Tudor Rolex 9050/0 California dial - what's the deal with these watches?

[onerower1]

Does anyone know much about these Rolex Tudor 9050/1 California dial watches? What years they were manufactured? For what markets? For the military? It just seems odd that BOTH the Rolex and Tudor brand names appear on the dial, and yet they are sold by reputable dealers, so they look to be legit. What is the deal with these watches? I've seen them listed anywhere from $500 to $2,500 depending on the dealer and condition of the watches.

ALso, it looks like this 9050/0 shares a similar movement with the Tudor Prince and Tudor Ranger, is that correct?

I've posted some pics of these 9050/0 watches here. Also, here are a few dealer listings:

http://robertmaron.com/product.php?p...at=256&page=13

http://www.theclassicwatchonline.co....or-9050-0.html

Someone must know what these watches are all about... I am intrigued!

Thanks.

[mrbill2mrbill2]

Rolex and Tudor on the dial usually means Fake or refinished dial adding Rolex. Hence the term "Roudor".

Wait for Tudorman to respond.

[mcjp6]

Originally Posted by mrbill2mrbill2

Rolex and Tudor on the dial usually means Fake or refinished dial adding Rolex. Hence the term "Roudor".

I agree.

Where is the listing for this watch?

[nowzen]

They are redone dials... that is what the 'California dial' means.

Rolex and Tudor did not appear together on these watches as
originally produced.

There are a few rare examples of Rolex watches with both Rolex and Tudor on them from the 20's and 30's where 'Tudor' was used as a model name. After Tudor became a brand in 1946, Rolex & Tudor have not appeared together on the dial.

[tudorman8276]

...other registered Rolex Trademarks are often ADDED to the dial's of Tudor watches.

...as noted above, Rolex is a brand unto itself just as Tudor is a brand unto itself.

...the use of ANY registered Rolex trademark on anything that did not exist on when left the factory IS trademark infringement AND violates the Lanham Act.

...in part, here is a small summation of infringement from US Law as and borrowed from http://cyber.law.harvard.edu

"7. What constitutes trademark infringement?

If a party owns the rights to a particular trademark, that party can sue subsequent parties for trademark infringement. 15 U.S.C. �� 1114, 1125. The standard is "likelihood of confusion." To be more specific, the use of a trademark in connection with the sale of a good constitutes infringement if it is likely to cause consumer confusion as to the source of those goods or as to the sponsorship or approval of such goods. In deciding whether consumers are likely to be confused, the courts will typically look to a number of factors, including: (1) the strength of the mark; (2) the proximity of the goods; (3) the similarity of the marks; (4) evidence of actual confusion; (5) the similarity of marketing channels used; (6) the degree of caution exercised by the typical purchaser; (7) the defendant's intent. Polaroid Corp. v. Polarad Elect. Corp., 287 F.2d 492 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, 368 U.S. 820 (1961).

So, for example, the use of an identical mark on the same product would clearly constitute infringement. If I manufacture and sell computers using the mark "Apple," my use of that mark will likely cause confusion among consumers, since they may be misled into thinking that the computers are made by Apple Computer, Inc. Using a very similar mark on the same product may also give rise to a claim of infringement, if the marks are close enough in sound, appearance, or meaning so as to cause confusion. So, for example, "Applet" computers may be off-limits; perhaps also "Apricot." On the other end of the spectrum, using the same term on a completely unrelated product will not likely give rise to an infringement claim. Thus, Apple Computer and Apple Records can peacefully co-exist, since consumers are not likely to think that the computers are being made by the record company, or vice versa.

Between the two ends of the spectrum lie many close cases, in which the courts will apply the factors listed above. So, for example, where the marks are similar and the products are also similar, it will be difficult to determine whether consumer confusion is likely. In one case, the owners of the mark "Slickcraft" used the mark in connection with the sale of boats used for general family recreation. They brought an infringement action against a company that used the mark "Sleekcraft" in connection with the sale of high-speed performance boats. Because the two types of boats served substantially different markets, the court concluded that the products were related but not identical. However, after examining many of the factors listed above, the court concluded that the use of Sleekcraft was likely to cause confusion among consumers. AMF Inc. v. Sleekcraft Boats, 599 F.2d 341 (9th Cir. 1979)."

[Kevin B]

Where is the listing for this watch?

http://robertmaron.com/product.php?p...at=256&page=13

http://www.theclassicwatchonline.co....or-9050-0.html

Follow the links

[onerower1]

Sounds like everyone believes these are fake and refinished watched, but it looks like there are so many of them being sold, including by reputable dealers of vintage watches. Is everyone certain these are not the real deal?

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by onerower1

Sounds like everyone believes these are fake and refinished watched, but it looks like there are so many of them being sold, including by reputable dealers of vintage watches. Is everyone certain these are not the real deal?

...REFINISHED dials to present as something they are NOT, will NEVER BE, and NEVER were.

[kilyung]

Originally Posted by nowzen

They are redone dials... that is what the 'California dial' means.

Sorry but that's wrong. California dials incorporate both roman and arabic numerals. It's not exclusive to Rolex either.

[onerower1]

The dials do look strange to me with both Rolex and Tudor names on them, that's why I posted this thread. BUT, given that so many reliable vintage dealers sell them in a variety of colors and patterns on the dials leads me to believe that they could be real / authentic... I just don't know the history behind these watches. Curious what people know? Are these military watches?

[springer]

The dial depicted here is 100% fake. Whether you believe the dealer is reputable does not make the watch genuine. Many people thought Bernie Madoff was a legitimate financial advisor but he stole millions from his clients. There are many reputable dealers that have had their watches presented here in the watch out section for being misrepresented or being fake or containing fake parts. I, along with tudorman, have been fighting these fake Tudor dialed watches with eBay for several years. While it might appear that there are many listed on eBay, it was rampant years ago.

Also, as someone else mentioned, there were genuine watches made with the dial markers as found on this fake Tudor and they are known as California dials. Be that as it may, the watch being discussed here is a fake and no such Tudor was made with this dial or identified as a Tudor Rolex like this dial.

[onerower1]

Just found a review of these types of watches on eBay... take it with a grain of salt, but it certainly helps shed some light on the Rolex Tudor 6050s...

http://reviews.ebay.com/California-D...00000000821781


The vintage Tudor watch (1946) is a product of it's parent company ROLEX. It is made of the highest quality components assembled, tested, and installed by ROLEX. The main difference between a Tudor watch and a ROLEX watch such as the DateJust is the movement itself. ROLEX watches use the high grade in-house ROLEX movement while Tudor brand watches utilized the highest grade 17-25 jewel (+/-) Swiss ETA (Ebauche) movement (per ROLEX specifications) inspected and installed by ROLEX technicians at the factory. ROLEX switched from their own in-house movement to ETA to supply the movements for their Tudor watches in the 1960's. The Tudor ETA movement is considered by many experts to have the same accuracy and reliability as the comparitable in-house produced ROLEX movements; consider that the ROLEX Daytona used an ETA movement up until 2002. All other components including the crown, case, dial, hands and crystal were manufactured by ROLEX.

The California Dial Tudor watch in most cases has had it's dial refinished by a private vendor, not an uncommon practice with vintage watches and has the ROLEX name prominently added to the face of the dial, something that wasn't there when it left the factory. To a ROLEX/Tudor purist this practice has caused much heated debate both pro and con. Unlike ROLEX watches which have an unmarked case back, most vintage Tudor watches have the ROLEX name and the ROLEX logo clearly embossed on the Tudor case back at the ROLEX factory!

This begs the question; is a vintage Tudor a ROLEX? It's a watch that was assembled at the ROLEX plant by ROLEX employees according to ROLEX specifications under ROLEX supervision and founded by the same ROLEX founder, Hans Wilsdorf(1946). A more accurate statement might be that the vintage Tudor represents a different ROLEX model (like the DateJust or Submariner) manufactured by ROLEX. The same aspects of a vintage Tudor wrist watch are found in other vintage ROLEX watches such as a Swiss ETA movement (Daytona), a chronometer version, a diamond bezel version and of course the famous ROLEX Oyster case and 2.5 magnification cyclops. The vintage Tudor was NEVER manufactured to be inferior to other ROLEX models but rather to be less "pricey" in order to appeal to a broader market and increase company revenues.


What is the value of a vintage California Dial Tudor? As with ALL watches what the market will bear which all to often is influenced by the amount of advertising dollars spent. Consider that the best watches cost the manufacturer about $200 to produce (plus or minus). This of course does not reflect the incorporation of any precious metal or precious gems such as a diamond bezel (jewels for the watch movement are most often man-made and are relatively inexpensive). ROLEX stopped distribution of the Tudor line of watches into the United States around 2002 although they are readily available to the rest of the world. Tudor quality and the prestige associated with ROLEX name accounts for Tudor's popularity and maybe it's these qualities plus the varied and unique appearance of the California Dialed Tudor that explains its popularity .

Thanks to the premium grade Swiss Ebauche ETA movement (accurate to within 5 seconds per 24 hours of daily wear) I paid less than $75 for a complete overhaul of my vintage California Dial Tudor. Try pricing an overhaul for a ROLEX DateJust.

Photos:

Vintage"California Dial" Tudor watch
Tudor case back is marked ROLEX Oyster case at the factory
Vintage 1940's ROLEX watch with factory original dial


Guide ID: 10000000000821781Guide created: 03/27/06 (updated 03/24/12)

[springer]

onerower1, it appears that you are here to "troll" the forum, but it really isn't working. I suspect by your persistence that you might be a seller of these fake Tudors!!! If you are not a seller as I suspect, then take some time and utilize the internet for your own research regarding these fake-dialed Tudors.

Further, the missive you provided from the ebay seller is misleading and only intended to enhance one's sales on ebay. It's another ebay scam!

[onerower1]

Actually, Springer, you are incorrect, but I appreciate your vigilance... I love Rolex vintage watches and just a mere amateur collector. I admit I do ask a lot of questions, but I'm trying to get up the learning curve... and I've never sold any watches ever, so I am not a "seller" let alone a "seller of these fake Tudors." Lol. Last month, I bought two older gold case Rolexes (1503 datejust 14K, and 6590 bombay 18K) - check out my previous posts about my purchases (I hope these weren't "fake" also - just kidding; I took them to the Rolex Svc Center in Beverly Hills, CA and the service supervisor I met with confirmed both were authentic), though I'm relatively new to this forum.

More recently, since I already have a Submariner 168000 with a stainless wrist band which I'm not going to remove, I've been looking around to buy an inexpensive vintage stainless steel Tudor or Rolex to place on a NATO strap with my university's colors... so these quirky looking Rolex Tudor 6050/0 models caught my attention. I thought these looked interesting, but it now seems obvious (but not when I first asked questions) they are not what they appear to be!

Springer... don't be so quick to judge! I have no agenda other than to look around for another watch to BUY (not sell) and continue feeding my passion for Rolex watches.

[springer]

Onerower1, while I don't consider myself quick to judge, and based on your persistence in several posts, it follows a pattern of "trollers" than have been here before. So with that said, I offer my apology and hope you enjoy your time here on the forum. Good luck on your hunt for another Rolex product. There are many reputable sellers here on TRF.

[onerower1]

Thanks Springer! I look up to guys like you who have so much knowledge about Rolex watches. Maybe someday I will get there...

[onerower1]

Here is one more of these fake watch listings on FleaBay (I posted pics of this one in my initial post earlier)... watch out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300684787299...84.m1423.l2649

Though... I'm guessing based on what others are saying that this one might be authentic???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270934798387...84.m1423.l2649

[springer]

Originally Posted by onerower1

Here is one more of these fake watch listings on FleaBay (I posted pics of this one in my initial post earlier)... watch out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300684787299...84.m1423.l2649

Though... I'm guessing based on what others are saying that this one might be authentic???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270934798387...84.m1423.l2649

The second listing you give my be a period-correct style dial, but it is definitely a re-dial or a fake dial made from a new blank to enhance the value of the watch.

Edit: The seller states the watch is a re-dial. Genuine, California-dialed Tudors are rather expensive, at least that has been my observation in the past.

[blaine mattison]

What years they were manufactured?? ( borrowed from the
first post)

answer: to be on the safe side, within a ten years (10)

I HAVE SEEN THEM SOLD IN A "LOT" OF LARGE FREEZER BAGS.
50 plus in a bag.

just pick your dial colors!

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by onerower1

Here is one more of these fake watch listings on FleaBay (I posted pics of this one in my initial post earlier)... watch out:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300684787299...84.m1423.l2649

Though... I'm guessing based on what others are saying that this one might be authentic???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270934798387...84.m1423.l2649

[springer]

Originally Posted by blaine mattison

What years they were manufactured?? ( borrowed from the
first post)

answer: to be on the safe side, within a ten years (10)

I HAVE SEEN THEM SOLD IN A "LOT" OF LARGE FREEZER BAGS.
50 plus in a bag.

just pick your dial colors!

Blaine, nice to see you back!

[tudorman8276]

...AND...hopefully the eBay guide will also be HISTORY within the next few days!!

...will keep you all posted!

[tudorman8276]

...the eBay Tudor Guide is HISTORY.

...looks like the eBay legal team thought the same way I do!!

...the Tudor eBay guide is now HISTORY.

[springer]

Originally Posted by tudorman8276

...the eBay Tudor Guide is HISTORY.

...looks like the eBay legal team thought the same way I do!!

...the Tudor eBay guide is now HISTORY.

Great job Stan and great news for many potential buyers. This was a thorn for many years and very misleading to those that did not understand the difference between a Tudor or Rolex watch.

[cajunron]

Seems to be a lot of folks out there that just won't accept the fact that these California Tudors are garbage.

[nowzen]

Originally Posted by kilyung

Sorry but that's wrong. California dials incorporate both roman and arabic numerals. It's not exclusive to Rolex either.

Excuse me, I should have elborated.

Rolex produced arabic/roman dials in the 40's. It was not referred to as a 'California dial' at that time. This style was popular and copied by the Los Angeles dial company who redialed thousands of Rolex (and Tudor?) oysters and bubblebacks. That is why this style later became known as 'California Dials'.

'California Dial' is used today to refer to:
a/ the watches redialed by the California company and similar companies
b/ Rolex watches with the arabic/roman dial mimicked by the California company.
c/ any brand watch incorporating a arabic/roman dial pattern

Originally Posted by rgdejong

Seems to be a lot of folks out there that just won't accept the fact that these California Tudors are garbage.

A Rolex or Tudor watch that is redialled and labelled Rolex Tudor is misinformation - misidentified and has diminished value... but its certainly not 'garbage'.

[cajunron]

A Rolex or Tudor watch that is redialled and labelled Rolex Tudor is misinformation - misidentified and has diminished value... but its certainly not 'garbage'.[/QUOTE]

Redialled, misinformation, misidentified, yada yada yada. You can put horns on a cow but that doesn't make it a bull. If it's meant to deceive someone out of their hard earned money, it's garbage to ME.

[nowzen]

Originally Posted by rgdejong

Redialled, misinformation, misidentified, yada yada yada. You can put horns on a cow but that doesn't make it a bull. If it's meant to deceive someone out of their hard earned money, it's garbage to ME.

Whatever.

A watch made in the Rolex factory, with Rolex Oyster case and a 25j ETA 2784automatic movement... I'd be happy to take that 'garbage' and scratch out the 'Rolex'.

[cajunron]

If it is an original Rolex watch that has been redialed, I stand corrected and apologize to NOWZEN if I have offended.

[GBOGH]

Don't dig that dial at all...

Great info here. Thanks!