Prayers for Miami

[2loaded]

Prayers sent. Awful.

[mannyv11]

Originally Posted by scarlet knight

The neighborhood is dotted with numerous high rise buildings similar to the one that collapsed. They are going to have to identify the cause of the collapse, so that the neighboring buildings are not subject to the same condition(s).

I think they are going to have to inspect all buildings in that area that were built during the same time frame and do some real engineering reviews on the buildings.

Unfortunately one way or the other nature always wins and humans can only do so much to hold back the natural forces. If water tables truly are rising and creating issues in the soil around the Miami beach area (which I will not get into that debate since it will be a hot topic) I think a lot of buildings are going to be in grave danger over the next years and decades.

I truly hope they find a majority of the missing people and they are ok it is an absolute terrible tragedy.

[Martin]

Not good, My prayers are with them

[Cheng]

Terrible for anyone to experience, just sad.

[Cazador60]

Prayers sent for the departed and for the families.

[77T]

Originally Posted by scarlet knight

Hope for some miracles.

I do - but authorities just increased the count of unaccounted souls to 159…

Praying for those as well as the families and safety of the on-site searchers.


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[EEpro]

https://dnyuz.com/2021/06/26/enginee...condo-complex/

Awful looking structure pics. I'm shocked people are still living in the north tower.

[One_Ping_Only]

My prayers are for those departed and those here to miss them.

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[904VT]

Originally Posted by turkeysub93

Terrible. Cheap construction and labor to blame.

Originally Posted by EEpro

Hopefully this kicks off some serious engineering structural analysis of these buildings.

Imagine the 100 year old diamond district buildings in NYC where every floor has 4,000 pound ISM vaults. Sht is scary.

What's scary here is these buildings are supposed to be or rather need to be hurricane "proof" or resistant.

So sad.

[JasoninDenver]

My feeling is that the recommended repairs became a point of contention in the HOA meetings. Saw an interview with the HOA Board attorney this afternoon and they are circling the wagons and pointing fingers at the engineer who wrote the report saying he was not forceful enough, even though he said the repairs needed to be started immediately.

[airchitect]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

My feeling is that the recommended repairs became a point of contention in the HOA meetings. Saw an interview with the HOA Board attorney this afternoon and they are circling the wagons and pointing fingers at the engineer who wrote the report saying he was not forceful enough, even though he said the repairs needed to be started immediately.

Yeah the consulting engineer did his job, but you can’t help stupid….or cheap. People like to pinch pennies until after sh1t hits the fan and then wish they’d have done things right. The members of the HOA should be held accountable in criminal court for this. As for the engineers who designed a slab under the pool deck without a slope, they’re responsibilities probably ended long ago.


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[EEpro]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

My feeling is that the recommended repairs became a point of contention in the HOA meetings. Saw an interview with the HOA Board attorney this afternoon and they are circling the wagons and pointing fingers at the engineer who wrote the report saying he was not forceful enough, even though he said the repairs needed to be started immediately.

Translation: we are adult-sized children in a box-checking bureaucracy. You need to be very stern with us or we will just look at our phones until the meeting is over.

[1st amg]

This is a problem with condominium ownership and their condo board directors and members. They have a reserve fund that all condo owners pay and inject for repairs and maintenance through their condo fees. Then when they have these "special assessments" the costs are then passed down to the condo owners. In this case, the amounts for this monstrous repair was between 80,000 and 200,000 per condo unit. Imagine as a condo director notifying and demanding this type of money from the condo owners to pay up. Ouch. That is a lot of money, money that many owners probably do not have, then they have to deal with the questions and demands from condo owners that they want reassessment after reassessment to verify this. No wonder it never got repaired since the report 2018. This is going to be tied up in litigation for years and years. Poor innocent people

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

This is a problem with condominium ownership and their condo board directors and members. They have a reserve fund that all condo owners pay and inject for repairs and maintenance through their condo fees. Then when they have these "special assessments" the costs are then passed down to the condo owners. In this case, the amounts for this monstrous repair was between 80,000 and 200,000 per condo unit. Imagine as a condo director notifying and demanding this type of money from the condo owners to pay up. Ouch. That is a lot of money, money that many owners probably do not have, then they have to deal with the questions and demands from condo owners that they want reassessment after reassessment to verify this. No wonder it never got repaired since the report 2018. This is going to be tied up in litigation for years and years. Poor innocent people

Really incredible when you think about it.

[Dr.Brian]

Originally Posted by EEpro

https://dnyuz.com/2021/06/26/enginee...condo-complex/

Awful looking structure pics. I'm shocked people are still living in the north tower.

That’s the problem with a HOA board and an old building/complex. Nobody wants a $200,000 bill, but that’s the cost of your oceanfront living in a 40 year old building. Things need to be repaired, and some things are really expensive. When I lived in an HOA in CA, we had a coup and deposed the ridiculous board wasting money on useless projects and bad ideas. We did a 180, replaced the manager as well. Things cost what they cost and if owners can’t afford it, that is not the board or other resident’s problem. We were fortunate in that from the start that HOA was putting millions aside for maintenance and replacement of HOA owned structures, etc based on their expected lifetime and replacement cost. Of course when we raised the dues by 10% to keep our target of 90% funding and increased costs, after several years of no increases many complained and wanted us to cut funding. So dumb. Kick the can down the road to the next owner and hopefully you’re gone before the special assessments come due.
That would be the first thing I would be looking at from the HOA. What do the dues cover, what does the HOA maintain, and what money is put aside for the replacement and maintenance of those assets? When we were funding at 90% the management company said that was very high and many places weren’t even at 50. If the HOA puts its head in the sand and doesn’t raise the dues to cover expected expenses, the owners better be putting money aside for assessments. Or better yet, live somewhere else with a better board and financial planing.

[ddayan]

Thoughts and prayers for everyone involved. I have cousins who know those who are still not found, horrid situation all around.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Dr.Brian

Or better yet, live somewhere else with a better board and financial planing.

Amen to that idea.

I got out of a bad HOA with our mountain condo after sitting on the board and seeing just how dysfunctional people were.

We had one building that had some potential structural issues. They had existed for over 30 years and two structural engineers had said it was not a problem but should be monitored, which had been done for the 30 year period with no movement.

Our HOA president at the time wisely decided we should get a new revised engineer opinion to cover the HOA’s butt. Well, this stirred up a hornet’s nest with the building owners. We soon started getting letters from an attorney hired by the building owners threatening to sue us as a Board and also individually if we did anything at all.

Eventually, we had to get ALL of the affected building owners to sign a release of liability and specifically acknowledge the potential risks and that they would be solely responsible for all damages and claims if no further action was taken. Basically, they became their own Board for their building.

The level of vitriol and accusations soured me and several other board members who wanted to maintain the property adequately. Unfortunately, the vast majority of owners simply wanted the cheapest HOA dues possible no matter the effect upon the property. After a couple do nothing advocates got elected to the Board, i decided it was time to get out.

Five years later, the property looks like a slum. Sadly property values in this development have been adversely affected by this inaction. Stupid is as stupid does.

[Fleetlord]

Unfortunately this was bound to happen and may very well happen again as the buildings thrown up during the early days of the Miami/Dade building boom (and other sections of the Florida east coast) begin to age and succumb to relentless saltwater exposure.

Salt will always win. It will beat down all countermeasures thrown up against it over time. It is inevitable. Fighting against it is exhausting and expensive, especially in large, multi-family buildings.

As the report mentions, the repairs to this building would have cost a fortune. That lead to indecision and bickering. Mix some of the usual Miami/Dade municipal level incompetence and shenanigans and the result is a complete disaster. Awful tragedy.

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

Unfortunately this was bound to happen and may very well happen again as the buildings thrown up during the early days of the Miami/Dade building boom (and other sections of the Florida east coast) begin to age and succumb to relentless saltwater exposure.

Salt will always win. It will beat down all countermeasures thrown up against it over time. It is inevitable. Fighting against it is exhausting and expensive, especially in large, multi-family buildings.

As the report mentions, the repairs to this building would have cost a fortune. That lead to indecision and bickering. Mix some of the usual Miami/Dade municipal level incompetence and shenanigans and the result is a complete disaster. Awful tragedy.

To my understanding, and there are several different versions out there, there was an original bid of 9 million or so but the owners sat on it for some years and it swelled to 15+million. About 100K per unit owner.

As for the salt, correct it's corrosive period, not much you can do other than using better materials - if possible - on new construction going forward. I have to agree in that there are other buildings that are possibly in similar condition. Scary.

What will happen to property values at this point? Will the beach condo market take a bath? Is the place sinking? What does the future hold?

Horrible to imagine what was going through people minds as this was happening to them.

[watchtabs]

Originally Posted by GoingPlaces

To my understanding, and there are several different versions out there, there was an original bid of 9 million or so but the owners sat on it for some years and it swelled to 15+million. About 100K per unit owner.

As for the salt, correct it's corrosive period, not much you can do other than using better materials - if possible - on new construction going forward. I have to agree in that there are other buildings that are possibly in similar condition. Scary.

What will happen to property values at this point? Will the beach condo market take a bath? Is the place sinking? What does the future hold?

Horrible to imagine what was going through people minds as this was happening to them.

Structural engineers are gonna be buying all the stock off from David and Thanh (Takuya), with all the money they will be rolling on.

I imagine in the short term all the sellers will have the equivalent of vaccination cards.. they will append a “engineering inspection” saying everything is fine. But just like masks and vax cards… they will go back to normal in a few years…

But I’ll tell you, my plans of buying a beach front apartment in one of the older buildings (I don’t like the new towers), is out the door. Not gonna deal with that, and will think instead of a canal summer home somewhere else.


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[Fleetlord]

East coast of Florida is considered the most corrosive coastal area in the US….maybe the world.

NASA spends a fortune and has a lab dedicated to managing it with material science and various coatings, but they still lose inevitably.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy...corrosion.html

A lot of these coastal residential buildings are just wrecked and will need extensive repair or will be condemned.

Miami reacted in epic fashion regarding building codes in response to Hurricane Andrew and potential wind load damage. It’s by far the strictest in the country….nit picked down to the screw. Meanwhile the buildings beachside are rotting down to the core and the municipalities either don’t bother, don’t know what to check or ignore it. That will change now.

[77T]

I suppose we will hear many versions of “facts” from the various responsible organizations and parties who will study and dissect this tragedy over the coming years. Possibly “alternative facts” as well due to each party’s position in the past, and their current situation.

I’m from Miami originally; ironically born on Miami Beach in a hospital that’s gone now but was about 10 miles South of Surfside. It isn’t directly relevant to what happened, but I do wonder at a few things I recall from my time on this planet.

First, the building that collapsed has a sister one just two buildings North in the town of Surfside. Same developer, identical design, same builder and material suppliers - but different precise location (more on that later) and different HOA Board. The sister building to the North has none of the subsidence nor crumbling problems nor the salt water seeping/pooling into the garage basement. Maybe they did better maintenance? Not certain yet methinks.

Next, the $15Million estimated remediation quote for the collapsed building wasn’t going to be divided/assessed equally. It varies between a low cost per 1BR unit to a high cost (nearly 4x for the penthouse level suites). Plus, the HOA Board was told the estimate was contingent on not finding worse damage once the crumbling concrete and corroded rebar was opened up for repairs. I mention that in the sense that human nature was at play here and some owners had a greater burden than others. Furthermore, owners who primarily leased-out their condo and were absentee members of the HOA had a different moral hazard - meaning their lives weren’t at risk if the building was condemned. Insurance would cover their risk of loss.

Lastly, back to precise location. On barrier islands over eons there were a set of phenomena. Known by many names but the same regardless - they are: inlets/cuts, blind passes and haulovers. Storms, hurricanes, droughts and monsoon-like rainy periods changed the landscape.

These changes stretch back before Europeans first came to these shores. Before modern building methods. Before reinforced concrete building supports. Before meets and bounds, land surveyors, developers, dredging, landfill, island reclamation, etc.

I believe, back in the past, narrow inlets/cuts may have existed along Miami Beach in many spots. Over time they became blind passes. Ancient peoples inhabited the islands in structures built from wood and palm fronds - they leaned to and fro as shifting sand and storms affected them. Reinforced concrete is not as forgiving.

Take a look at my birthplace from when it was first built in early 1920’s until now. Pictures are from Miami historical websites and Google Earth.



That photo is probably mid-1930’s. It was a concrete and brick building and withstood hurricanes - most famously the 1926 & Donna visits.

Bear with me, and let’s go back in time a bit more…



In foreground (lower left corner) is a casino/bathhouse and in upper right (directly on the beach) is the Gulfstream apartment building. The hospital can be seen on the Southern tip of Allison Island (approx. 63rd street in today’s numbering plan). Note the smooth 180° radius of that island tip. Also note the symmetrical island shape - the hand of man at work there.

Fast forward…


Yup…dredged up sand an then construction. Eventually the hospital was razed after the land sold in early 1990’s.


And now today…


What do you think the condo owners on the tip of Allison Island know about the sandy landfill holding up their structures? And this is within “modern era”.

What I think is that an inlet/cut may have existed at the collapsed condo site in the distant past. That it became closed during the ravages of many hurricanes over time. If you look at the bayside islands that were filled-in to the West of Surfside (Indian Creek and Biscayne Point) and imagine their original shapes, the beachside was likely much narrower. Maybe looking something like this:


Sadly, “we don’t know what we can’t know” - it would be possibly prehistoric- and it doesn’t change the sorrow and grief hovering above the twisted steel and concrete, the lives forfeited to bad decisions and the lives shattered by this tragedy.

I don’t think each and every beachside building or bayside island made from dredged muck and sand are a site for an imminent tragedy waiting to happen. But I do think the technology to assess their safety should be applied now - not just in Florida but on barrier islands globally.

Thanks for your patience - I’m over analyzing perhaps but I’m so sad for the families…


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[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by 77T

I suppose we will hear many versions of “facts” from the various responsible organizations and parties who will study and dissect this tragedy over the coming years. Possibly “alternative facts” as well due to each party’s position in the past, and their current situation.

I’m from Miami originally; ironically born on Miami Beach in a hospital that’s gone now but was about 10 miles South of Surfside. It isn’t directly relevant to what happened, but I do wonder at a few things I recall from my time on this planet.

First, the building that collapsed has a sister one just two buildings North in the town of Surfside. Same developer, identical design, same builder and material suppliers - but different precise location (more on that later) and different HOA Board. The sister building to the North has none of the subsidence nor crumbling problems nor the salt water seeping/pooling into the garage basement. Maybe they did better maintenance? Not certain yet methinks.

Next, the $15Million estimated remediation quote for the collapsed building wasn’t going to be divided/assessed equally. It varies between a low cost per 1BR unit to a high cost (nearly 4x for the penthouse level suites). Plus, the HOA Board was told the estimate was contingent on not finding worse damage once the crumbling concrete and corroded rebar was opened up for repairs. I mention that in the sense that human nature was at play here and some owners had a greater burden than others. Furthermore, owners who primarily leased-out their condo and were absentee members of the HOA had a different moral hazard - meaning their lives weren’t at risk if the building was condemned. Insurance would cover their risk of loss.

Lastly, back to precise location. On barrier islands over eons there were a set of phenomena. Known by many names but the same regardless - they are: inlets/cuts, blind passes and haulovers. Storms, hurricanes, droughts and monsoon-like rainy periods changed the landscape.

These changes stretch back before Europeans first came to these shores. Before modern building methods. Before reinforced concrete building supports. Before meets and bounds, land surveyors, developers, dredging, landfill, island reclamation, etc.

I believe, back in the past, narrow inlets/cuts may have existed along Miami Beach in many spots. Over time they became blind passes. Ancient peoples inhabited the islands in structures built from wood and palm fronds - they leaned to and fro as shifting sand and storms affected them. Reinforced concrete is not as forgiving.

Take a look at my birthplace from when it was first built in early 1920’s until now. Pictures are from Miami historical websites and Google Earth.

That photo is probably mid-1930’s. It was a concrete and brick building and withstood hurricanes - most famously the 1926 & Donna visits.

Bear with me, and let’s go back in time a bit more…


In foreground (lower left corner) is a casino/bathhouse and in upper right (directly on the beach) is the Gulfstream apartment building. The hospital can be seen on the Southern tip of Allison Island (approx. 63rd street in today’s numbering plan). Note the smooth 180° radius of that island tip. Also note the symmetrical island shape - the hand of man at work there.

Fast forward…


Yup…dredged up sand an then construction. Eventually the hospital was razed after the land sold in early 1990’s.


And now today…

What do you think the condo owners on the tip of Allison Island know about the sandy landfill holding up their structures? And this is within “modern era”.

What I think is that an inlet/cut may have existed at the collapsed condo site in the distant past. That it became closed during the ravages of many hurricanes over time. If you look at the bayside islands that were filled-in to the West of Surfside (Indian Creek and Biscayne Point) and imagine their original shapes, the beachside was likely much narrower. Maybe looking something like this:

Sadly, “we don’t know what we can’t know” - it would be possibly prehistoric- and it doesn’t change the sorrow and grief hovering above the twisted steel and concrete, the lives forfeited to bad decisions and the lives shattered by this tragedy.

I don’t think each and every beachside building or bayside island made from dredged muck and sand are a site for an imminent tragedy waiting to happen. But I do think the technology to assess their safety should be applied now - not just in Florida but on barrier islands globally.

Thanks for your patience - I’m over analyzing perhaps but I’m so sad for the families…


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Paul, well done and thank you. Not over analyzed by any stretch. Great post.

Lots of well documented info here that begs the question, how long until? We may not be here but I can't help but think much (or some) of Miami Beach is on some sort of borrowed time. Maybe 100 years, maybe 100's?

While reclamation might work in places like Dubai where there is stable weather and modern advanced methods, can't compare to volatile and dated Miami Beach.

Expect even stricter inspections and building codes going forward. Condo fees for poorly capitalized associations will likely swell as government might mandated minimum reserve levels.

I keep thinking about pancaked building...horrific image.

[Blansky]

Interesting write-up Paul. Thanks.

Those of us who don't live in coastal places like this have no idea how it all works.....or doesn't.

[Fleetlord]

Here we go...

In this case the municipality did their job finding the issues, but of course nobody did anything about it.

https://youtu.be/qKB-2YdJkJE

Lots and lots of old, weathered buildings in coastal Florida nearing the end of their ability to safely support occupancy without major repairs. It's a mess.

[GB-man]

Once again Paul proves he’s the smartest man alive! Interesting read.

[austinp]

Originally Posted by 77T

I suppose we will hear many versions of “facts” from the various responsible organizations and parties who will study and dissect this tragedy over the coming years. Possibly “alternative facts” as well due to each party’s position in the past, and their current situation.

I’m from Miami originally; ironically born on Miami Beach in a hospital that’s gone now but was about 10 miles South of Surfside. It isn’t directly relevant to what happened, but I do wonder at a few things I recall from my time on this planet.

First, the building that collapsed has a sister one just two buildings North in the town of Surfside. Same developer, identical design, same builder and material suppliers - but different precise location (more on that later) and different HOA Board. The sister building to the North has none of the subsidence nor crumbling problems nor the salt water seeping/pooling into the garage basement. Maybe they did better maintenance? Not certain yet methinks.

Next, the $15Million estimated remediation quote for the collapsed building wasn’t going to be divided/assessed equally. It varies between a low cost per 1BR unit to a high cost (nearly 4x for the penthouse level suites). Plus, the HOA Board was told the estimate was contingent on not finding worse damage once the crumbling concrete and corroded rebar was opened up for repairs. I mention that in the sense that human nature was at play here and some owners had a greater burden than others. Furthermore, owners who primarily leased-out their condo and were absentee members of the HOA had a different moral hazard - meaning their lives weren’t at risk if the building was condemned. Insurance would cover their risk of loss.

Lastly, back to precise location. On barrier islands over eons there were a set of phenomena. Known by many names but the same regardless - they are: inlets/cuts, blind passes and haulovers. Storms, hurricanes, droughts and monsoon-like rainy periods changed the landscape.

These changes stretch back before Europeans first came to these shores. Before modern building methods. Before reinforced concrete building supports. Before meets and bounds, land surveyors, developers, dredging, landfill, island reclamation, etc.

I believe, back in the past, narrow inlets/cuts may have existed along Miami Beach in many spots. Over time they became blind passes. Ancient peoples inhabited the islands in structures built from wood and palm fronds - they leaned to and fro as shifting sand and storms affected them. Reinforced concrete is not as forgiving.

Take a look at my birthplace from when it was first built in early 1920’s until now. Pictures are from Miami historical websites and Google Earth.



That photo is probably mid-1930’s. It was a concrete and brick building and withstood hurricanes - most famously the 1926 & Donna visits.

Bear with me, and let’s go back in time a bit more…



In foreground (lower left corner) is a casino/bathhouse and in upper right (directly on the beach) is the Gulfstream apartment building. The hospital can be seen on the Southern tip of Allison Island (approx. 63rd street in today’s numbering plan). Note the smooth 180° radius of that island tip. Also note the symmetrical island shape - the hand of man at work there.

Fast forward…


Yup…dredged up sand an then construction. Eventually the hospital was razed after the land sold in early 1990’s.


And now today…


What do you think the condo owners on the tip of Allison Island know about the sandy landfill holding up their structures? And this is within “modern era”.

What I think is that an inlet/cut may have existed at the collapsed condo site in the distant past. That it became closed during the ravages of many hurricanes over time. If you look at the bayside islands that were filled-in to the West of Surfside (Indian Creek and Biscayne Point) and imagine their original shapes, the beachside was likely much narrower. Maybe looking something like this:


Sadly, “we don’t know what we can’t know” - it would be possibly prehistoric- and it doesn’t change the sorrow and grief hovering above the twisted steel and concrete, the lives forfeited to bad decisions and the lives shattered by this tragedy.

I don’t think each and every beachside building or bayside island made from dredged muck and sand are a site for an imminent tragedy waiting to happen. But I do think the technology to assess their safety should be applied now - not just in Florida but on barrier islands globally.

Thanks for your patience - I’m over analyzing perhaps but I’m so sad for the families…


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Great information. Thank you.


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[Fleetlord]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/04/us/do...pse/index.html

I can totally see now how disasters like this happen.

When a city inspector negligently stated that the building is “in good shape”, that doomed everything, as it invalided engineering studies to enough residents to cause inaction. Some probably saw the repairs it as a money grab or scam since the city said building was good. Led to lots of dissent and ultimately tragedy.

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Once again Paul proves he’s the smartest man alive! Interesting read.

Indeed. Thanks Paul for insights. Terrible tragedy, but unfortunately there are other buildings across the world with similar issues.