Rolex v Grand Seiko?

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by swish77

Here's my main take on this debate:

Rolex rules the watch market with classic but somewhat conservative (aka sometimes boring) watches that are built like tanks. They're very special, for whatever reason, and they have an unmatched history and marketing machine, coupled with a buying frenzy created by genius supply-demand shenanigans.

Grand Seiko has the best dials AND cases in the watch industry. Yes, I said it. The quality, finish and design are insane, arguably "better" than Rolex. They're the most interesting, innovative and funky, with super-cool Japanese aesthetics that reference lakes, mountains, cherry blossoms, etc ... No other brand does this. Many of the watches are stunningly beautiful, a description I'd never give to Rolex, which makes solid handsome watches, but that's it.

GS movements are also more special and interesting. And can we stop equating Spring Drives with quartz movements? They're completely different. For starters, there is no battery in an SD.

The GS bracelets could/should be better, but I'm someone who considers bracelets almost like tires on a car. I swap them out a lot, and I love straps, so that issue is really a non-issue for me.

Lastly, unless someone dislikes how virtually ALL watch companies brand their timepieces, stop picking on Grand Seiko. For example, I've never heard anyone complain about Audemars Piguet, and they do the exact same thing on their dials, with the "AP" logo atop "Audemars Piguet."

P.S. All Grand Seikos in the U.S. can be serviced by the dedicated GS service center in New Jersey. They do not need to be sent back to Japan.

Many things can be said about GS watches, and some guys just don't like them for whatever reason, but you cannot say their styling is "unimaginative." In fact, I'd argue GS design/styling is THE most imaginative in the industry. Who else would design a dial to look like white birch trees in a forest?

Couldn't have said it any better.

[samson66]

Originally Posted by Tbonewalk

here is mine, champagne dial. You got a super picture here of yours! An impressive watch, that money doesn't go far in the Rolex world... this blows away many Rolex models...

That looks great on that strap. Can I ask which strap that is?

I picked up a Barton black leather for mine, but yours looks like a few steps up and I would love to have a deployant clasp like that.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by samson66

That looks great on that strap. Can I ask which strap that is?

I picked up a Barton black leather for mine, but yours looks like a few steps up and I would love to have a deployant clasp like that.

That looks great, and the GS champagne dials are so stunning, very different to their silver dials.

[Overwound]

Originally Posted by Dirt

With regard to long term parts availability, I believe GS has sufficient commitment to service movements for the foreseeable future.
I keep hearing different things about that as well, but I believe I have seen it stated to be as long as 35 years after production ceases

That's correct. Seiko watches stock replacement parts for 10 years. Grand Seiko will have parts available for 30 years.

Here's the post from Joe Kirk of GS USA. It's the fifth question/answer down on the list.

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/f...rvice.4203962/

[CharliesPal]

I've owned 4 Grand Seiko's : 


Grand Seiko 'Limited Edition' SBGR311
Grand Seiko "Snowflake' SBGA211
Grand Seiko 'Limited Edition'  GMT SBGN001
Grand Seiko 'Heritage Collection' SBGV229

I currently own none.

Grand Seiko's have incredible dials...but then, so does many Seiko's, even Seiko 5's. Their bracelets are subpar, a Seiko trademark and if one was to compare them to any modern Rolex bracelet, the Grand Seiko bracelets are junk.

I like their movement's, especially their HAQ Caliber 9F models, I never did buy into the whole watch having a ''soul'' and one must shun all quartz. Grand Seiko like Seiko grow their own quartz crystals, keeping everything in-house and their 9F models are crazy accurate.

Another strong point is the Zaratsu polishing but having had the models I've had I can honestly say that they are no better than other higher end brands that I compared them to.

My opinion is that while Grand Seiko makes a nice watch they are years away from having the quality feel that a Rolex has when handled and worn.

[1William]

Originally Posted by CharliesPal

I've owned 4 Grand Seiko's : 


Grand Seiko 'Limited Edition' SBGR311
Grand Seiko "Snowflake' SBGA211
Grand Seiko 'Limited Edition'  GMT SBGN001
Grand Seiko 'Heritage Collection' SBGV229

I currently own none.

Grand Seiko's have incredible dials...but then, so does many Seiko's, even Seiko 5's. Their bracelets are subpar, a Seiko trademark and if one was to compare them to any modern Rolex bracelet, the Grand Seiko bracelets are junk.

I like their movement's, especially their HAQ Caliber 9F models, I never did buy into the whole watch having a ''soul'' and one must shun all quartz. Grand Seiko like Seiko grow their own quartz crystals, keeping everything in-house and their 9F models are crazy accurate.

Another strong point is the Zaratsu polishing but having had the models I've had I can honestly say that they are no better than other higher end brands that I compared them to.

My opinion is that while Grand Seiko makes a nice watch they are years away from having the quality feel that a Rolex has when handled and worn.

All good points. The bracelets are a big one for me. It is almost like GS and Seiko stick with what they have even though it is well know that customers want a better bracelet.

[samson66]

Originally Posted by CharliesPal

I've owned 4 Grand Seiko's : 


Grand Seiko 'Limited Edition' SBGR311
Grand Seiko "Snowflake' SBGA211
Grand Seiko 'Limited Edition'  GMT SBGN001
Grand Seiko 'Heritage Collection' SBGV229

I currently own none.

Grand Seiko's have incredible dials...but then, so does many Seiko's, even Seiko 5's. Their bracelets are subpar, a Seiko trademark and if one was to compare them to any modern Rolex bracelet, the Grand Seiko bracelets are junk.

I like their movement's, especially their HAQ Caliber 9F models, I never did buy into the whole watch having a ''soul'' and one must shun all quartz. Grand Seiko like Seiko grow their own quartz crystals, keeping everything in-house and their 9F models are crazy accurate.

Another strong point is the Zaratsu polishing but having had the models I've had I can honestly say that they are no better than other higher end brands that I compared them to.

My opinion is that while Grand Seiko makes a nice watch they are years away from having the quality feel that a Rolex has when handled and worn.

Basically you are saying GS makes a better watch (dial, finishing, movement) and Rolex makes a better bracelet. I agree with that assessment. To me the watch is more important than the bracelet, but I agree completely that Rolex just kills them (and most other brands) with their bracelets. They are like butter.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by samson66

Basically you are saying GS makes a better watch (dial, finishing, movement) and Rolex makes a better bracelet. I agree with that assessment. To me the watch is more important than the bracelet, but I agree completely that Rolex just kills them (and most other brands) with their bracelets. They are like butter.

I find the bracelet and clasp on my SBGT235 really comfortable and very smooth to open and close, compared to my Rolex bracelets. Certainly not all GS bracelets are the same.

[CharliesPal]

Yes, my comments were just based off of the models that I've owned and again just my opinion. Also I should point out that I didn't part ways with my Grand Seiko's due to a perceived lack of quality or that I didn't like them. I sold off the bulk of my original collection and they went along with my Rolex's. I've every intension of one day owning another as they are a fine watch and what they do well...they do very well.

On a side note : I've heard that the bracelets on the Seiko Prospex LX models are extremly well made and comfortable to wear.

[Devildog]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

I’ve literally never met anyone who’s done this. Who do you hang out with?

its very much a thing amongst the younger or more image conscious wearers where it is all about the name on the dial.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by Devildog

its very much a thing amongst the younger or more image conscious wearers where it is all about the name on the dial.

I don’t know anybody young or image conscious, I guess that’s why I’ve never seen anybody do this.

[wesdaniel]

I own two Grand Seiko watches - the SBGA407 (skyflake) and the SBGJ259 (green bamboo). My current Rolex collection consists of a SkyDweller (326933), DayDate (118238), and Explorer II (16570). I've previously owned multiple other Rolex watches.

Rolex feels sturdier and heftier than Grand Seiko. As I like a "beefier" watch, I do enjoy wearing my Rolex watches more than my Grand Seikos.

But, when I wear my Grand Seikos, I can sometimes get lost staring at the dials, hands, and indices. I actually take photos of my GS in different lighting and conditions to see how different the dials look on them under different conditions. As others have said, the depth, detail, and finishing are far above anything with my Rolex.

You referenced specifically a Rolex OP. Given the choice between most any GS and an OP, I'd inevitably choose the GS all day.

And, as you mentioned, you can actually buy a GS. You can go into a Grand Seiko boutique, and be treated as a valued customer while a Rolex boutique will basically sneer at you and tell you to get lost.

GS has a rightful place in most any collection. I have no regrets on mine.

[FrenchBigCrown]

Originally Posted by wesdaniel

I own two Grand Seiko watches - the SBGA407 (skyflake) and the SBGJ259 (green bamboo). My current Rolex collection consists of a SkyDweller (326933), DayDate (118238), and Explorer II (16570). I've previously owned multiple other Rolex watches.

Rolex feels sturdier and heftier than Grand Seiko. As I like a "beefier" watch, I do enjoy wearing my Rolex watches more than my Grand Seikos.

But, when I wear my Grand Seikos, I can sometimes get lost staring at the dials, hands, and indices. I actually take photos of my GS in different lighting and conditions to see how different the dials look on them under different conditions. As others have said, the depth, detail, and finishing are far above anything with my Rolex.

You referenced specifically a Rolex OP. Given the choice between most any GS and an OP, I'd inevitably choose the GS all day.

And, as you mentioned, you can actually buy a GS. You can go into a Grand Seiko boutique, and be treated as a valued customer while a Rolex boutique will basically sneer at you and tell you to get lost.

GS has a rightful place in most any collection. I have no regrets on mine.

Nice pair of GS... health to enjoy!

[greeneyedguy]

I own both a GS Omiwatari and a Daytona. Sometimes I will wear the Daytona and then switch to the GS later on that day. I do not feel like I am changing to a cheaper watch even though the Daytona cost about 5k more at retail. The Omiwatari is a perfect stainless dress watch that checks all the boxes for an enthusiast collector. The movement is only present in one other GS model and that watch cost 50k. The dial is stunning, the blue second hand mesmerizing, and case is thin and glows in the light due to the polishing. I love my Rolex, the dial, the bracelet, the prestige of owning an icon, but I feel the GS I ended up buying perfectly encompasses my love for Japanese engineering and attention to detail.

[JR16]

I think GS bracelets get a bad wrap- I find them very comfortable once you get it properly sized / adjusted- and this is the hardest part and usually takes me a few tries before finding perfect fit . Would be a touch easier if their were micro adjustments and these are really my only gripes w the GS bracelet. Otherwise it’s solid, looks nice and is as comfortable on my wrist as most of my Rolex and my steel PP.


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[Andad]

Nice pix all.

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by JR16

I think GS bracelets get a bad wrap- I find them very comfortable once you get it properly sized / adjusted- and this is the hardest part and usually takes me a few tries before finding perfect fit . Would be a touch easier if their were micro adjustments and these are really my only gripes w the GS bracelet. Otherwise it’s solid, looks nice and is as comfortable on my wrist as most of my Rolex and my steel PP.


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I too find the GS bracelet very comfortable. Sizing in the correct manner is key. I also very much appreciate the small clasp. I despise a large clasp. Especially from the big R as well as the "O". Once fitted, I have no complaints what so ever.

[zengineer]

Originally Posted by duquephart

The saying goes that you buy/wear Rolex to impress others and buy/wear GS to impress yourself.

I will grant that on average a GS buyer is less likely to be buying a watch in the hope that it will impress anyone, but this and your alternative "be somebody" version is a hackneyed and tiresome comment.

It's fair to say that few GS buyers expect it to raise their status outside the sub-forum of a watch website but painting Rolex owners with such a broad brush is some pretty weak sauce.

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[DJ2020]

In our watch club, it is very obvious when a new member joins to tell if there a true watch enthusiast of part of the herd or flexer. Longtime members such as myself appreciate many different watches for many different reasons. We share our passion with other members who do likewise. I don't care for every watch made by any single brand or by price point.

But when the new guy starts the conversation by announcing "it's a rolex" and just can't recognize any other brand as quality equal to or better than his, He usually finds his self alone. There are a few watches that I really enjoy from many brands. There all marvelous in there own right. That's what it's all about for me.

I have found that I truly enjoy quite a few from GS. I own many and enjoy them all for different reasons. Strangely no 2 are the same. All have different cases, shapes and sizes. At present I am contemplating a Panerai. I have owned a few. But this one intrest me. We shall see if it makes the cut.

But one thing above all. I love the passion in a true enthusiast. One who can look past a name and enjoy a piece for its own terms.

[HiBoost]

Both brands have plenty of over-hypers and baseless haters. All I can say is everyone needs to see a watch in person to really know. My level of disappointment after finally seeing a Sky-Dweller in person was only eclipsed by my disappointment in seeing an Omiwatari. And on that latter day I first saw a JLC Master Control, which I previously had no interest in, but shortly thereafter purchased.

We all like different things. Trying to convince somebody else to adopt your watch preference is like trying to tell them what their favorite food should be.

[INC]

I think the line between enthusiasm and religious conviction is narrow.

Therefore it isn't worth arguing with those who want to find their faith and their self-confidence in their watches.

[1William]

Originally Posted by DJ2020

In our watch club, it is very obvious when a new member joins to tell if there a true watch enthusiast of part of the herd or flexer. Longtime members such as myself appreciate many different watches for many different reasons. We share our passion with other members who do likewise. I don't care for every watch made by any single brand or by price point.

But when the new guy starts the conversation by announcing "it's a rolex" and just can't recognize any other brand as quality equal to or better than his, He usually finds his self alone. There are a few watches that I really enjoy from many brands. There all marvelous in there own right. That's what it's all about for me.

I have found that I truly enjoy quite a few from GS. I own many and enjoy them all for different reasons. Strangely no 2 are the same. All have different cases, shapes and sizes. At present I am contemplating a Panerai. I have owned a few. But this one intrest me. We shall see if it makes the cut.

But one thing above all. I love the passion in a true enthusiast. One who can look past a name and enjoy a piece for its own terms.

Some very good points. In our local watch club, as new members attend events, it is apparent who has been in the hobby for a while and who is typically new. Strong statements and opinions tend to flow from the least informed, educated and experienced. But I remember back to when I got involved in the hobby in the early 90's and I was that guy. It took a lot of life experience and watch experience before I started to understand that there are many great brands and someone's personal preference is just that. Grand Seiko is a fabulous brand and for many reasons you can have a discussion about why they are better than some others. You can also have a discussion about how great other brands are at what they do. One brand does not have to be diminished to point to the other brand. Just some thoughts.

[DJ2020]

True, very true.

[Megalobyte]

In my experience they’re both very good watches at their typical price points.

Rolex does some things better, as does GS. I will say I think Rolex offers a better overall package. Their designs and quality are solid, thoughtful and effective, their warranty and access to quality service are top notch. GS on the other hand does have a few glaring faults. Namely bracelets and clasps that are not up to par, cases that are thicker than is appropriate, and their non spring drive movements are not as consistently accurate as Rolex. Add to these, problematic service. I suspect they’ll improve on these areas in time.

My takeaway is, the hard core enthusiasts, aka fan boys, are equally obnoxious in *both* brands. And, it’s ironic, but in a strange way, GS fans are just as snobby in their own way as the over the top Rolex fans. They sort of became the thing they hate. :) In the same way Rolex fans, incorrectly believe Rolex is the pinnacle of horology, GS fans likewise inflate and overstate how good GS is. They’re both great. But GS does not “wipe the floor with Patek”, and neither does Rolex for that matter.

There’s room and a market clearly, for both.

[Reikolexguy]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Both brands have plenty of over-hypers and baseless haters. All I can say is everyone needs to see a watch in person to really know. My level of disappointment after finally seeing a Sky-Dweller in person was only eclipsed by my disappointment in seeing an Omiwatari. And on that latter day I first saw a JLC Master Control, which I previously had no interest in, but shortly thereafter purchased.

We all like different things. Trying to convince somebody else to adopt your watch preference is like trying to tell them what their favorite food should be.

I had the same experience when I saw the Omiwatari in person for the first time. It was really underwhelming.

I’ve slimmed down my GS to just one LE diver SBGA071. Typical excellent finishing as expected on any GS.

Used to own a SBGC221 & SBGJ239 but sold them to make way for a sky-dweller.

The Rolex sky-dweller is my favourite watch.

It’s the most functionally useful wrist watch in my collection (annual calendar / second time zone / 100m WR so no fear of entering a pool or shower). Perfect for idiots like myself who can never remember dates. Helps that they didn’t integrate additional crowns / pushers to set the calendar.

Love the JLC MC series, particularly the MC calendar. But the recessed pin pusher was a deal breaker for me. It makes me nervous because of how it feels like an invitation for water ingress.

The next grail watch would be a Ulysse Nardin perpetual manufacture (GMT + perpetual calendar that can be set backward and forward).

There’s definitely space in any collection for both brands.

The value proposition of GS though, has diminished substantially since the new series 9 launch. MSRP makes it really hard to stomach. I’d only go pre-owned or look at the Seiko prospex LX / Tudor range now.

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[Gebbeth]

I think everyone likes to bash the "newcomer," and by that I mean the brand that tries to make its way into the old boy, Swiss, tier network. All the while, people ignore the obvious flaws in the established models because of the "name."

Objectively, GS makes watches "on par" with Rolex. They only fail in their bracelets...which is a flaw, there are no two ways about it. But it's also an area that they can easily, easily fix, and I have to believe they are working on a solution.

But, I do not expect the GS bashing to continue. It's just the nature of the game.

I hear the same nit-picking about Czapek, another upstart. But watch "collecting" is a long-term play. I can't predict where this market will go and for which brand, but I do know things change quickly....public perception, desirability, status....I'm sure if GS refines it's approach, and just by virtue of time, there may be less nitpicking of GS at least to the point of being on par with the Rolex's and JLC's of the world.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Gebbeth

I think everyone likes to bash the "newcomer," and by that I mean the brand that tries to make its way into the old boy, Swiss, tier network. All the while, people ignore the obvious flaws in the established models because of the "name."

Objectively, GS makes watches "on par" with Rolex. They only fail in their bracelets...which is a flaw, there are no two ways about it. But it's also an area that they can easily, easily fix, and I have to believe they are working on a solution.

But, I do not expect the GS bashing to continue. It's just the nature of the game.

I hear the same nit-picking about Czapek, another upstart. But watch "collecting" is a long-term play. I can't predict where this market will go and for which brand, but I do know things change quickly....public perception, desirability, status....I'm sure if GS refines it's approach, and just by virtue of time, there may be less nitpicking of GS at least to the point of being on par with the Rolex's and JLC's of the world.

I think GS is always going to fight an uphill battle because of the "Seiko" part of their name. Sadly, this association seems to be getting worse. The forums are littered with QC issues on cheaper (but not really cheap) Seiko models. Years back I used to brag about the rock solid performance of my $200 Seiko divers. But now I have friends with newer models approaching $1000 and having multiple issues.

I guess what I'm saying is "Seiko makes a hell of a watch for $200, imagine what they can do for $6000" sounded a lot more compelling than "I'm paying $6000 for a watch made by the same company who can't get a bezel aligned on a $1000 watch, whose movements seem less reliable than the previous generation, and whose bracelets rattle like a dog collar?"

Granted, one of those jabs might apply to Rolex too

[Loevhagen]

The last year, I have gravitated towards GS. I like Rolex, but to be honest there is something truly special about GS. Have added two more GS' since this summer when this photo was taken.

The GS fit and finish is sublime.

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by Loevhagen

The last year, I have gravitated towards GS. I like Rolex, but to be honest there is something truly special about GS. Have added two more GS' since this summer when this photo was taken.

The GS fit and finish is sublime.

And some nice ones at that! I like Rolex as well, but not as much as GS. The more I wear and look at them I continue to be extremely impressed. I have actually tried to find a defect, there just not there time after time. I purchased 3 so far this year and planning on at least 3 more. Want to pick up some LE's before there gone.

[GST15]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

I think GS is always going to fight an uphill battle because of the "Seiko" part of their name. Sadly, this association seems to be getting worse. The forums are littered with QC issues on cheaper (but not really cheap) Seiko models. Years back I used to brag about the rock solid performance of my $200 Seiko divers. But now I have friends with newer models approaching $1000 and having multiple issues.

I guess what I'm saying is "Seiko makes a hell of a watch for $200, imagine what they can do for $6000" sounded a lot more compelling than "I'm paying $6000 for a watch made by the same company who can't get a bezel aligned on a $1000 watch, whose movements seem less reliable than the previous generation, and whose bracelets rattle like a dog collar?"

Granted, one of those jabs might apply to Rolex too

I agree, Seiko name is an anchor. Love GS, but's its not a Rolex. Name recognition and value retention is a major win for Rolex. I know all about the history of the Seiko name, but GS will never get the status it DESERVES until they brand it under another name. Too many levels of the same name with Seiko, from $200 to 10K doesn't work IMHO