32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by WatchMySix

- sky diving, mountaineering, and different forms of shooting, are some of the rougher activities I do with it. I'm in the army, and wear my sub everyday to work.

How long have you had your sub? Do you have or can you get access to a timegrapher? I am curious to see how your watch performs vs mine vs stated specs.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Now that I am done being shocked by how awesome Saxo3 is and how bad some of my watches are performing I have a question or two about warranty service.
Thank you very much for this appreciation.

Does Rolex consider a warranty event based on COSC +6/-4 range or do they consider a warranty event in their stated +2/-2 spec?
COSC is certainly a valid point you can use as an argument to request a check of your movement(s).

According to the timegrapher data, only your Day-Date 40 is outside of COSC specifications.

Rolex does not specify the accuracy but the precision of -2/+2 sec/day after casing.

Is that measured at full wind, 24 hr mark, or the average measurement over a period of time?
Is that based on the average of 5 positions at whatever point of measurement or do all 5 positions have to achieve a performance standard?
After full winding and for a period of 10 days with additional criteria.

Nobody is doing COSC tests with all their acceptance criteria.

Same basic question(s) in regards to amplitude. Is that an average over time, or at a particular point in time? What point in time or what average? Does each position have to achieve a specified amplitude or the average amplitude?
Unclear to me what you mean.

Amplitude values below 200 degrees are certainly a valid argument for guarantee work.

I do not know the official Rolex acceptance criteria for a movement warranty service.

Anyhow, I do know that RSC calls it movement control and NOT movement repair or movement service.

EasyE, do not get confused by several -2/+2 sec/day specs discussions you might find on the internet. This is a different and much more complex topic.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by WatchMySix

It's just mind boggling. You would think these movements endure years of R&D before they are market ready. I guess the real benefit for Rolex now is 90% of people aren't using these watches as true tools. The funny part is I am, and now that I can almost with certain say that my sub isn't +2/-2 seconds a day, I'm worried about the self proclaimed shock resistance.


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Practically speaking Rolex couldn't wait years to try and catch up to Omega. Besides, I'm not even sure what kind of accelerated wear tests they apply to components or whether it would be possible to identify the root cause of the issue with this movement series.
Personally I think it's an obscure issue that's directly related to the escapement which i don't think Rolex understands.
Omega were beating Rolex at every turn with improved magnetic resistance, improved accuracy or precision(or whatever one wants to spin it), longer(supposedly) advertised officially recommended service intervals and longer power reserves.

With all things considered throughout the entire watchmaking industry, the most abserd notion of a 10 year service interval really took the cake.
Rolex was getting way ahead of itself, especially given a number of these new movements are reportedly not getting outside of the warranty period before their first trip to RSC because they're often found to be lunching themselves. This is more or less, an industry first that Rolex can't possibly be proud of.
If it weren't for social media like these forums and dedicated threads such as this one to bring some focus on the issue, it would never see the light of day especially as they are bringing every avenue they can to restrict third party servicing. Eventually the only place one will be able to get them serviced will be a RSC so they can keep it all under wraps, nice and neat and tidy.

[WatchMySix]

Originally Posted by Easy E

How long have you had your sub? Do you have or can you get access to a timegrapher? I am curious to see how your watch performs vs mine vs stated specs.

I've had it since October 14th, 2022. I do not own a timegrapher but I plan on purchasing one now. I have a DJ36 too, and I want to track both the Sub and DJ's performance.

I will say, and I know this is totally unofficial (especially in this forum), I ran a little test on my Sub the other day. Full wound 3U for 12 hours, it lost ~1 second of time. Then I left it DU for 12 hours (without rewinding it), it gained ~2 seconds. I'm also very cognizant of my watches and my Sub at this moment in time (no pun intended) does seem to be keeping very good time and definitely adhering to it's ~72 hour power reserve.

Previously, I wore an Omega Seamaster 300 and it was no where near it's prescribed power reserve.


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by WatchMySix

I've had it since October 14th, 2022. I do not own a timegrapher but I plan on purchasing one now. I have a DJ36 too, and I want to track both the Sub and DJ's performance.

A good decision to measure your watches with your own timegrapher. It is important to do that correctly following a procedure. I recommend to read this thread starting from Nov 2022. It will avoid to repeat many posts how and what to measure.

Anyhow, I am looking forward to see your 32xx data from a watch purchased in 10/2022. That will be very interesting and should not show any sign of "weakness".

[Shakespace]

I bought a tt rootbeer at 2018 when it first came out, after a few months of wearing, i noticed the watch was 4-5 sec slow per day which is a huge shock to me cause i had a deepsea for about 10 years and that watch has been impeccable. then after 3 years, i trade in my tt with a top up for a full rosegold rootbeer thinking i might just be unlucky with the tt movement and the new watch would be fine, I was wrong! the same problem still exists! good thing is this watch is not a daily watch, but still a huge dissappointment. googled online about this issue and found this forum,hope it can be solved by rolex.

[Easy E]

I'm back, with fresh data. Currently I just have raw data in table form. Out of pure respect for CharlesN I won't post the table - hopefully the Graphmaster Sax will be along shortly. I Do have some interesting observations.

While I have not yet run actual power reserve tests it is my believe that the 70 HR stated power reserve is a joke. With the one exception of my BLNR (of the watches I have measured out to 60) the 32XX becomes utterly useless somewhere between 48 and 60 Hrs.

Attached is a pic of my 1900 reading the WG Sub at 60hrs, 3U position. Maybe my expectations need adjusting on what the power reserve really means, but given what I have seen, I would just as well prefer the watch stop completely at 48 and call it a day, or two day rather.

WG Sub at 60 hr 5 pos avg -42.44 spd, 225 amp
Oddly enough the amplitude on this watch went up at 60hr

BLRO at 60 hr 5 pos avg -12.56 spd, 147 amp
Overall this one performs fairly well

BLNR at 60 hr 5 pos avg -1spd, 174.2 amp
By far my best performing 32XX

DD40 at 60 hr 5 pos avg -26.12 spd, 147.4 amp

[Easy E]

Another point of interest. This will include a table just for CharlesN.

Before I set off on the 60hr journey with the BLRO and WG Sub the Sub had been worn for at least 8-10hrs a day for 3 out of 4 days 12/27, 12/28, 12/30, and maybe 3-4 hrs (no measurement) on 12/29. I wore the watch all day, came home, let it set for a good 10-15 minutes and took a reading.

Across those 4 days the final average numbers where good.
-.67 spd, 227 amplitude.

The amplitude is low but the spd is on point. That is a total combined avg of -.67 over 4 days of wear. Not bad.

[Easy E]

Also, another casual observation, maybe real data people can chime in on this one, but it appears that 9U is very demanding on the amplitude. Which seem a bit odd to me in that is the watch's natural position when you are standing.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

I'm back, with fresh data. Currently I just have raw data in table form. Out of pure respect for CharlesN I won't post the table - hopefully the Graphmaster Sax will be along shortly.

Please post the tables …

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Also, another casual observation, maybe real data people can chime in on this one, but it appears that 9U is very demanding on the amplitude. Which seem a bit odd to me in that is the watch's natural position when you are standing.

What?

[saxo3]

[saxo3]

[saxo3]

These are the results for all eight 32xx watches measured by EasyE.

Amplitude values for all horizontal (DU, DD) and vertical positions (9U, 6U, 3U) are summarized after full winding (t = 0) and 24 hours later (t = 24H).

24 hours after full winding 6 of the 8 watches have at least one vertical amplitude below 200 degrees.

Based on my experience at the RSC, this is sufficient to request a control (service, repair) of all 3235 and 3255 movements.

The 3285 of both GMT-Master II (126710BLNR, 126710BLRO) are good (still ok).

[saxo3]

The COSC acceptance criteria are MUCH more than -4 +6 s/d

[PekWatchGuy]

Easy E and saxo3 thank you for this info/data.

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Please post the tables …

As you requested

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

As you requested

Thanks, now Charles can continue his training to produce graphs with good data.

I can not explain why your two GMT-Master II (3285) from 2018/19 are (still) better than your other six watches (3235, 3255) from 2018/20/21. I have a few questions:

- Are you the first owner and bought all watches new?
- The GMT's never saw RSC or another watchmaker?
- How often do you wear all these watches individually?

Regardless of the technical aspect, the total price of your 8 watches is quite significant.

Prices in Switzerland 12/2022:
Datejust 41 TT: 12'900 CHF
Sea-Dweller: 12'300 CHF
Datejust 41: 7'500 CHF
Submariner: 9'600 CHF
Submariner WG: 38'800 CHF
Day-Date 40: 35'700 CHF
GMT-Master II: 10'200 CHF
GMT-Master II: 10'200 CHF
Sum: 137'200 CHF

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Thanks, now Charles can continue his training to produce graphs with good data.

I can not explain why your two GMT-Master II (3285) from 2018/19 are (still) better than your other six watches (3235, 3255) from 2018/20/21. I have a few questions:

- Are you the first owner and bought all watches new?
- The GMT's never saw RSC or another watchmaker?
- How often do you wear all these watches individually?

Regardless of the technical aspect, the total price of your 8 watches is quite significant.

Prices in Switzerland 12/2022:
Datejust 41 TT: 12'900 CHF
Sea-Dweller: 12'300 CHF
Datejust 41: 7'500 CHF
Submariner: 9'600 CHF
Submariner WG: 38'800 CHF
Day-Date 40: 35'700 CHF
GMT-Master II: 10'200 CHF
GMT-Master II: 10'200 CHF
Sum: 137'200 CHF

TTDJ41, BlueDJ41, BLRO, BLNR, 610LN Sub Date - all bought NIB from AD, I am the original owner.

The DD40, and 619LB Sub came from a TS - I have had them for just over 11 months now. The SD43 also came from a TS, but it was only a month old when I received it - card 2/11/2020, to me 3/21/2020.

The WG Sub and the DD40 get worn nearly everyday, maybe only 2-3 hrs when I get home from work and/or a couple hours on the weekend, the WG Sub will also get a full work day every other week or so also.

SD43 worn maybe 8-10hr straight once a week-ish
TTDJ41 - 8-12 hrs straight once a week
LN Sub and blue DJ41 don't get worn that often at all - maybe one work day a month

The BLNR gets worn one full work day maybe every other week, the BLRO is close to that, maybe a touch less. When I first purchased the BLRO I wore it a solid 10-12 hrs a day every other day for a good year and a half.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

TTDJ41, BlueDJ41, BLRO, BLNR, 610LN Sub Date - all bought NIB from AD, I am the original owner.

The DD40, and 619LB Sub came from a TS - I have had them for just over 11 months now. The SD43 also came from a TS, but it was only a month old when I received it - card 2/11/2020, to me 3/21/2020.

Thanks, from your description I can not derive why the two GMT's should be better than the rest.

What is a "TS"?

I understand that none of these 32xx watches had ever been opened under your ownership?

Another question: when you measured these watches on your timegrapher did they all have ambient temperature? Where some warmer or colder during your timegrapher measurements?

[Easy E]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Thanks, from your description I can not derive why the two GMT's should be better than the rest.

What is a "TS"?

TS - Trusted Seller, two well known greys that frequent TRF

I understand that none of these 32xx watches had ever been opened under your ownership?


Correct, I have neither the tools nor inclination to open these guys up. Meter, screwdrivers and spring bar tools only.

Another question: when you measured these watches on your timegrapher did they all have ambient temperature? Where some warmer or colder during your timegrapher measurements?

All readings @ 70f more or less, room temp

answers in red

[Easy E]

Saxo3, do you have any insight on why the amplitude went up so much @ 60hr on my 126619LB WG Sub? That also doesn't match the other watches that I have measured.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Saxo3, do you have any insight on why the amplitude went up so much @ 60hr on my 126619LB WG Sub? That also doesn't match the other watches that I have measured.

Yes. It is not a permanent amplitude increase but an oscillation between high and low values. This is an unstable caliber situation.

For your WG Submariner it is visible for all 3 vertical positions.
The effect started at some time between 48 and 60 hours after full winding (see graph below).

You do not have enough data points to see the frequent increases and decreases but you probably saw changing amplitude values on your timegrapher readings.

These high amplitudes are not a measurement error of your timegrapher.
You also measured this amplitude rise for your DD40 (228238), in 6U position at 60 hours, see my graphs in post 3381.

You can find a few examples of these oscillations in this thread, measured with a very high sampling rate for 32xx calibers in DU position.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by WatchMySix

I own a 126610LV and a 126231, obviously both with 32XX movements. I've seen with my naked eye a 'loss of time' after days of wear, but never officially tested. I'm going to test and report back.

Originally Posted by WatchMySix

I've had it since October 14th, 2022. I do not own a timegrapher but I plan on purchasing one now.

Originally Posted by saxo3

I am looking forward to see your 32xx data from a watch purchased in 10/2022. That will be very interesting and should not show any sign of "weakness".

Did you already buy a timegrapher?

[WatchMySix]

I haven't, but will. Weishi 1900 is the best bang for your buck, correct?


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by WatchMySix

I haven't, but will. Weishi 1900 is the best bang for your buck, correct?

Yes, good amateur device

[CedCraig]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Rolex state the The PRECISION is +/-2 seconds per day.

Thats NOT the ACCURACY .... IMHO Rolex have done a marketing trick to confuse people. They also seem to have "Got away with it".

Really? So if a 32xx lemon is running -22spd/-18spd, i.e., +/-2spd around -20spd “accuracy” Rolex will consider that to meet its guarantee?

Sure, Rolex use the term “Precision” but the context is +/-2 precision around accuracy of zero spd.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by CedCraig

Really? So if a 32xx lemon is running -22spd/-18spd, i.e., +/-2spd around -20spd “accuracy” Rolex will consider that to meet its guarantee?
Sure, Rolex use the term “Precision” but the context is +/-2 precision around accuracy of zero spd.

Yet again we come back to the difference between PRECISION and ACCURACY.

They are NOT the same. This has been well explained and demonstrated earlier in this thread.

And as to your suggestion of 20 seconds per day error and around that area of course Rolex will NOT even suggest that is good.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Easy E

Another point of interest. This will include a table just for CharlesN.

Before I set off on the 60hr journey with the BLRO and WG Sub the Sub had been worn for at least 8-10hrs a day for 3 out of 4 days 12/27, 12/28, 12/30, and maybe 3-4 hrs (no measurement) on 12/29. I wore the watch all day, came home, let it set for a good 10-15 minutes and took a reading.

Across those 4 days the final average numbers where good.
-.67 spd, 227 amplitude.

The amplitude is low but the spd is on point. That is a total combined avg of -.67 over 4 days of wear. Not bad.

But there was no guarantee it was fully wound prior to testing if it was coming off your wrist instead of being hand wound. Were the others you tested similar or hand wound until full prior to testing?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

But there was no guarantee it was fully wound prior to testing if it was coming off your wrist instead of being hand wound. Were the others you tested similar or hand wound until full prior to testing?

You still make no attempt to reasonably answer the question I had asked you two weeks ago?

What happened to your 3230 watch since April 2022?

Instead you come back as if nothing had happened except your evasive cheap answers?

Take care

Originally Posted by saxo3

I had a quick read through all of your 150 posts since August 2021 in this thread.

Only in a few posts you reported about your Explorer 124270 (caliber 3230) bought in May 2021.

The timekeeping seemed to be stable and then started to degrade a bit.

In April 2022 the timekeeping of your 3230 was -5 s/d and the amplitude "lowish 241" (your post 2385)

https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...postcount=2385

From May 2021 to April 2022 the movement had degraded significantly.

What happened to your 3230 watch since April?

Originally Posted by dannyp

Different watch.

Originally Posted by saxo3

What? I asked what happened to your 3230 watch since April 2022.

Originally Posted by dannyp

No longer have that watch, I'm talking about a different one, which I've had for about 5mos and also has a 3230.

Originally Posted by saxo3

Understood.

It would be interesting to get some more technical information about this first watch (bought in May 2021) because 3230 issue reports are rare.

Did it further degrade in rates and amplitudes? You have some numbers?

Did you sell this watch before or after RSC repair?

You own a timegrapher now or consider to buy one for the 3230 watch you have since 5 months?