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-   -   Crown & Caliber Selling Rolex's with Aftermarket Parts (https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=670875)

jonathanwittlaw 23 April 2019 03:55 PM

Crown & Caliber Selling Rolex's with Aftermarket Parts
 
Hey guys,
has anyone noticed that this company site sells watches with fake aftermarket parts? like a fake custom rolex diamond bezel, or a fake aftermarket diamond dial? i thought it was illegal to do so.

https://www.crownandcaliber.com/coll...-20-rol-s9y7m6

https://www.crownandcaliber.com/prod...-20-rol-d8rq9n

https://www.crownandcaliber.com/prod...-10-rol-x14g70

i thought Rolex shut these places down. or maybe its not illegal anymore.

Steerpike999 23 April 2019 03:57 PM

The 3 you linked to are VERY UGLY watches. I would think Rolex would shut them down on purely bad taste reasons

blueface101 23 April 2019 04:00 PM

This company is paying for tons of FB ads I started noticing them nonstop this week

Notsoprobro 23 April 2019 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billcosby (Post 9568949)
This company is paying for tons of FB ads I started noticing them nonstop this week

You're noticing the ads because your cookies/cyber footprint is most likely making you a target. If you simply visit their site, they can target your device/IP and market to you nonstop. This is a powerful tool for companies who want to close a deal, especially when someone spent 15 minutes looking at a group of watches.

You don't even need to visit their site, if you have a trend of googling Rolex sellers, they can also target you through that as well.

Notsoprobro 23 April 2019 04:21 PM

I think they could be saved through the fact they are resellers and do not fit the aftermarket pieces themselves. I've purchased from C&C and have mostly good things to say about them regarding my purchase. They are extremely clear about any aftermarket additions however if you check the descriptions.

As for the legality issue... I have read that Rolex deems any aftermarket parts to be counterfeit thus voiding the warranty and making it illegal to sell. The real question is weather they will actually take action against C&C for selling modified Rolex. Another thing to note is how a lot of people do choose the aftermarket route on vintage watches as the parts are not readily available.

VintageVagabound 23 April 2019 11:22 PM

I’m not sure it makes it counterfeit especially if it’s advertised as having aftermarket parts. Rolex can decline to service but they can’t make it illegal to sell. That’s like Ford making it illegal to sell one of their cars if you change the wheels. You can still find the Bamford and such for sale everywhere.

77T 24 April 2019 01:13 AM

There is no law against a custom bezel with diamonds.

There is no law against adding diamonds to a genuine Rolex dial (or any brand for that matter).

But if you fabricate items and expropriate an owner’s trademarks and intellectual property, then you have committed a crime.

As for the items posted, C&C apparently is simply a reseller. As long as they cite custom or aftermarket parts I don’t see the problem.

Now if you try to have Rolex work on a watch with aftermarket parts, you will get declined until they can make it authentic at your expense.


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wesdaniel 24 April 2019 01:17 AM

One of their ads popped up on my Facebook a few months ago and I clicked on their link. I made a comment on the ad about how all of the watches were gaudy and hideous and none of them left the Rolex factory looking like they do now. They responded with a long diatribe about how some people prefer watches that have been embellished after manufacture and how it's a much more affordable way to buy watches. To each his own I guess. As long as they're not putting Rolex logos on anything that's not made by Rolex and they're only modifying existing pieces, I don't think it's breaking the law but am not smart enough to know. (shrug)

goldfixer21 24 April 2019 01:46 AM

If they state the diamond bezels are aftermarket, and that the dials have had diamonds added, they aren't doing anything deceptive at all. They aren't "fake"

jonathanwittlaw 24 April 2019 02:00 AM

Wow. Looks like Rolex deems them to be "counterfeit" as per the statement at the bottom of every Rolex invoice receipt. it states;
“The addition of non-genuine parts to any Rolex watch renders it counterfeit as defined by Federal Law. It is therefore unlawful to sell or offer such modified watch for sale. Rolex will not service watches altered with non-genuine parts or accessories. "

see https://www.rolexforums.com/archive/.../t-173168.html

Tools 24 April 2019 02:23 AM

There are probably as many Rolex watches for sale with aftermarket parts than there are otherwise..

Aftermarket and "fake" are not the same thing, regardless of what purists say. :cheers:

mrs_LA 24 April 2019 02:46 AM

What do you say about the many having their Rolex customized and "iced out" with diamonds and gemstones? The reality is that Rolex does not provide these from the factory, and those who desire to customize their watches with precious stones and diamonds can surely do so. That does NOT make it fake.

There is a shop in Beverly Hills that has been making custom jewelry.
Here is an "iced out" Sky-Dweller:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BmxaiGYn..._web_copy_link

This doesn't mean the watch is fake. It just means the watch has been modified.

wesdaniel 24 April 2019 03:06 AM

I wonder what federal law would prevent you from modifying something and then selling it, provided that your modification didn't present itself as being OEM?

Somebody mentioned cars and tires here previously. That's a good example. Another example would be cars and audio systems. If you change the audio system in your car for another audio system and then sell the car, I don't think you've broken any laws.....

I don't see how adding something to or swapping something could violate a federal law.

Tools 24 April 2019 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wesdaniel (Post 9570132)
. . .

I don't see how adding something to or swapping something could violate a federal law.

It only violates federal law if the part is counterfeit, not if it is aftermarket. Melrose was shut down by Rolex for using parts stamped with Rolex trademarks and calling them authentic.

There are many aftermarket parts suppliers that provide repair products to shops that do not have Rolex accounts. :cheers:

wesdaniel 24 April 2019 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tools (Post 9570209)
It only violates federal law if the part is counterfeit, not if it is aftermarket. Melrose was shut down by Rolex for using parts stamped with Rolex trademarks and calling them authentic.

There are many aftermarket parts suppliers that provide repair products to shops that do not have Rolex accounts. :cheers:

Thanks. That's how I would interpret what would be legal and it would make sense. The letter quoted above, though, says:

“The addition of non-genuine parts to any Rolex watch renders it counterfeit as defined by Federal Law. It is therefore unlawful to sell or offer such modified watch for sale."

Technically, I would think that anything that is added would be "non-genuine," so, even a generic leather strap not stamped Rolex wouldn't be "genuine." Either Rolex is really reaching here or they're just stating their position poorly IMO.

Burlington 24 April 2019 04:28 AM

So adding a NATO makes a Rolex counterfeit by that definition. Not sure that would hold much water in court

Tools 24 April 2019 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wesdaniel (Post 9570298)
Thanks. That's how I would interpret what would be legal and it would make sense. The letter quoted above, though, says:

“The addition of non-genuine parts to any Rolex watch renders it counterfeit as defined by Federal Law. It is therefore unlawful to sell or offer such modified watch for sale."
. . .

They're playing word-games. It is likely that they interpret "non-genuine" to mean those parts that are made to look genuine (counterfeit), but are intended to deceive a buyer. Aftermarket parts makers make no such claim.

springer 24 April 2019 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanwittlaw (Post 9568942)
Hey guys,
has anyone noticed that this company site sells watches with fake aftermarket parts? like a fake custom rolex diamond bezel, or a fake aftermarket diamond dial? i thought it was illegal to do so.

https://www.crownandcaliber.com/coll...-20-rol-s9y7m6

https://www.crownandcaliber.com/prod...-20-rol-d8rq9n

https://www.crownandcaliber.com/prod...-10-rol-x14g70

i thought Rolex shut these places down. or maybe its not illegal anymore.

Nothing illegal at all about adding diamonds to a dial. I would guess that most diamond dials found on Rolex watches - especially the ladies models - have aftermarket diamonds added to genuine dials or complete aftermarket diamond dials.

Groovy 24 April 2019 11:54 AM

Good to know. Thanks!


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freefly 24 April 2019 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfixer21 (Post 9569900)
If they state the diamond bezels are aftermarket, and that the dials have had diamonds added, they aren't doing anything deceptive at all. They aren't "fake"

True, if that is actually the case. However, the dials on the watches in the OP's first 2 links are 100% counterfeit (and NOT genuine dials with diamonds added).
Calling a counterfeit dial "aftermarket" doesn't make it any less counterfeit. :cheers:

Burlington 25 April 2019 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freefly (Post 9571621)
True, if that is actually the case. However, the dials on the watches in the OP's first 2 links are 100% counterfeit (and NOT genuine dials with diamonds added).

Calling a counterfeit dial "aftermarket" doesn't make it any less counterfeit. :cheers:



If the brand name or logo has been added by someone other than the trademark owner, then yes it’s not allowed.

mjacks 26 April 2019 01:03 AM

Hey all! Crown & Caliber employee here—just want to clarify a few things. Those watches were sold quite some time ago. In the watch details, it states that the additions to the watch are aftermarket. We verify the authenticity of the stones and confirm if they are aftermarket or from the manufacturer. We have full-time watchmakers on staff with more than 20 years of experience in authenticating and servicing luxury watches who verify the authenticity of every watch we receive.

You can always check our watch details on our listings or be in touch with our Client Services team should you have questions about a watch we have listed.

But just to be blunt: we do not accept, nor do we sell fakes of any kind. The growth we've experienced as a company, the partnerships we've secured with established retailers and brands (Jared, Birks, etc.), the press we receive from top publications like Business Insider, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, etc.—none of it would exist if there was even a suspicion of us selling fakes.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask.

jonathanwittlaw 29 April 2019 01:06 PM

Seems confusing but there are plenty of lawsuits out there that explain why its considered counterfeit when you sell a Rolex that has a custom part or is altered or modified with non-genuine parts. For example, in the lawsuit against Melrose Jewelers, Rolex sued them for Trademark infringement and won an $8.5 million judgment and shut them down.

Read it here. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal...00/538474/105/

extract:
"Melrose offers for sale and sells, among other items, altered Rolex watches that bear one or more of the Rolex Registered Trademarks. Melrose s altered Rolex watches contain one or more non-genuine components (i.e. components not manufactured by Rolex, including, for example, non-genuine bezels, bracelets, and/or dials.. Melrose s altered Rolex watches have non-genuine bracelets that bear counterfeit copies of Rolex s CROWN DESIGN ( and/or ROLEX marks."

A Rolex with a non-genuine or altered part is considered ( the watch ) counterfeit - it is a fake. Even if its been disclosed.

Abdullah71601 29 April 2019 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanwittlaw (Post 9586528)
Seems confusing but there are plenty of lawsuits out there that explain why its considered counterfeit when you sell a Rolex that has a custom part or is altered or modified with non-genuine parts. For example, in the lawsuit against Melrose Jewelers, Rolex sued them for Trademark infringement and won an $8.5 million judgment and shut them down.

Read it here. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal...00/538474/105/

extract:
"Melrose offers for sale and sells, among other items, altered Rolex watches that bear one or more of the Rolex Registered Trademarks. Melrose s altered Rolex watches contain one or more non-genuine components (i.e. components not manufactured by Rolex, including, for example, non-genuine bezels, bracelets, and/or dials.. Melrose s altered Rolex watches have non-genuine bracelets that bear counterfeit copies of Rolex s CROWN DESIGN ( and/or ROLEX marks."

A Rolex with a non-genuine or altered part is considered ( the watch ) counterfeit - it is a fake. Even if its been disclosed.

If the non-genuine part has a Rolex registered trademark it is counterfeit (pretty sure everyone already knew that). Does that apply to parts not marked Rolex?

VintageVagabound 29 April 2019 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathanwittlaw (Post 9586528)
Seems confusing but there are plenty of lawsuits out there that explain why its considered counterfeit when you sell a Rolex that has a custom part or is altered or modified with non-genuine parts. For example, in the lawsuit against Melrose Jewelers, Rolex sued them for Trademark infringement and won an $8.5 million judgment and shut them down.

Read it here. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal...00/538474/105/

extract:
"Melrose offers for sale and sells, among other items, altered Rolex watches that bear one or more of the Rolex Registered Trademarks. Melrose s altered Rolex watches contain one or more non-genuine components (i.e. components not manufactured by Rolex, including, for example, non-genuine bezels, bracelets, and/or dials.. Melrose s altered Rolex watches have non-genuine bracelets that bear counterfeit copies of Rolex s CROWN DESIGN ( and/or ROLEX marks."

A Rolex with a non-genuine or altered part is considered ( the watch ) counterfeit - it is a fake. Even if its been disclosed.

I read the civil case you cited and it says:

“Melrose’s altered Rolex watches have non-genuine bracelets that
bear counterfeit copies of Rolex’s CROWN DESIGN ( ) and/or ROLEX marks.
12. Melrose’s altered Rolex watches include refinished dials (some with diamonds added) from which one or more of Rolex’s Registered Trademarks have been removed and reapplied.
13. Melrose’s altered Rolex watches include non-genuine bezels (some with diamonds added). The bezel of the watch is designed to create a sealed pressure-proof environment for the watch movement. If the bezel is not of the precise measurement and does not fit properly, outside elements such as water, moisture, and dust can penetrate the watch case and damage the movement. Rolex examined altered Rolex watches purchased from Melrose and determined that the non-genuine bezels on the watches had insufficient fittings and did not protect against the penetration of moisture into the watch movement.
14. Melrose’s unauthorized use of marks identical to or substantially indistinguishable from one or more of the Rolex Registered Trademarks on altered Rolex watches and in connection with the marketing and sale of altered Rolex watches is likely to cause confusion, mistake, or deception among consumers and the public. Such unauthorized use is likely to cause consumers and the public to mistakenly believe that Melrose’s altered Rolex watches are genuine Rolex watches or are authorized, sponsored, or approved by Rolex, when, in fact, they are not.”

The distinction here was that buyers thought they were buying a Rolex product when in fact they were not. If I paint my explorer with red hobby paint there is no law that forbids me from doing that with my own property. Rolex may decline to service it and if I resell it as a factory original I would have committed the same violation as Melrose. Otherwise I can sell it as a personally hobby painted watch and they would never have a case

drtii 12 May 2019 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notsoprobro (Post 9568972)
You're noticing the ads because your cookies/cyber footprint is most likely making you a target. If you simply visit their site, they can target your device/IP and market to you nonstop. This is a powerful tool for companies who want to close a deal, especially when someone spent 15 minutes looking at a group of watches.

You don't even need to visit their site, if you have a trend of googling Rolex sellers, they can also target you through that as well.

I'm actually a marketer that does this and remarketing/retargeting doesn't quite work like you're suggesting.

1.) Platforms (Facebook, Google, .etc) aren't the one's retargeting, it's the individual advertisers, i.e. Zappos, Amazon.

2.) In order to remarket to a user you have 2 options.

- a.) The user has visited some portion of a page you control with a corresponding platform pixel. This means it can be a landing page or your own website and if you're using Google then it must have a google remarketing pixel. Same with Facebook, the page must have a remarketing pixel to use it.

In this instance the pixel fires a cookie and it stays on your computer for a very long time. You can clear your cookies, though.

-b.) You can target people through their email address. Sadly, this is true. If I have your email address I can create a custom audience on Facebook and retarget you. On Google I would be able to retarget your when you search only, but it can be for unrelated terms.

In this instance you either signed up for something or your email was found and added to a list. The last example being extremely unprofessional.

--

How Advertisers Use Remarketing

If I was to run an ecommerce website selling watches, as long as I had a pixel on every page, I could set up a campaign on Google to show you the exact product you were just looking at...on every website you visit with Google Ads installed.

On Facebook it's only on the FB platform (FB/IG), but on Google it extends to millions of websites.

It's a very powerful tool for getting buyers back in the sales funnel, and you have so many different ways to filter a person.

1.) Time on site: Are they serious? Show them ads!

2.) Abandoned Cart: Let's show them a discount and get them back!

3.) Purchase: I need them to make another purchase!

--

Without getting too in-depth you can see why advertisers use remarketing and how it's associated to you specifically.

On both Facebook and Google ads you only have to report the ad to never see it again. Click the report link on FB or the X on Google Ads and explain why you don't like it. This kind of feedback works incredibly quickly, not only for you but for everyone. So don't think reporting ads doesn't matter because it does. If only 5 people reported an ad it could easily get shut down, sometimes even less.

If multiple ads from the same advertisers continually get shut down due to user reporting/SPAM the advertiser can lose their account within days of the 2nd or 3rd infraction.

Hope it helps.

Acett 29 May 2019 02:54 AM

I bought a Turnograph from Crown and Caliber, they were unaware it had a white gold bezel. It appeared to me to have an after market bracelet, and not a very good one. It had a plastic security seal that if removed caused a high restocking fee. I returned it .

Like everything , caveat emptor.


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