Laser welding...???

[Clay]

Most of us here would not purchase a relumed vintage piece...

What about one that has been laser welded???

[linesiders]

You gonna drive that Porsche around with a dent because you took it racing?

Drive it like you stole it and put it in the shop. I think Laser Welding is fine when disclosed. When I have mt Flake redone I may get the dings buffed out with a laser. Chasing an all original safe queen might be a different story.

[jedly1]

Tricky ... Especially if you believe like I that many many watches have already entered circulation with welded cases and are now the pride and joy of many a 'unpolished' collector....


If you get your pieces from a point in the chain other than the original owner and you don't inspect it super super close or at an Rsc you probably won't know ...

And then let's complicate it further .. Rolex geneva have laser welders and repair dings ... Other Rsc are set to follow ... To the best if my knowledge at geneva this is just part of the casing dept that refurbs your case as part if a service and isn't necessarily declared separately ....

So yes I think in time , the car analogy will ring true ... Dent a wing repair a wing ....how what where will get lost in the sands of time and become irrelevant if the repair had been done to concourse standard

[springer]

I think most of us mainstream collectors can sort out what has been laser repaired and what has not - especially if the watch is pristine. There aren't too many vintage watches left that still look new unlike many of these laser repaired watches. For me, restoring a watch that needs a little laser welding is not any different than any other refinishing done to an old, beat-up watch. Many have had their hands repaired, cases cleaned and buffed, dials touched up etc etc.

In the end, nice, original watches will always be the best value for your money. Nicely restored watches seem to do fairly well also, but they are what they are. It isn't much different than vintage cars - some need restoring and some are better off left alone with their decades of accumulated wear highlighting the beauty of what is still there and still original.

[crowncollection]

agree with springer, if disclosed no problem, many customers still want watches to look new as possible, of course some want untouched but that is truly a small percentage of total used sales worldwide imho

[colpol]

I think there was a discussion across on the VRF 4/ 6 months ago about laser welding

I guess if as Jed says Rolex themselves have started the process - then if done as part of a service - it's just on a par with polishing & case refurb

Bottom line - disclosure. Most people would just want to know so can base decision on the fact

[Foxy1]

Is laser welding used when removing "stretch" from bracelets?

[JustinK]

How can one tell a watch has been repaired using laser welding?

Is it detectable only when someone tries to misrepresent a case as unpolished or can it be detected for every repair?

[INDECS]

Originally Posted by Foxy1

Is laser welding used when removing "stretch" from bracelets?

It is used to add steel to the case when it has deep gauges, ding or scratches.
Then it is possible to polish the case back to its original shape.

[goldfixer21]

I have a laser welder in my shop, and I refinish numerous watches including Rolex. If metal has been added to the repair, it is much easier to detect. I try to not add metal, I simply use the laser to flow the metal back into the scratch or ding. The great thing about stainless steel, like platinum, is that due to it's hardness most case dings still have the metal there.It's just been moved.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by goldfixer21

I have a laser welder in my shop, and I refinish numerous watches including Rolex. If metal has been added to the repair, it is much easier to detect. I try to not add metal, I simply use the laser to flow the metal back into the scratch or ding. The great thing about stainless steel, like platinum, is that due to it's hardness most case dings still have the metal there.It's just been moved.

Interesting!

If adding metal what are the indications of such? Is it visible to the eye? Would you happen to have any pics?

[withthesword]

what if you add a similar metal? for example, if you have a stick of 904L and laser weld it to a 904L case, would it then be visually obvious?

[psv]

It is a brave new world out there. And this game just got even harder.

[withthesword]

i'm actually torn on this subject. on one hand, i think it's the buyers right to know whether there have been any modifications to a watch even if it's been advertised as unpolished or untouched.
on the other hand, with the search for the unpolished or untouched vintage rolex growing ever stronger, if the laser welding doesn't produce any visual queues to the procedure, and the buyer ends up with their 'perfect' watch, is it really that bad?

i've stayed away from vintage for several reasons, but one of the chief ones is that the price of unpolished pieces is significantly higher than one that's been noticeably polished. secondly, with an overpolished or somewhat corroded case, the risk of water intrusion is much higher because of pitting or fitment issues. is laser welding a case to make it factory spec again really that bad? even if you weren't told about it?

[Clay]

I suppose everyone has his or her definition of what is "Fair & Honest"...

To my way of thinking, if, as a seller, you know for a fact that the case of a watch that you are selling has be "Altered" in some way, then I think it is only "Fair & Honest" to mention it...

Time and time again I see people selling watches and just "Not Mentioning" certain things unless they are asked...

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly with me...!!!

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by Clay

Most of us here would not purchase a relumed vintage piece...

What about one that has been laser welded???

I would prefer one that has not. Depends how extensive it is, I guess.
Generally, I'd say no thanks.

Very good point made about moving existing material around to 'fill' a dent or deep scratch, as opposed to adding 'foreign' matter. Makes sense - you put a dent in the case and it likely hasn't chipped off or fallen out.. Just spread it back! Less of an issue than filler, for me.

Having said that, still; no thanks.

[SLS]

Originally Posted by jedly1

Tricky ...If you get your pieces from a point in the chain other than the original owner and you don't inspect it super super close or at an Rsc you probably won't know ...

And then let's complicate it further .. Rolex geneva have laser welders and repair dings ... Other Rsc are set to follow ... To the best if my knowledge at geneva this is just part of the casing dept that refurbs your case as part if a service and isn't necessarily declared separately ....

^^^^
This is kind of scary!

Does anyone have any before & after pictures? Just curious what to look out for.
Scott

[MitchSteel]

Search for one of Bob Ridleys threads, he's a master......
I believe, if the watch was laser welded, and the job was done very well(Ridley,ABC), then what's the big deal.AS LONG AS ITS WELL DONE
There's a number of threads about all this " unpolished","unmonkeyed", " unmolested", lots of different opinions.

[GeoGio Greece]

Interesting ! If you "return" the material "moved" back to its original place, then no harm. But should always be mentioned in case of sale IMO.

If you add material, if it is of the same composition, you can see only from the temperature marks.

If these are removed with polishing, the only way to find out is via an industrial X-ray, which can show the "operation". There will ALWAYS be there marks of the different material texture.

Bob, if he so wishes and can spare the time, could show us once more some photos of the actual material added to some cases and then polished to perfection.

He could also kinly advice on the materials used specs. Are they the same composition steels ?

[GGGMT]

I'd pass. Too many options out there for purity. GGGMT

[withthesword]

i'm still confused. how is it better to use the existing moved material to fill up a dent rather than using a laser welder and replacing a chunk of case with something very nearly metallurgically identical? either way work has been done to the case.

[SLS]

Originally Posted by withthesword

i'm still confused. how is it better to use the existing moved material to fill up a dent rather than using a laser welder and replacing a chunk of case with something very nearly metallurgically identical? either way work has been done to the case.

From what I understand, since it is only a "dent", the material is only displaced, not removed. So heating up the area around the dent allows the displaced material to fall back in place, filling in the dent. Please correct me if I am wrong here.
Scott

[Darlinboy]

Some pics from a previous thread in the lind below. Like any technology, laser welding is neither good nor bad until applied.

Repairing damage to a valued watch - good.

Repairing damage to a watch in order to command a higher price and without disclosing - bad.

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...=Laser+welding

[goldfixer21]

In the majority of cases, most dings/scratches do not involve metal being removed, just displaced. If additional metal does need to be added, you need wire of the exact same type in order to get a quality repair. The stainless steel wire I order is not a perfect match for most watch cases . Because of this, there are slight color differences, and occasionally pitting. Even if the correct alloy wire is used to fill it, or simply using the existing metal to refill, the case still needs to be polished after the weld is complete. Argon gas is used to minimize oxidation, but it still leaves some, and the surface will not be perfectly flat either. I am currently out of town, but when I get back next week, I will post some pics of before and after repairs.

[greekbum]

I say 95% of the crisp vintage cases you see out there are not laser welded but expertly polished. Laser welding can help if there is a chip or a ding. If I had a choice I would prefer a crisp case versus a beat up one but everybody is different. Since I have been collecting for over 20 years this is nothing new to me. I have seen laser welded watches that have been ruined and destroyed beyond repair from inexperienced repair guys and i have seen watches repaired that were undetectable using even the best methods as the guys fixing them know there stuff. Now on to the question should it be disclosed 100% yes . Does it make a watch worth less? No might even add value as its in nicer shape if done correctly. What needs to be considered is unless you are the original owner and the watch never left your hand you dont know what has been done to the watch. you can use an educated guess and a professional opinion and be at an agreeable % as to what you assume to be correct and untouched but cannot be 100%. For those of us on the hunt daily there is the dial picasos to look out for, the laser welders, the franken and the fake to name a few.

[jedly1]

as i understand it the guys who do the good jobs use sacrificial period correct pieces of metal not modern wire, although i did here a rumour one guy had found some period correct wires.

for good pictures and threads on the work that is being done (at least what is being made public) Tz-uk has several threads on the work of rocco at watchworks in the uk ....the job of a laser welding repair ties very closely into the ability to polish afterwards and the skill level you have with that ...rocco was lucky enough to get possession of one of the bexley lapping machines when they moved and receive training on it and can polsih beautifully by all accounts ( i dont know him but i know a couple of people who swear by him)

http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...pics-on-page-3

if you can be bothered have a look over there on this thread and search several other under rocco, laser welding etc and you will see what is being put out at that single establishment in uk who have been getting going with it for 12mths .....then wonder how good is the stuff from the guys in Italy and HK who have been honing their skills at it for years, improving continually both with practice and technology ....

[jedly1]

this is some early works that were documented ....

[SLS]

Originally Posted by jedly1

this is some early works that were documented ....

Wow, pretty amazing! Thanks for sharing those pictures.
Scott

[Clay]

Amazing indeed!!!
It would depend entirely on how much damage there is to the case and if said damage effects the cases ability to be made water tight.
And I have no doubt that there are instances where a case is so bad that the Laser treatment would be in order.
I'm not sure however I would want to take a case on a 30 or 40 year old piece that has some "battle scars" and make it look new???
We would all like to find that NOS time capsule of a watch but I don't think I would want to try and "create it" so to speak.
I have two very different looking 666's. One looks like it was almost never worn and one looks like it has been through the wars.
I would never dream of trying to make the battle scared one look like the other. No way!!!
I certainly hope that the ever increasing ability to restore watch cases doesn't lead to the loss, over time, of the wonderful "character" that many of these vintage pieces have.

[Vincent65]

fantastic work