End of Crypto?

[superdog]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

They're mostly doing very, very well and still working in the sector.

thats frustrating.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by superdog

thats frustrating.

Naaaa, really it's just the norm of the system.

Play on Playa

[superdog]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Naaaa, really it's just the norm of the system.

Play on Playa

I’m glad for you. Truly. Yours is the better way.

It frustrating is for me.

To me, watching activities such as that go unchecked, and worse, not learned from is disappointing.

Your mileage clearly varies.

[huncho]

blockfi gave a 680m loan as part of "Institutional and Retail Loans" to...guess who? oh yeah it was SBF/alameda

so 46% of customer deposits went out as loans and 1/3 of that went to SBF

gross incompetence all over. it's amazing looking back how crypto was supposed to be defi and letting people be in control of their own funds and turned into giving all your money to idiots who were then using it to trade on leverage instead of holding your money. now defi will never take off because you need extra regulation thanks to all these people

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by huncho

... idiots who were then using it to trade on leverage.

(Humble apologies if i come off as a _____ here. Pretty please be cool about my bit of snarkiness here) Just wait until you learn about fractional reserve banking (with little to no reserves). Ask yourself how high leverage is that system using?

The Goal: Be as close to when currency is produced as possible. It is when the currency is at its highest buying power. The longer the currency is within the system, the less value in storage it has. That's guaranteed due to the system it exists within.

The good news is that crypto going wildly up helps add consumption to the economy, so in a sense a way to help the system create new assets. If things get desperate enough with a crashing economy, who knows where crypto will be 'valued'. In a sense, we already know where central bank currencies will be (lower in value).


jmho ymmv

[huncho]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

(Humble apologies if i come off as a _____ here. Pretty please be cool about my bit of snarkiness here) Just wait until you learn about fractional reserve banking (with little to no reserves). Ask yourself how high leverage is that system using?

The Goal: Be as close to when currency is produced as possible. It is when the currency is at its highest buying power. The longer the currency is within the system, the less value in storage it has. That's guaranteed due to the system it exists within.

The good news is that crypto going wildly up helps add consumption to the economy, so in a sense a way to help the system create new assets. If things get desperate enough with a crashing economy, who knows where crypto will be 'valued'. In a sense, we already know where central bank currencies will be (lower in value).


jmho ymmv

the difference is big banks explicitly say they're operating on a fractional reserve basis + there's insurance and they get bailed out by the fed if they blow up. these exchanges never mentioned anything about fractional reserves and said they have a 1:1 ratio for reserves:deposits while it was the opposite and they were using those funds to trade shitcoins on leverage in order to pay people unsustainable yields. if you look at coinbase, they were conservative with their yields this whole time and have proof of reserves because they're publicly traded and not doing anything stupid

i can only imagine how leveraged traditional finance is though lol, but they'll never let it blow up with regulations/politics in place. crypto just is way too early in that sense. it's really the wild west and a race to the gold in any way possible

for what it's worth i'm still very much bullish on btc long term and most likely eth, and i'm buying still. this just reassured me that the rest of crypto is trash for now and a while, and is basically just a way to make money without any actual utility (for now)

[HHIslander]

Originally Posted by huncho

the difference is big banks explicitly say they're operating on a fractional reserve basis + there's insurance and they get bailed out by the fed if they blow up. these exchanges never mentioned anything about fractional reserves and said they have a 1:1 ratio for reserves:deposits while it was the opposite and they were using those funds to trade shitcoins on leverage in order to pay people unsustainable yields. if you look at coinbase, they were conservative with their yields this whole time and have proof of reserves because they're publicly traded and not doing anything stupid

i can only imagine how leveraged traditional finance is though lol, but they'll never let it blow up with regulations/politics in place. crypto just is way too early in that sense. it's really the wild west and a race to the gold in any way possibl)

Yep. And if all reports are true and it’s proven that SBF diverted funds from those customer deposit reserves into his personal account and spent them on houses, condos, etc, then he will surely be going to jail.

In 08, bankers didn’t really break the law. They were investigated for years and nothing happened because taking on excessive risk wasn’t illegal. They were also smart enough to get paid via salaries and bonus contracts, they didn’t tap into customer funds directly. /s

If you want an analogy to FTX, take a look at the savings and loan crisis of the 80s. They did the same thing SBF has done. Over a thousand bankers went to jail. I know a few regulators/enforcement folks and they dream of making examples of people like SBF, he’s not getting off. I’d almost bet my life on that.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by huncho

the difference is big banks explicitly say they're operating on a fractional reserve basis + there's insurance and they get bailed out by the fed if they blow up.

Since the FDIC is woefully underfunded, that means producing more currency (bailout), which means further / accelerated currency devaluation.

these exchanges never mentioned anything about fractional reserves and said they have a 1:1 ratio for reserves: deposits while it was the opposite and they were using those funds to trade shitcoins on leverage in order to pay people unsustainable yields.

Let's see of regulators/etc reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act. See, the currently in place system has been down this road before.

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Just saw this, an interesting take on how the banking system's small 3% here and 2.5% there is robbing value. The below are not my words, yet it's good food for thought imho.

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currency.jpg

Give you something to think about. Why should we pay cash everywhere with banknotes instead of a card?

- I have a £50 banknote in my pocket. I go to a restaurant and paying for dinner with it. The restaurant owner then uses the note to pay for the laundry. The laundry owner then uses the note to pay the barber. The barber will then use the note for shopping. After an unlimited number of payments, it will still remain a £50, which has fulfilled its purpose to everyone who used it for payment and the bank has jumped dry from every cash payment transaction made.

- But if I come to a restaurant and pay for dinner digitally - Card bank fees for my payment transaction charged to the seller are 3%, so around £1.50 and so the fee will be £1.50 for each further payment transaction or owner re laundry or payments of the owner of the laundry shop, or payments of the barber etc.... Therefore, after 30 transactions, the initial £50 will remain only £5 and the remaining £45 became the property of the bank thanks to all digital transactions and fees.

[BLACKHORSE 6]

SBF has just done two interviews with a crypto vlogger. I haven’t listened to the all of them yet, but listening to this guy talk is amazing and frustrating at the same time. Imagine an interview with Bernie Madoff after everything came crashing down and while there was an ongoing investigation. Shocking that the guy would open his mouth, not to mention what he says about the bankruptcy.

https://youtu.be/6DezodR9hNI

https://youtu.be/xP54LZB3WRw

Also saw this the other day. A press statement from the Attorney General of the Bahamas basically saying that they are investigating FTX and any criminal activity that may have occurred. A lot of it is government propaganda, but at least they’re paying lip service to the rule of law.

https://youtu.be/ZFTJliFl5Fo

[HHIslander]

PSA: SBF will be interviewed live on CNBC today at 5pm est. 25 minutes from now.

:popcorn:

[Letsgodiving]

ECB (European Central Bank) officials stated today that they believe BTC is in "an artificially induced last gasp before the road to irrelevance".

https://www.barrons.com/articles/ecb...on-51669832794

[enjoythemusic]

[Mifune]

Wow... SBF is shaking. That leg is flying

[BLACKHORSE 6]

He must not have lawyered up yet. If he had, they wouldn’t let him do these interviews and answer these questions.

Not that he’s really answering them…

[BLACKHORSE 6]

Originally Posted by BLACKHORSE 6

He must not have lawyered up yet. If he had, they wouldn’t let him do these interviews and answer these questions.

Not that he’s really answering them…

Ok. Just listened to the part where he says that he’s going against legal advice.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Naaaa, really it's just the norm of the system.

Play on Playa

Originally Posted by BLACKHORSE 6

Ok. Just listened to the part where he says that he’s going against legal advice.

Because he’s a spoiled brat who’s never faced real consequences (like poverty, prison, unemployment, or rejection and isolation) it’s all a joke to him. He thinks ignoring “the lawyers” is the type of cool and funny behavior a maverick tech founder should be engaging in.

[Mifune]

TECHNICAL difficulties just when they were talking about Politics... ruh roh

[Duey]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

(Humble apologies if i come off as a _____ here. Pretty please be cool about my bit of snarkiness here) Just wait until you learn about fractional reserve banking (with little to no reserves). Ask yourself how high leverage is that system using?

The Goal: Be as close to when currency is produced as possible. It is when the currency is at its highest buying power. The longer the currency is within the system, the less value in storage it has. That's guaranteed due to the system it exists within.

The good news is that crypto going wildly up helps add consumption to the economy, so in a sense a way to help the system create new assets. If things get desperate enough with a crashing economy, who knows where crypto will be 'valued'. In a sense, we already know where central bank currencies will be (lower in value).


jmho ymmv

Steve - You always try to put down the USD and the currency being printed when ever.

But the truth is that all the people want to turn their crypto into cash. How many people say they lost 2 bitcoins? They only talk about their bitcoins as if they were actual currency.

Crypto aka Bitcoin is not money in any way shape or form.

1) It has no intrinsic value in that it is not redeemable for another commodity, such as gold or cash.

2) It has no physical form and it exists only in the network.


It's a math equation that's it

People try to tell others that it has a value but it does not because it is not real as the world sees reality ...

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Duey

Steve - You always try to put down the USD and the currency being printed when ever.

But the truth is that all the people want to turn their crypto into cash. How many people say they lost 2 bitcoins? They only talk about their bitcoins as if they were actual currency.

Crypto aka Bitcoin is not money in any way shape or form.

1) It has no intrinsic value in that it is not redeemable for another commodity, such as gold or cash.

2) It has no physical form and it exists only in the network.


It's a math equation that's it

People try to tell others that it has a value but it does not because it is not real as the world sees reality ...

If I accept it at my place of business as a form of payment for goods or services, would that not defeat #1?

[Duey]

Originally Posted by pickettt

If I accept it at my place of business as a form of payment for goods or services, would that not defeat #1?

As long as it's priced in Crypto and not USD yes it would.
But that's not how it's working people except Crypto converted to USD.

DavidSW excepts Crypto but how many watches on his site are priced in Bitcoin ???? ( The answer is ZERO ) - You have to convert to USD to buy

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Duey

Steve - You always try to put down the USD and the currency being printed when ever.

Apologies if you / others read into it that it's somehow only USD.

It's all modern central bank currencies devalue on an ongoing basis. Am not at all 'putting them down', it is a fact in the math / known ever-declining buying power.

Fact, not opinion. Math doesn't lie.

This is backed by decades of solid math and reaffirmed by central bank representatives who target anything more than 0% interest rate. For those who understand compound annual calculations, at 2% annual devaluation (aka inflation), what is the loss of value after only 10 years? After 20 years?

Now do the same calculation at 4% annual inflation for 10 years... and 20 years. HINT: The 20-year calculation should scare the living sh__ out of you.

So, with those calculations done, would you call any of the above a stable currency as in no gain or loss over time?

And what are the ramifications of these losses?

Aaaaand here's where Steven goes a bit off-the-rails....

We could extend this to societal problems, as in how has the devaluation of currency over time negatively affected family life? If the norm was a single parent working could support a family of four... but decades later now both parents have to work to keep the same living standard... what are the long-term problems in society since both parents have to work (children lack parenting time, for example).

Back on the rails, let's get back to currency chat.

There's not a single modern central bank currency that is stable, none. They all devalue (some faster than others). I challenge you to find a modern currency that has increased in buying power over time.

But the truth is that all the people want to turn their crypto into cash. How many people say they lost 2 bitcoins? They only talk about their bitcoins as if they were actual currency.

Broadly speaking, am not a crypto fanboy, or gold / silver for that matter (we know for fact PMs are manipulated by Wall Street / Traders).

But pretty please sit back and understand the pros and cons of each system of exchange for goods / services / etc. Also calculate the buying power long-term, including the fees / loss due to using ___ as a form of exchange for goods and services.

Carrying loss and usage fees can hurt a company's bottom line, and a family's savings and future hopes of a certain lifestyle as they reach retirement.

Of course there are great 'profits' to be made if you are the credit card issuer / financial institution. These fees, imho, are a big drag on a country's economy as it (broadly) takes away much-needed funds from consumers. These fees moreso (percentage-wise of their income) hurt those who can least afford it (the working poor).

Crypto aka Bitcoin is not money in any way shape or form.

And no modern central bank currency is money either, but that gets into the actual meaning of words (and am sure i sound like a total d*ck even pointing this out). Currency is not money. Just as inflation is, imho, better understood when it is referred to as currency devaluation.

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Referring to crypto

1) It has no intrinsic value in that it is not redeemable for another commodity, such as gold or cash.

It can if two people agree it is during an exchange (akin to bartering), but would rather focus on the bigger picture. Brazil has just voted to allow crypto, and i believe the Middle East is also a big proponent of crypto (and when the oil-rich ME likes it, pay attention imho).

Again, am not a crypto / gold / tulip fanboy. Am more a fan of trying to achieve the best results from efforts / work, and preserve the storage of value due to these efforts / work over time. Am simply looking over the scope of things in a broad manner over the decades. If there is one thing i am a fan of, it is bartering. Two parties have something (work for hire, a couch, bottle of booze, toilet paper... whatever) and they agree on their own exchange. Agreed exchange, with no loss during the transaction to a (parasitic) third party.


Back to crypto...

2) It has no physical form and it exists only in the network.

Like the stock market / bonds / electronic claims that are said to represent precious metals...

TRF has zero value?

Ouch, that's gonna sting a bit. Sorry Steve, TRF has enormous value imho even tho there's nothing physical about it.

Currently, a majority of central bank currencies and their financial system scheme used for the exchange of goods and services is electronic. Am sure we can agree there is very little actual cost when central banks choose to expand the quality of their currencies by a few billion here, a trillion or two there. Logically speaking, when a single company at a set known value chooses to add / create a few million more stock 'certificates' available for public sale, it devalues all the stocks that preceded it (since there are more claims on the same known overall value of the underlining company).

Perhaps the bigger question is, how can you maximize the value of your efforts? How can you reduce your exposure to systemic losses due to transaction fees? And, perhaps most important of all, what is the best way to preserve the value in ____ longterm.


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It deeeeeply saddens me this is not discussed more, is the large picture concerning the negative outcome of society due to currency devaluation. Less parental hours for the upbringing of children, less time to help your parents, and one's personal health issues are increased due to working more / higher stress to achieve the same level of living as you had just a handful of years earlier.

There are far broader 'costs' to society / humankind due to modern currency schemes, and paying attention to social problems is far more important than 'the economy'.

NOTE: All the above jmho. Am not a financial manager, have no college degree, and oh heck, you just read something written by a high school dropout.

[Duey]

"humankind due to modern Crypto schemes"

You're still not talking about the down falls of Crypto like we're seeing today. SBF is living proof here and now. Currency aside Crypto in it's self is a scam. Dogecoin was created as a joke ... and people bought it with real money knowing it was a joke. And some guys made a lot of money off these people, my son for one, who throw their money away.

I'm with you all the way on bartering and such but Crypto is a math equation in simple terms it's not money. A great place for it is the Metaverse , it's only on the network and not real either.

Here's a good read on a country and Crypto -

Venezuelan Currency Plunges Almost 40% Against the US Dollar, Analysts Cite Crypto Drought as Part of the Problem

https://news.bitcoin.com/venezuelan-...f-the-problem/

[enjoythemusic]

Good points Duey, which is why i'm not a 'longterm hold' fanboy of any of them.

Now as for 'the kids' who mined BTC when it was a few pennies or a buck or two, they're still fine. For them, today's BTC conversion rate to currency helps a country's banking system create new assets. The higher BTC is 'priced', the greater the benefit to a consumption-based economy.

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As a total 'off to left field' sidebar, i recall reading that back in 2007/08 deposits from the illegal drug trade helped keep the USA banking system (a bit more) stable-ish. Right now the cannabis industry within the USA is Federally illegal so it does not have access to the Federal banking system. That's quite a bit of literal 'cash Dollars on the sidelines' right now.

Here's why I'm bringing this up.... Once Federal law allows all this currency to be deposited into Federal banks, that big influx of cash liquidity is not just 1:1, it will be fractionally reserved... which can help a consumption-based system if/as needed [(whispered)... during 2023]. Fully admit i have no clue the exact quantity of physical Dollar Bills being held by the cannabis industry, yet when multiplied / fractionally reserved, that's a lot of currency to (suddenly) add to an economy.

[JoeJoeBobo]

Originally Posted by Duey

As long as it's priced in Crypto and not USD yes it would.
But that's not how it's working people except Crypto converted to USD.

DavidSW excepts Crypto but how many watches on his site are priced in Bitcoin ???? ( The answer is ZERO ) - You have to convert to USD to buy

I am honestly with no malice feeling this last statement seems contradictory. By your analogy isn’t that still a USD purchase thus not accepting Cryto as he states?

A Cryto purchase to me would be accepting payment thru wallet or exchange based on USD value at time of transaction. Then seller converting the received Crypto on the other side when deemed appropriate.

[HHIslander]

Originally Posted by Mifune

TECHNICAL difficulties just when they were talking about Politics... ruh roh

Probably just some commingling.

He answered nothing in the worst possible way. His lawyers must be losing their minds.

[BroncoOne]

Originally Posted by BLACKHORSE 6

He must not have lawyered up yet. If he had, they wouldn’t let him do these interviews and answer these questions.

Not that he’s really answering them…

He’s trying to tip the “is he a criminal or an idiot?” question to idiot.
I don’t think that it’s going to work, but I get it.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Duey

As long as it's priced in Crypto and not USD yes it would.
But that's not how it's working people except Crypto converted to USD.

DavidSW excepts Crypto but how many watches on his site are priced in Bitcoin ???? ( The answer is ZERO ) - You have to convert to USD to buy

I’m curious if anyone here has bought a watch from DSW using crypto and how it was transacted.

[javier]

Warren Buffet has the right answer

[huncho]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I’m curious if anyone here has bought a watch from DSW using crypto and how it was transacted.

most likely its similar to crm. they have a bitpay wallet and you get an invoice with the address, send money to it then they convert it to usd and maybe keep a little bit of btc as an investment. sending btc takes minutes most of the time

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by huncho

most likely its similar to crm. they have a bitpay wallet and you get an invoice with the address, send money to it then they convert it to usd and maybe keep a little bit of btc as an investment

Admittedly not knowing much about this, how would he protect against the wild swings in the daily crypto price?

Maybe for folks like me who don’t understand this crypto stuff you could dumb it down

Using a watch that he’s selling for say $20K usd, am I correct in saying I’d pay him one Bitcoin and the extra in cash, or something like that?

I’m just trying to understand how it works is all. Thank you