Be Careful of Wingate's Watches

[rolex ny]

I bought a President from Wingate. I was assured that it was genuine with customized dial and bezel. I went to Rolex for an appraisal for insurance purposes. Turns out the Dial and Bezel are not genuine Rolex pieces. They refused to allow a return even though on the website they guaranttee the authenticity. They argue custom means it is not genuine Rolex pieces. I always understood than when buying a watch it can be customized at the store and you get the genuine pieces. Rolex states "The addition of non-genuine parts to any Rolex watch renders it a counterfeit as defined by Federal Law. It is therefore unlawful to sell or offer such modified watch for sale." I want to return the watch but because it is more than 3 days, they refuse to allow a return. It takes Rolex more than 3 days to give the report!

[usbzoso]

sorry to hear that bud, how did you pay? Call your credit card company/bank/open depute with paypal. 3 days is not even enough time to get confirmation from RSC that watch is genuine so they its a bs to begin with.

[gqllc]

Just dispute the charges if you paid via credit card

[rolex ny]

Thanks for the advice. I am contesting it with the credit card company. I just want everyone to know as I wouldn't recommend doing business with Wingate.

[gasman94]

You may want to post this on the buyers/sellers forum. As someone who just dealt with a poor seller myself, I sympathize. I hope everything works out for you.

[gqllc]

Go to their website and take screen shots of their guarantee. You can email that to the credit card company if it indeed says what you mentioned...Send them the info from Rolex as well.

[marcinthemiddle]

I'm confused: did you know the dial and bezel were 'customized' before you bought it?
If so- most watch companies will consider alterations (addition of stones, etc.) To parts dials, bezels bracelets...not OEM, and thus not 'authentic'. Just my .02¢
Hope you can recoup your money-

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by marcinthemiddle

i'm confused: Did you know the dial and bezel were 'customized' before you bought it?
If so- most watch companies will consider alterations (addition of stones, etc.) to parts dials, bezels bracelets...not oem, and thus not 'authentic'. Just my .02¢
hope you can recoup your money-

+1

[sleddog]

I have moved this out of the review section as it doesn't pertain to that area......

Normally, this would go into the watchout area if there was a clear wrong doing or false/advert or watch...

But, I tend to disagree with your interpretation of the sale...
"Customized" is just another word for "Aftermarket" or altered/non-genuine, and most here would know that these parts were not Rolex just by the words, without even viewing the piece..

Although I understand your frustration, I'm not sure you'll have a legal leg to stand on...Maybe in the US, I'm not up with the laws you speak of there...?

Ultimately, to me, the watch was described accurately as to what you said, and Rolex even told you this.

Good luck with a refund, I wish you the best!

[kareemthedream33]

I understand your dilemma but as soon as you said the word "customized" I immediately knew that it meant aftermarket. That may just be because I'm so used to hanging around TRF and shopping for watches that I'm used to the terminology though.

[Rolex116520]

Customized , personalized , aftermarket and OEM ( used for car parts ) .
I guess when the bezel and dial were original parts fitted by Rolex the add would have read " all original " Rolex watch and the price tag would have been much higher .
To me the seller disclosed that fact .. of course I'm european . In europe we do not sue a fast food company because we drop hot coffee on our lap .. we expect it to be hot .. it's coffee . We would complain if the coffee were cold . but that is just us ..old world people .
This tendency to wave one's own responsibility by blaming others because we shoot first and questions later .

[kareemthedream33]

Originally Posted by Rolex116520

Customized , personalized , aftermarket and OEM ( used for car parts ) .
I guess when the bezel and dial were original parts fitted by Rolex the add would have read " all original " Rolex watch and the price tag would have been much higher .
To me the seller disclosed that fact .. of course I'm european . In europe we do not sue a fast food company because we drop hot coffee on our lap .. we expect it to be hot .. it's coffee . We would complain if the coffee were cold . but that is just us ..old world people .
This tendency to wave one's own responsibility by blaming others because we shoot first and questions later .

I'm suing you for writing that.

[Mosco]

Originally Posted by kareemthedream33

I'm suing you for writing that.

[Grissom]

Originally Posted by kareemthedream33

I'm suing you for writing that.

I think we may even have potential for a Class Action here.....

[rolex ny]

Just a comment to the moderator, my understanding of customized is that it can be customized with genuine rolex parts. When you buy from a rolex retail outlet, don't you have the option to customize as well? Do they customize with genuine or after market parts from a rolex retail store? Now, I'm not a rolex or watch expert so if that is the industry jargon to look out for, then fine. In that case, i'm not looking to sue just accept the return of the watch. According to rolex, i repeat and this is a direct quote "the addition of non-genuine parts to any Rolex watch renders it counterfeit as defined by Federal Law. It is therefore unlawful to sell or offer such modified watch for sale." I am disappointed that you wish to protect companies that mislead at the least people who do not know the in's and out's of the watch industry.

[SkyKing31]

I know someone who has had good dealings with Bob Wingate .. I hope you can resolve you're problem

[marcinthemiddle]

You know- Rob was trying to help you. We all are.
It's a shame you chose to misinterpret Rob's post- it's actually quite helpful.

[Rockrolex]

Originally Posted by rolex ny

Just a comment to the moderator, my understanding of customized is that it can be customized with genuine rolex parts. When you buy from a rolex retail outlet, don't you have the option to customize as well? Do they customize with genuine or after market parts from a rolex retail store? Now, I'm not a rolex or watch expert so if that is the industry jargon to look out for, then fine. In that case, i'm not looking to sue just accept the return of the watch. According to rolex, i repeat and this is a direct quote "the addition of non-genuine parts to any Rolex watch renders it counterfeit as defined by Federal Law. It is therefore unlawful to sell or offer such modified watch for sale." I am disappointed that you wish to protect companies that mislead at the least people who do not know the in's and out's of the watch industry.

Anytime you buy from someone other than a Rolex AD (e.g., buying on-line - because Rolex does not permit its ADs to sell on line), you can almost always guarantee that the "custom" parts will be aftermarket and not authorized by Rolex. Your only possible recourse now is through your credit card company. It is possible they may not accept your disputed charge since you got what you paid for. But good luck.

[jnkay]

I don't agree that it is counterfeit. Aftermarket parts are perfectly legal, as long as they don't say "Rolex" or use the trademarked crown. If you modify an OEM Rolex part by changing out hour markers with aftermarket diamond, for example, I don't see how that is counterfeit either. That is customizing a legit dial on a legit watch. What about the Rolexes sold in Art Basel every year that are blinged out? Counterfeit? I think not.
To answer your question, Rolex does not customize watches. With some models, you can exchange dials, but there is no such thing as customizing by Rolex.

[George Ab]

Wingate's has been around a long time selling watches. I used to look at their watches back in 1997. They must be doing something right.

[sleddog]

Originally Posted by rolex ny

Just a comment to the moderator, my understanding of customized is that it can be customized with genuine rolex parts. When you buy from a rolex retail outlet, don't you have the option to customize as well? Do they customize with genuine or after market parts from a rolex retail store? Now, I'm not a rolex or watch expert so if that is the industry jargon to look out for, then fine. In that case, i'm not looking to sue just accept the return of the watch. According to rolex, i repeat and this is a direct quote "the addition of non-genuine parts to any Rolex watch renders it counterfeit as defined by Federal Law. It is therefore unlawful to sell or offer such modified watch for sale." I am disappointed that you wish to protect companies that mislead at the least people who do not know the in's and out's of the watch industry.

Welcome back.....
I think you have misread my comments and many others here who are trying to help!

AD's will change things to suite the customer only under strict rules..
The parts usually switched, will always be genuine Rolex and will only be exchanged if that watch has these options already on offer for that particular model. IE: You could change a bracelet from an Oyster Style to a Jubilee or vice versa. You could change a dial colour or a bezel surround from fluted to smooth...Again, this can only be done if that model has these options from Rolex and the customer feels they don't want to wait for one to be ordered to spec..An AD will not, stray from this and the watch is 100% genuine....(In some coutries, dealers will not alter at all)
Now, people all the time will by these aftermarket diamond bezels and dials later in ownership for one reason or another...This does not make the watch fake. It makes it "Custom"... Just like if you put 24 inch sport rims on your Cadillac. This doesn't make it fake, it makes it customized!

Now as far as the "Law".
That would be a broad standard response from Rolex USA IMO....It's a well known fact that Rolex will not service or work on a modified watch until it is returned to original (meaning all parts genuine).
We are however playing in a grey area...A simple bezel and dial change does not make the whole watch counterfeit...Only partly!

Now remember, you purchased from a reseller and not infact a Rolex authorized dealer. So, they are not bound to the Rolex rule of 100% genuine and no aftermarket parts!
IMO, the dealer described the watch correctly and you simply misunderstood to think it was 100% Rolex...A little more research would have told you this!
For this reason, I did not move this to our watchout section because I feel you weren't defrauded.

Now, as a moderator here, I can assure you I do my best to protect the members here from actual fraud that includes scams and complete fakes that are not even 1% Rolex!! Infact, I'm passionate about it!!
I to am disappointed that you think I'm trying to protect this dealer, when actually, I was trying to point out a fact that no smoke and mirrors was dealt to you.
You were described the watch you got, nothing more.

Now, this thread has been left in the open for all members (& public) to make their own choice in the matter of this seller..I'd say that's free and open speech, and not a coverup of any type!

As I said in my first post, best of luck with a refund!
Let us know how it goes as I would be interested to hear of how the customer service treated your request.

[Rockrolex]

Originally Posted by Rolex116520

Customized , personalized , aftermarket and OEM ( used for car parts ) .
I guess when the bezel and dial were original parts fitted by Rolex the add would have read " all original " Rolex watch and the price tag would have been much higher .
To me the seller disclosed that fact .. of course I'm european . In europe we do not sue a fast food company because we drop hot coffee on our lap .. we expect it to be hot .. it's coffee . We would complain if the coffee were cold . but that is just us ..old world people .
This tendency to wave one's own responsibility by blaming others because we shoot first and questions later .

Originally Posted by kareemthedream33

I'm suing you for writing that.

Since he's in Europe and you're in Canada, the best place for you to sue is in the States. I will volunteer to defend Rolex116520 and we will countersue you for bringing a frivolous lawsuit. I will then collect untold millions in punitive damages, after which, with my 30% share of the contingency fee, I will retire and enjoy all my genuine Rolexes.

[marcinthemiddle]

Originally Posted by Rockrolex

Since he's in Europe and you're in Canada, the best place for you to sue is in the States. I will volunteer to defend Rolex116520 and we will countersue you for bringing a frivolous lawsuit. I will then collect untold millions in punitive damages, after which, with my 30% share of the contingency fee, I will retire and enjoy all my genuine Rolexes.

I'll volunteer to be a witness to said 'frivolous lawsuit'-

[bkandj2000]

Seller must have had the fear struck in them at one point or another (or knew a seller who did):

http://cgi.ebay.com/100-AUTH-CARTIER...ht_8893wt_1135


"WAS 100% AUTH CARTIER BALLON BLEU SS DIAMONDS #W69012Z4"


"THIS WATCH HAS NOT BEEN USED, WORN, OR SIZED. IT COMES WITH THE ORIGINAL CARTIER RED BOX & PAPERS, plus our one year warranty, and an appraisal certificate.


THIS WATCH WAS CONSIDERED A 100% AUTHENTIC MENS FULL SIZE STAINLESS STEEL CARTIER BALLON BLEU (model W69012Z4) AT ONE POINT. IT IS NOT CONSIDERED A CARTIER WATCH BY CARTIER ANYMORE BECAUSE IT HAS AFTERMARKET DIAMONDS ADDED TO THE BEZEL. The diamonds are genuine diamonds, approximately 2.00ct tcw, VS1 clarity, F-G color, set by a professional jeweler, not by Cartier.

NOTHING ELSE HAS BEEN ADDED ON THE WATCH, EXCEPT THE DIAMONDS BUT CARTIER STILL DOES NOT HONOR IT AS AN AUTHENTIC CARTIER WATCH ANYMORE BECAUSE THE DIAMONDS WERE ADDED AFTERMARKET BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN CARTIER. The watch has also been professionally high polished.

THIS WATCH HAS NOT BEEN USED, WORN, OR SIZED. IT COMES WITH THE ORIGINAL CARTIER RED BOX & PAPERS, plus our one year warranty and an appraisal certificate. THE 1 YEAR WARRANTY IS ISSUED BY OUR COMPANY, NOT BY CARTIER."

[marcinthemiddle]

Nah- his listings have been reading like that for some time now....

[kareemthedream33]

Originally Posted by marcinthemiddle

I'll volunteer to be a witness to said 'frivolous lawsuit'-

Haha well I go to school in Boston so I can sue from here. Also, you guys can sue me for millions, but the best case scenario for you is to obtain my student debts!

[bkandj2000]

Originally Posted by marcinthemiddle

Nah- his listings have been reading like that for some time now....

Yes, but the timing of when that seller started extreme disclosure is not the point. More than likely, if Wingate's listed their "customized" watches similarly, this thread would not have started...

And this thread probably would not currently occupy the #3 top search result on Google query via Internet Explorer, "customized rolex counterfeit law" of which returns the linked title, "Be Careful of Wingate's Watches - Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forums".

Probably not be the kind of publicity to which Wingate's would like to be associated.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by rolex ny

I bought a President from Wingate. I was assured that it was genuine with customized dial and bezel. I went to Rolex for an appraisal for insurance purposes. Turns out the Dial and Bezel are not genuine Rolex pieces. They refused to allow a return even though on the website they guaranttee the authenticity. . . .!

I find it interesting that your only post is to bash Wingates and seem to have no other interest in one of the most knowledgeable Rolex Discussion Forums available..

If you had been here before the purchase, discussing Rolex watches and Wingates (or any other used watch Dealer), you would have been advised that this dealer specializes in authentic watches fitted with aftermarket parts.... a legal enterprise. You would have been additionally advised not to go to Rolex for an appraisal as they will not give you one and you need a jeweler to assess the diamonds/jewelry separately from the watch.

Additionally, Rolex has been trying for years to classify any modified Rolex as a counterfeit without success. The only time it becomes an illegal activity is if it is fraudulantly marketed or trademark infringed. It is not a trademark infringement to add diamonds to an authentic dial or to add a diamond bezel to a watch without one..

Your concern is noted and it stands as information for others who may choose to purchase at Wingates. However, most would disagree with your interpretation of what they are offering......

[Kevin B]

Rolex has been trying for years to classify any modified Rolex as a counterfeit without success

Can't blame them for trying. There I.P. (Industrial property) attorneys must never sleep

[kareemthedream33]

Originally Posted by Kevin B

Can't blame them for trying. There I.P. (Industrial property) attorneys must never sleep

Oh they sleep, on giant piles of money.