt by association.

Kind of like on Schindler's list?

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

Various sources mention that ALS used slave labor to make war instruments. Slaves dude. That’s not guilt by association. And not trinity worthy.

Also, to this idea that they are two separate companies (the old ALS and the resurrected ALS): the name of the company was intentional. The advertisement at the time (1994) was ALS “is back” … “the legend has come home.” They capitalized on the history of the brand. In the same vein they must suffer the consequences of the history too. Can’t have it one way and not the other.

Uhm, you do realize the Swiss banks were complicit with the Nazis, do you not.
I'm sure you are boycotting them if you live in Basel. It seems a little darker to be profiting off the death of people, rather than the labor, that allowed them to stay alive.

I assume you boycott all Japanese companies that started before WWII, There atrocities although not publicized as much are probably worse than Germany's. So, no Toyota, Nissan, Seiko, Citizen and heaven forbid Mitsubishi.

Cannot buy anything from Russia.

Cannot buy anything from Spain. Because you know, the Inquisition.

I'm trying to think of a country that you can look back at their history and find them sin free...... Still thinking.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

Uhm, you do realize the Swiss banks were complicit with the Nazis, do you not.
I'm sure you are boycotting them if you live in Basel. It seems a little darker to be profiting off the death of people, rather than the labor, that allowed them to stay alive.

I assume you boycott all Japanese companies that started before WWII, There atrocities although not publicized as much are probably worse than Germany's. So, no Toyota, Nissan, Seiko, Citizen and heaven forbid Mitsubishi.

Cannot buy anything from Russia.

Cannot buy anything from Spain. Because you know, the Inquisition.

I'm trying to think of a country that you can look back at their history and find them sin free...... Still thinking.

Don't forget all the African tribal warlords that rounded up their enemies and sold them as slaves to the Portuguese at various ports of call.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

Uhm, you do realize the Swiss banks were complicit with the Nazis, do you not.
I'm sure you are boycotting them if you live in Basel. It seems a little darker to be profiting off the death of people, rather than the labor, that allowed them to stay alive.

I assume you boycott all Japanese companies that started before WWII, There atrocities although not publicized as much are probably worse than Germany's. So, no Toyota, Nissan, Seiko, Citizen and heaven forbid Mitsubishi.

Cannot buy anything from Russia.

Cannot buy anything from Spain. Because you know, the Inquisition.

I'm trying to think of a country that you can look back at their history and find them sin free...... Still thinking.

You take it too far. The question is not whether you should buy ALS or whether you should boycott them or whether they are well made watches, even. Those are totally different conversations.

The question was only whether ALS should be in the trinity. My argument speaks to that and only to that.

Because they have an ugly history I don’t think you could consider them Trinity. But I’m not advocating boycotting them… and I’m not commenting on the quality of ALS.


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[dekoske]

Wearing a 309.031 grand Langematik - hands down for me the best watch I've had the chance to get my hands on. From history to internal workings.