1965 Submariner 5513 Question

[pmalsante]

Hello friends. I'm a frequent reader but an infrequent poster and I'm hoping for some of your expertise on a matter.

A friend who owns a jewelry store is selling a vintage Submariner from 1965. The watch looks great. But I DID notice that the second hand was lacking that smooth Rolex movement. Instead, it very distinctly stopped at each second.

Is that reason to question the watch's authenticity? Or is the "smoothness" of the movement less important/less telling for a Rolex that is almost 60 years old? I wish I snapped some pics to share with you.

Appreciate any insight you all may have on the matter! And any other watchouts you may know about on old models like this.

[Tools]

A modern Rolex movement ticks at 8 times per second so it really isn't completely smooth.

The earlier slower beat movements still ticked at 5 times per second, so, no, it would not stop at each seconds tick, but it would not be as smooth as a more modern fast beat movement.

[pmalsante]

Thanks for the insight Tools.

In the meantime, I was able to snap a pic of the watch. It is pretty banged up, but he is willing to part with it for a great price - $7k. With a new crystal, and an investment into a new (vintage) insert, I think it could be a great get.

But one thing I'm noticing is that the dial and the bezel insert look more like those from 1985. Especially with the width at the top of the number "4" and with the shape of the Rolex logo. I stupidly didn't think to ask to check the serial number while I was at the store in person.

Is it possible that this watch is indeed from 1965 and those parts have just been updated with newer parts? Or is it more likely that the watch is from something more like 1985?

Greatly appreciate a keen eye on it.

[Graecus]

A seconds hand that stopps every second is typically a quarz movement.

I am aware that there were certain rolex models with quarz movement but I believe this would be clearly indicated at the dial and not sure if this was ever the case for this model.

Also I believe quarz movements were introduced later.

So overall it could be that the movement of this watch was replaced by a quarz one...

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[stewester]

I think from the wear to the case 1965 with replacement parts is more likely, but it could be from the 80's and have lived a hard life.

If you take the bracelet off at the 6 o'clock side the serial will tell all (as long as it hasn't been scratched off by the bracelet rubbing). A watch from 1965 will have a serial number starting with a 1, a watch from the 80's will have a serial starting with an 8 or a 9.

At $7k it's a very good buy in the current market as long as something very odd hasn't happened to the movement as you allude to in your first post. It should have a lower beat rate than a current model but should absolutely sweep rather than tick for each second.

[brandrea]

For starters there are no gold surrounds on the markers on a 65, so that dial is later

[neekon]

7k is a great price fora 5513, however there do seem to be some red flags that could require a costly service.

The bezel looks wrong for the year, the dial looks like a service/replacement dial. The bracelet looks like a replacement bracelet, as i believe the 1965 5513 had a rivet bracelet.

Additionally, the ticking second hand, stopping at each second could either indicate a quartz movement(which would be extremely wrong) or somethign wrong with the movement.

I would see if you can open it up and check the movement before doing anything.

if the movement checks out, the 7k purchase price, plus whatever service cost will be will still be well below market value.

[pmalsante]

Thanks a million everyone. The TRF community is truly the best.

I took another look the watch it when I snapped these pics, and while the second hand does indeed move slower than than my 1980 GMT, it doesn't actually stop every second. It was a bit of an optical illusion next to my watch once I watched it on its own.

The seller did tell me that he replaced the bracelet because the other was in such bad shape. The seller knows nothing about watches, and acquired the watch from someone in trade for some jewelry he made, so all he knows is that the guy told him.

I have asked him to take a peek under the bracelet at the serial number and let me know. As you stated stewester, that will tell all.

[hutch300]

My guess is that dial and hands are from the later 80s. The lighter hands and gold surrounds are all marks of a late 80s 5513. I'd love to know the serial number.

[hutch300]

One other idea. Check the year on the bracelet. it would be nice to know that as well.

[inadeje]

Originally Posted by Graecus

A seconds hand that stopps every second is typically a quarz movement.

I am aware that there were certain rolex models with quarz movement but I believe this would be clearly indicated at the dial and not sure if this was ever the case for this model.

Also I believe quarz movements were introduced later.

So overall it could be that the movement of this watch was replaced by a quarz one...

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I have seen this before (with Cartier quartz’s) where the second hand stops every two seconds, however, I was told that it’s an inbuilt design of the movement to advise that the battery is about to expire.

[Dan S]

$7k is a good price no matter what. If it's appealing to you, just buy it and sort it out later. If you ask too many questions, you'll probably lose it or he will raise the price. Believe me, I've learned this lesson the hard way.

[southtexas]

Buy it. And get the old bracelet also. Figure the rest out later.


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[LateLearner]

A 1965 5513 had a glossy enamel dial with gold (gilt) lettering. Approximately 1966 was the last year for gilt lettering, with the “Bart Simpson” crown.
This dial is much later.


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[indianmachine]

Looks like a 1960s case replaced with a mid-to-late 1980s dial and insert.

It will be key to check the dial and make sure those scratches are only on the crystal and not the dial, as it looks from this picture.

Seems like a good buy at $7k if you like it and it's authentic.

[karleone]

Non period correct / service dial hands insert and bracelet. Hard pass even at 7k.

[Mendota]

With all of those service replacement parts that's quite a hodge podge of a watch. By the time you source a period correct dial, handset, insert, and bracelet you could be looking at more than you would want to spend on a 5513 that is either all original to the 60s, or one from the 80s that is all original. From a resale perspective this piece is iffy. If you just want a beater and don't care, then I don't know.

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[1665fan]

Originally Posted by karleone

non period correct / service dial hands insert and bracelet. Hard pass even at 7k.

+1

[TuRo]

Agree with Dan $7000 is 2016 money. Whip the bracelet off and check serial number if you can., then check on line - the crown superficially looks original 65 period ! You're going to be covered by the sale of goods act or equiv' in USA - Vis misrepresentation if it's not a 65 or the calibre (mvt) is not correct, so you can return it and as it's your friend it's no risk presumably. Take a 10 sec vid of second hand mvt and post up to YouTube if you want verification. The dial is 1986 onwards eighties or early 90s service, and I suspect the curved handset are mid to late 90s tritium looking at their shading. A 65 singer gilt dial and old gilt handset will be circa $7-10k or so btw - if it had been a 67 or later they are non-gilt and about half that. Nothing wrong with it though with that service dial. I'd like to forensically check the lug engravings though pls as a proper 65 case and 65 case back is worth $5000 ALONE as it gives the underlying potential of a $25,000 watch if it's fully restored to period. Ps the banged up bracelet was probably a 7206 rivet that are worth $1000 in any condition, so try and get it in deal !

[Toronto Soup King]

$7K is cheap for this, even with the service parts. Sure, someone looking for an all-original museum piece will scoff at this, and some live in the past in terms of prices, but this watch today is a great deal.

[subx]

maybe the seller is wrong about 1965:
nothing about this watch tells 1965, what are going by to say 1965?
bezel, dial, hands, even bracelet are all 90s by the looks of them
7k for a beat 90s sub is about... market.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by subx

maybe the seller is wrong about 1965:
nothing about this watch tells 1965, what are going by to say 1965?
bezel, dial, hands, even bracelet are all 90s by the looks of them
7k for a beat 90s sub is about... market.

What market is that?

[mkruger311]

I'm willing to be it's actually an '85 case. Many times do people think the watch is much older but haven't done their research.

The serial number will tell all. It would have been a rivet bracelet as well so check the clasp code on this what looks to be a 93150.

[MrChamfers]

You can buy a modern sub, mint, for a couple grand more.
I don't see any appeal in this thing.

[hutch300]

I like the idea of not restoring it and just replacing the crystal get a service and wear/enjoy the watch. Yes a 14060 is not much more but its not all about that. 4 digit charm is real.

[Dan S]

Going on 11 days now, slowest Rolex sale in history.

[Greglaw]

Looks like a 6 year old painted some of the wording...hmmmmm

[1665fan]

That thing is junk

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Greglaw

Looks like a 6 year old painted some of the wording...hmmmmm

We’re talking about a low-rez pic of a watch with a scratched, blemished, and chipped, crystal. Are you suggesting it’s repainted/fake?

[1675-David]

for 7k it's a steal!!