Car Insurance - Something I don't understand.

[Spectre38]

Let me start off by stating this is not meant in anyway to become political... just something I don't understand.

While speaking with a young intern at work, the subject of car insurance was brought up by a third person. He had stated that his son couldn't afford insurance due to his age and gender. The young intern then commented that his insurance dropped significantly once he had his gender changed on his license, from male to nonbinary.

He went on to state that there are a lot of discounts available for nonbinary, if you just ask. According to the intern, he had received discounts at furniture stores, restaurants, clothing stores and more... just for inquiring whether or not they offer a discount. We were skeptical but several days later he brought in a receipt for his dining set that had a " Nonbinary discount -15% " notation on the carbon copy that he received, as well as his insurance statement showing the discount.

I was talking to my 23 year old son about this when he was lamenting about the cost of everything. My son stopped by last night and said he hoped I wouldn't think poorly of him, but he had checked into the insurance thing and sure enough, he could get a discount if his license indicated nonbinary.
He had gone down to the DMV and for $26, had the gender changed from male.

The insurance discount he received was NOT insignificant... his rate went from $170/month to $82/month. His driving record had not changed, his vehicle had not changed, his age had not changed... yet his insurance decreased by 52%.

This makes no sense to me... I don't understand.

[GoingPlaces]

I don't understand either....the non-binary piece. Interesting nonetheless.

Young men higher risk pool. Anything else is probably just par. I doubt there is a person actually coming up with the rates, just plug in the info and the rate is generated.

[Ballzzz]

Sad

[superdog]

no sense at all.

[HHIslander]

Wow. That's pretty much all I can say without getting into trouble here.

Glad to hear your son is doing well. Your post about him awhile back is my favorite post here of all time.

[Ferdelious]

Don't think that is even possible in FL. And it does not make sense at all.

[1st amg]

Incredible.

[Mendota]

Insurance agent here. The only thing I can speculate is that by changing his rating from male to non-binary, this removes the risk that is associated with young male drivers. Since the word "male" has been eliminated from the risk assessment, he/they is/are receiving the premium that a young female driver would receive since very limited data is available for the new non-binary driver. So in essence, the underwriters are likely classifying non-binary and female as the same from a risk standpoint. Females are statistically less likely to speed, get into accidents, and get tickets.

This will all change as more and more statistical data becomes available for non-binary drivers. The actuaries are working overtime to monitor and track all of this data and as more and more of it is available, then the non-binary drivers will receive their own true risk category. If non-binary drivers start getting into more frequent crashes and get speeding tickets, then their risk would increase. Premiums are simply a function of risk.

Again, I don't know for sure, as I haven't talked to any of my underwriters about it, but that's usually how this stuff works. It's all based on statistical data. He/they is/are able to take advantage of a loophole in the system by being able to receive a reduced risk rating (right now) while the data is still very limited.

[Spectre38]

Originally Posted by Mendota

Insurance agent here. The only thing I can speculate is that by changing his rating from male to non-binary, this removes the risk that is associated with young male drivers. Since the word "male" has been eliminated from the risk assessment, he/they is/are receiving the premium that a young female driver would receive since very limited data is available for the new non-binary driver. So in essence, the underwriters are likely classifying non-binary and female as the same from a risk standpoint. Females are statistically less likely to speed, get into accidents, and get tickets.

Mendota,
Thank you for your input. I understand what you are saying but I still don't get why, with an existing driving record... an existing history, it would change the rates? So, I have a clean driving record... not even a ticket since 1987 when I was young and stupid... so if I changed my gender ( on paper ) would it lower my rates?

[Aquaholic_user]

My AD considers me nonbinary, only way to get a discount these days.

Sent from my balloon knot

[albertf]

Originally Posted by Spectre38

Mendota,
Thank you for your input. I understand what you are saying but I still don't get why, with an existing driving record... an existing history, it would change the rates? So, I have a clean driving record... not even a ticket since 1987 when I was young and stupid... so if I changed my gender ( on paper ) would it lower my rates?

I'm assuming this exploit will get addressed pretty quickly once this loophole becomes more well known.

I doubt current insurance software can account for gender transitions. It's only taking data and applying the appropriate rate.

example: What's the rate for a male with 2 violations every 5 years v. the rate for a female with 2 violations every 5 years. The software isn't designed to recognize that it could be the same person.

[Al1969]

Ridiculous.

[Spectre38]

Let me throw this in... I don't understand the discounts at stores and restaurants either... makes absolutely zero sense to me. None.

[Mendota]

Originally Posted by albertf

I'm assuming this exploit will get addressed pretty quickly once this loophole becomes more well known.

I doubt current insurance software can account for gender transitions. It's only taking data and applying the appropriate rate.

example: What's the rate for a male with 2 violations every 5 years v. the rate for a female with 2 violations every 5 years. The software isn't designed to recognize that it could be the same person.

I'm sure you are 100% on point since it's such a new development. I'm guessing the actuaries and underwriters are working on this daily. There are decades upon decades of actuarial data for both male and female drivers, but likely only a year or two of data for a specific non-binary category.

I'm really curious now, so I'm going to reach out to some of my carriers and see what I can find out.

Someone asked if all things are equal, how can it make a difference? Well, all things aren't equal in this case. There are hundreds of data points that are used by underwriters to determine a rating. In this particular case, the rest of the variables are the same but the gender is changing. Gender is one of the largest rating factors when combined with a young age.

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[airchitect]

I’m still waiting for a class action by men against insurance companies for discriminating based upon sex. Lord knows if it went the other way there would’ve already been 500 lawsuits, a march, ribbons, Oprah speeches, and the whole bit……


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KathleenL]

Originally Posted by Spectre38

Mendota,
Thank you for your input. I understand what you are saying but I still don't get why, with an existing driving record... an existing history, it would change the rates? So, I have a clean driving record... not even a ticket since 1987 when I was young and stupid... so if I changed my gender ( on paper ) would it lower my rates?

At what age do the insurance companies reassess the "age penalty" for male drivers? Being female and childless, I've never had to think about it, but I've sort of always thought it was 25 because car rental companies won't (at least, they didn't used to) rent to male drivers under 25.

And since you have a 23-year-old child, I don't think you're in the right age bracket for getting a lower premium if you changed your gender on your license or other paperwork.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by Spectre38

Let me throw this in... I don't understand the discounts at stores and restaurants either... makes absolutely zero sense to me. None.

I think Mendota explained the insurance issue well. It's a numbers game for them based on decades of actuarial data. At some point, as the risks for the nonbinary group become more clear or shift, even if it contains actual nonbinary people and men/women who choose to be recognized as nonbinary only on their licensure, the rates will adjust accordingly.

Regarding stores and restaurants, I look at it in a similar vein to places that have discounts for first responders, veterans, healthcare workers, etc. In some way or another this works out favorably for the bottom line of the business. Maybe it garners more/better customers. Maybe it makes employees more satisfied to work for these places of business, increasing productivity. In the end it usually comes down to dollars and cents.

[Tri-Tip]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

I think Mendota explained the insurance issue well. It's a numbers game for them based on decades of actuarial data. At some point, as the risks for the nonbinary group become more clear or shift, even if it contains actual nonbinary people and men/women who choose to be recognized as nonbinary only on their licensure, the rates will adjust accordingly.

Regarding stores and restaurants, I look at it in a similar vein to places that have discounts for first responders, veterans, healthcare workers, etc. In some way or another this works out favorably for the bottom line of the business. Maybe it garners more/better customers. Maybe it makes employees more satisfied to work for these places of business, increasing productivity. In the end it usually comes down to dollars and cents.

It ALWAYS comes down to dollars and cents!!!

[SWS65SM]

Originally Posted by Spectre38

Let me throw this in... I don't understand the discounts at stores and restaurants either... makes absolutely zero sense to me. None.

This read opened my eyes today...... And are the furniture stores and restaurants offering up these specific discounts national chains, or these are actually just locally operated in your neighborhood (wonder if you live in a progressive city)?

[lear60man]

Some things are worth paying for.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

I think Mendota explained the insurance issue well. It's a numbers game for them based on decades of actuarial data. At some point, as the risks for the nonbinary group become more clear or shift, even if it contains actual nonbinary people and men/women who choose to be recognized as nonbinary only on their licensure, the rates will adjust accordingly.

Regarding stores and restaurants, I look at it in a similar vein to places that have discounts for first responders, veterans, healthcare workers, etc. In some way or another this works out favorably for the bottom line of the business. Maybe it garners more/better customers. Maybe it makes employees more satisfied to work for these places of business, increasing productivity. In the end it usually comes down to dollars and cents.

Problem is people are trying to associate something some believe to be immoral with something that is based purely on a statistical formula. Many different groups besides sex, age, even professions tend to get incentives and none of this has anything to do with morality or what others feel.

As you mentioned as enough data becomes available or if any group becomes more risky then the rates will increase.

Regardless I doubt very much that someone will actually change their sexual preference or even their driving habits due to a change on their drivers license. So I don't see any reason to get ones panties in a bunch.

[Jocke]

I heard Caitlyn Jenner got more expensive insurance after her change.

[Speedbird-1]

Is female (car) insurance, more, or less expensive than, non-binary?

[330ci]

Originally Posted by airchitect

I’m still waiting for a class action by men against insurance companies for discriminating based upon sex. Lord knows if it went the other way there would’ve already been 500 lawsuits, a march, ribbons, Oprah speeches, and the whole bit……


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

the more likely scenario is these insurance companies getting sued to shreds when they figure out how to get rid of this loophole by a bunch of angry thems

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by dddrees

Problem is people are trying to associate something some believe to be immoral with something that is based purely on a statistical formula. Many different groups besides sex, age, even professions tend to get incentives and none of this has anything to do with morality or what others feel.

As you mentioned as enough data becomes available or if any group becomes more risky then the rates will increase.

Regardless I doubt very much that someone will actually change their sexual preference or even their driving habits due to a change on their drivers license. So I don't see any reason to get ones panties in a bunch.

Well said Dan as usual

[330ci]

Originally Posted by dddrees

Problem is people are trying to associate something some believe to be immoral

It has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with equality.
I'm just a bitter middle class white male in the eyes of society.so If I'm going to be forced to respect "non binary" as a form of gender identity. I expect them to drop the double standards. They can have their equality, but they need to cut the crap that they're such a marginalized class. It's like we declassified gender dysphoria to allow people to believe they aren't mentally ill; then encourage others to mimick the behavior. Then add in social discounts. Then wonder why insanity ensues.

When someone tells me they identify as "non binary" what i hear is "I'm mentally ill and you need to adjust your language to suit my beliefs". I'm not going to sacrifice my reality to create a more comfortable one for people I find delusional. It has absolutely nothing to do with morals whatsoever.

just because I dress up as batman and identify as him, doesn't make me a super hero. They can identify however they want, and I will classify them however I see fit.
The problem isn't how they identify, its how the demand others respect their identity; and that's ludicrous.

This thread shows what a mockery it all is, "sorry dad, I'm non binary now to save $90/month on car insurance"
I don't blame the kid one bit, seems like a quick way to save some cash. But he's now a statistic for people who allegedly are non binary if there is such a thing. So now the non binarys are actually getting shafted by people using their identity to obtain discounts and mess up their analytics in the future.
Poetic justice from where I'm sitting.

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by 330ci

It has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with equality.
I'm just a bitter middle class white male in the eyes of society.so If I'm going to be forced to respect "non binary" as a form of gender identity. I expect them to drop the double standards. They can have their equality, but they need to cut the crap that they're such a marginalized class. It's like we declassified gender dysphoria to allow people to believe they aren't mentally ill; then encourage others to mimick the behavior. Then add in social discounts. Then wonder why insanity ensues.

When someone tells me they identify as "non binary" what i hear is "I'm mentally ill and you need to adjust your language to suit my beliefs". I'm not going to sacrifice my reality to create a more comfortable one for people I find delusional. It has absolutely nothing to do with morals whatsoever.

just because I dress up as batman and identify as him, doesn't make me a super hero. They can identify however they want, and I will classify them however I see fit.
The problem isn't how they identify, its how the demand others respect their identity; and that's ludicrous.

/\

This

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by airchitect

Lord knows if it went the other way there would’ve already been 500 lawsuits, a march, ribbons, Oprah speeches, and the whole bit……

/\

Ditto

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by 330ci

It has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with equality.
I'm just a bitter middle class white male in the eyes of society.so If I'm going to be forced to respect "non binary" as a form of gender identity. I expect them to drop the double standards. They can have their equality, but they need to cut the crap that they're such a marginalized class. It's like we declassified gender dysphoria to allow people to believe they aren't mentally ill; then encourage others to mimick the behavior. Then add in social discounts. Then wonder why insanity ensues.

When someone tells me they identify as "non binary" what i hear is "I'm mentally ill and you need to adjust your language to suit my beliefs". I'm not going to sacrifice my reality to create a more comfortable one for people I find delusional. It has absolutely nothing to do with morals whatsoever.

just because I dress up as batman and identify as him, doesn't make me a super hero. They can identify however they want, and I will classify them however I see fit.
The problem isn't how they identify, its how the demand others respect their identity; and that's ludicrous.

This thread shows what a mockery it all is, "sorry dad, I'm non binary now to save $90/month on car insurance"
I don't blame the kid one bit, seems like a quick way to save some cash. But he's now a statistic for people who allegedly are non binary if there is such a thing. So now the non binarys are actually getting shafted by people using their identity to obtain discounts and mess up their analytics in the future.
Poetic justice from where I'm sitting.

The tone of your post does come off as "bitter middle class white male" though I'm not sure if that was your intention. Regarding car insurance it sounds like nonbinary individuals are being treated completely fairly. If their risk class is the same as that of female drivers, they should pay the same rates. It sucks as rates apply to populations, not individual characteristics, and I guess some folks are sensitive about this. If anything it's a bit of a cheat to misrepresent oneself to get a rate reduction. But as we can't choose our gender and we are just born that way, it will feel unfair to pay more for insurance just because others in one's demographic tend to be crappier drivers.

It does bring up an interesting conundrum though. I wonder if there is a human height range where one is a safer driver. If you're only 5' tall are you a better driver or a worse driver than a 6' tall person, on average? What about one's fitness level, or as drivers age? If there is a difference, is it legal for insurance companies to alter rates based on any trait that a person can't change?

[330ci]

[QUOTE=uscmatt99;12141276]The tone of your post does come off as "bitter middle class white male" though I'm not sure if that was your intention. Regarding car insurance it sounds like nonbinary individuals are being treated completely fairly. If their risk class is the same as that of female drivers, they should pay the same rates. If anything it's a bit of a cheat to misrepresent oneself to get a rate reduction. /QUOTE]

I think you failed to grasp most if not all of the key points in my post as you were too focused on what a bitter middle class white male i am based on my response(which is absolutely hilarious that someone's economic status, race and gender could be extrapolated based off a message, how dare you assume any of that and try to defend the non binarys in the process considering how contrary that is to their core values and almost the gist of my post entirely)
*and before quoting post above, look at the thread were in, I might have previously identified as a middle class white male in this thread, but I am now a non binary white*
I even addressed how poetic i find it that people are cheating discounts and ruining future analytics by noticing price discrepancies.

But yeah... I set the tone of my post to impose self reflection on the reader. I sense it has failed
The way I understand it non binary isn't so much about not being a male or female, its about understanding the fluidity of your gender dynamics. Some days you feel more feminine, some days more masculine, so instead of defining yourself based on the assigned birth gender, you base it off your feelings at any given point in time. So you can identify as either or neither.

Stuff like this fascinates me. When it comes to animalistic behavior and seeing how humans have evolved from solving disagreements throughout time. This issue seems to be quite pivotal in social devolelopment. Especially within our current democracy. Imposing beliefs on others is totalitarian. Getting rid of social groups is a precursor to falls of civilization. Theres a lot more riding on this issue than some discounts on insurance.