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JohnnyHathoway · 9 April 2012, 02:34 AM

Im in the process of saving for my second Rolex. Decided to go vintage and narrowed my search down to a 5513 or 1680 red. There's a decent price difference so I'll probably get the 5513 first and hold off on the 1680.

During my searches, I sometimes come across vintage pieces with the lume washed off. I haven't been able to find much discussion on this topic and I'm curious as to how this negatively affects the value of the watch.

Im also curious why meters first tend to sell for less than their feet first counterparts. The only conclusion i can come up with is that the meters first watches tend to be in worse shape than the feet first because they're older.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

pusscadour · 9 April 2012, 05:28 AM

Hi,

Everything I know about vintage 5513's has been taken from what I've read in this forum as well as what's on my wrist, but hopefully I can put it in brief for you.
If you see a dial where the lume has washed off, probably it's had some water damage in the past and you should stay away from it. Flaking of the edge of the lume is quite normal though especially on the 60's models.
The patina however is another thing and down to personal taste, some like more yellow, some more white. The main thing to watch out for is the patina being the same colour across the dial, hands and pearl.
The 60's gloss dials seem to yellow more, whereas the 70's matt go more of an off white. If the watch comes from a life in the sun, that also seems to yellow the tritium a little more.

On the meters first thing, from what I know the meters first are the more popular and seen as more rare as all Rolex now are ft first. Then again, for the vintage 5513 there seem to be a lot less available with ft first. Nearly every late 60's - early 70's 5513 I see for sale is meters first.

I think the cheapest option for a 5513 would be a ft first matt dial from between 71 - 73. The cool thing with this is it's the same 5513 as James Bond!

Good luck with the hunt!

bertberr · 9 April 2012, 05:19 PM

I'll second much of that said above, particularly with regard to steering clear of 'washed dial' examples, unless the price really reflects this.

Re patina though, it is my understanding that the more bleaching the lume / hands have had due to sun etc, the more white they'll be. Conversely, if it's been locked in a safe for 35 years, expect it to be a rich yellow, almost orange colour.

MF dials are much rarer than FF dials, and as such command a small premium, but as ever, buy on condition first. Of course, I'm excluding MF Gilts from this as they are a dial in their own right and as such command a significant premium. Really (and I'm being very rough with my dates here!), MF mattes ran from c. 1966/7 to c. 1969, after which the matte FF took over and ran to about '82/83, albeit as the Maxi dial for the last 5 yrs or so.

To put that into context from a serial no. perspective, I had a 1.7m MF, and still have a 2.4m FF. Good luck with your search.

JohnnyHathoway · 10 April 2012, 02:09 AM

Thank you for your insight!

I agree that gilt dial 5513's are special in their own right and I'm not including them in my hunt for several reasons, price being the main one. It seems logical that the MF would fetch a higher premium based on it's rarity, but then again there are many out there. I don't have exact figures, but it seems a little less than 50% are MF and most seem to go for less than $5k while early 80's FF matte seem to go for $5k+ then drop again when the glossy WG surrounds come into play. The prices I'm quoting are examples without boxes, papers, etc. I know the price goes up with accessories. That being said, I've found very few MF that seem to be in as good condition as most of the early 80's FF. Of course, my sample is only based on what's been available the past two or three months on TRF, VRF and TZ.

I'll steer clear of the washed dials. Usually the price is a good amount less when I see them, but I'm in it for a real nice piece that's as close to it's original glory as I can get. I'm leaning from bright white to a light creamy patina and I definitely want the hands and dial to match. I'm a little less picky regarding the pearl, especially since most original inserts are missing them.

Thanks again for your time, these were some great responses.

pusscadour · 10 April 2012, 05:27 AM

Here's my 1972 5513 258**** serial that my dad kindly left to me. I'd always loved it but appreciate it more from what I've learnt on this forum.

Hope you find what you're looking for.

s4dan · 10 April 2012, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pusscadour

Here's my 1972 5513 258**** serial that my dad kindly left to me. I'd always loved it but appreciate it more from what I've learnt on this forum.

Hope you find what you're looking for.

Absolutely gorgeous 5513

JohnnyHathoway · 10 April 2012, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pusscadour

Here's my 1972 5513 258**** serial that my dad kindly left to me. I'd always loved it but appreciate it more from what I've learnt on this forum.

Hope you find what you're looking for.

Wow! What a stunner. I just hope I come across such a beauty.

Kingair · 10 April 2012, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyHathoway

Wow! What a stunner. I just hope I come across such a beauty.

Me to . . .

Congrats - gorgeous Rolex

pusscadour · 10 April 2012, 09:29 PM

Thanks for the nice comments, my dad would be proud!
I can´t wait until I get the money together for a Rolex service and Michael Young bracelet rebuild. She should look and behave as good as new after that.

MP5 · 10 April 2012, 09:47 PM

There is something special about perfect limes dial but if it has any flaking at all I prefer washed. I do not like the idea of a deteriorating dial and the crap getting in the movt. When it's starting to flake there is no stopping it. If you are going to wear and enjoy these vintages best not invest in a real museum piece

Keeperoftime · 10 April 2012, 10:01 PM

I think the cheapest option for a 5513 would be a ft first matte dial from between 71 - 73. The cool thing with this is it's the same 5513 as James Bond!

Good luck with the hunt![/QUOTE]

+1

I think you should continue on with your research. You will most likely pick up some more tips and dial variations to look for. If I were in the market for a 5513, I would look for a "Pre-Comex"

These are most often found on watches from approx: 1977-1978

I think these are under the radar (many sellers do not appreciate or notice this)

In any event, look these up

JohnnyHathoway · 24 April 2012, 11:46 AM

Wow! You weren't kidding about the pre-comex. I came across this post by nbtimes on vrf: http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...513+Submariner.

I'm really enjoying the research/hunt. Thanks again for all the info and advice.

Warnsboy · 24 April 2012, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyHathoway

Wow! You weren't kidding about the pre-comex. I came across this post by nbtimes on vrf: http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...513+Submariner.

I'm really enjoying the research/hunt. Thanks again for all the info and advice.

My pre-comex with its nicely faded insert...5.26 mil S/N...It very much has my heart. It's hard to take off when I shouldn't be wearing it and equalliy hard not to look at when I am. Macros included.

Good luck with your search

JohnnyHathoway · 24 April 2012, 09:23 PM

Very nice! I see you got it from Jacek too. My hope is that when I make the acquisition it'll be from him.

9 April 2012, 02:34 AM	#1
JohnnyHathoway "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Real Name: Marcus Location: Alexandria, VA Watch: 5512TheRealMcQueen Posts: 57	Lume washed off dial Im in the process of saving for my second Rolex. Decided to go vintage and narrowed my search down to a 5513 or 1680 red. There's a decent price difference so I'll probably get the 5513 first and hold off on the 1680. During my searches, I sometimes come across vintage pieces with the lume washed off. I haven't been able to find much discussion on this topic and I'm curious as to how this negatively affects the value of the watch. Im also curious why meters first tend to sell for less than their feet first counterparts. The only conclusion i can come up with is that the meters first watches tend to be in worse shape than the feet first because they're older. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

10 April 2012, 05:27 AM	#5
pusscadour Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Madrid Posts: 34	I love to show her off. Here's my 1972 5513 258**** serial that my dad kindly left to me. I'd always loved it but appreciate it more from what I've learnt on this forum. Hope you find what you're looking for.

10 April 2012, 10:01 PM	#11
Keeperoftime "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Real Name: Jeremy Location: Louisiana Watch: Rolex Posts: 2,732	I think the cheapest option for a 5513 would be a ft first matte dial from between 71 - 73. The cool thing with this is it's the same 5513 as James Bond! Good luck with the hunt![/QUOTE] +1 I think you should continue on with your research. You will most likely pick up some more tips and dial variations to look for. If I were in the market for a 5513, I would look for a "Pre-Comex" These are most often found on watches from approx: 1977-1978 I think these are under the radar (many sellers do not appreciate or notice this) In any event, look these up __________________ As a man is, so he sees. As the eye is formed, such are its powers. William Blake

9 April 2012, 05:28 AM	#2
pusscadour Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Madrid Posts: 34	Hi, Everything I know about vintage 5513's has been taken from what I've read in this forum as well as what's on my wrist, but hopefully I can put it in brief for you. If you see a dial where the lume has washed off, probably it's had some water damage in the past and you should stay away from it. Flaking of the edge of the lume is quite normal though especially on the 60's models. The patina however is another thing and down to personal taste, some like more yellow, some more white. The main thing to watch out for is the patina being the same colour across the dial, hands and pearl. The 60's gloss dials seem to yellow more, whereas the 70's matt go more of an off white. If the watch comes from a life in the sun, that also seems to yellow the tritium a little more. On the meters first thing, from what I know the meters first are the more popular and seen as more rare as all Rolex now are ft first. Then again, for the vintage 5513 there seem to be a lot less available with ft first. Nearly every late 60's - early 70's 5513 I see for sale is meters first. I think the cheapest option for a 5513 would be a ft first matt dial from between 71 - 73. The cool thing with this is it's the same 5513 as James Bond! Good luck with the hunt!

9 April 2012, 05:19 PM	#3
bertberr "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: UK Posts: 233	I'll second much of that said above, particularly with regard to steering clear of 'washed dial' examples, unless the price really reflects this. Re patina though, it is my understanding that the more bleaching the lume / hands have had due to sun etc, the more white they'll be. Conversely, if it's been locked in a safe for 35 years, expect it to be a rich yellow, almost orange colour. MF dials are much rarer than FF dials, and as such command a small premium, but as ever, buy on condition first. Of course, I'm excluding MF Gilts from this as they are a dial in their own right and as such command a significant premium. Really (and I'm being very rough with my dates here!), MF mattes ran from c. 1966/7 to c. 1969, after which the matte FF took over and ran to about '82/83, albeit as the Maxi dial for the last 5 yrs or so. To put that into context from a serial no. perspective, I had a 1.7m MF, and still have a 2.4m FF. Good luck with your search.

10 April 2012, 02:09 AM	#4
JohnnyHathoway "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Real Name: Marcus Location: Alexandria, VA Watch: 5512TheRealMcQueen Posts: 57	Thank you for your insight! I agree that gilt dial 5513's are special in their own right and I'm not including them in my hunt for several reasons, price being the main one. It seems logical that the MF would fetch a higher premium based on it's rarity, but then again there are many out there. I don't have exact figures, but it seems a little less than 50% are MF and most seem to go for less than $5k while early 80's FF matte seem to go for $5k+ then drop again when the glossy WG surrounds come into play. The prices I'm quoting are examples without boxes, papers, etc. I know the price goes up with accessories. That being said, I've found very few MF that seem to be in as good condition as most of the early 80's FF. Of course, my sample is only based on what's been available the past two or three months on TRF, VRF and TZ. I'll steer clear of the washed dials. Usually the price is a good amount less when I see them, but I'm in it for a real nice piece that's as close to it's original glory as I can get. I'm leaning from bright white to a light creamy patina and I definitely want the hands and dial to match. I'm a little less picky regarding the pearl, especially since most original inserts are missing them. Thanks again for your time, these were some great responses.

10 April 2012, 09:29 PM	#9
pusscadour Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Madrid Posts: 34	Thanks for the nice comments, my dad would be proud! I can´t wait until I get the money together for a Rolex service and Michael Young bracelet rebuild. She should look and behave as good as new after that.

10 April 2012, 09:47 PM	#10
MP5 2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 X2 Pledge Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: ATX Posts: 2,883	There is something special about perfect limes dial but if it has any flaking at all I prefer washed. I do not like the idea of a deteriorating dial and the crap getting in the movt. When it's starting to flake there is no stopping it. If you are going to wear and enjoy these vintages best not invest in a real museum piece

24 April 2012, 11:46 AM	#12
JohnnyHathoway "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Real Name: Marcus Location: Alexandria, VA Watch: 5512TheRealMcQueen Posts: 57	Wow! You weren't kidding about the pre-comex. I came across this post by nbtimes on vrf: http://www.network54.com/Forum/20767...513+Submariner. I'm really enjoying the research/hunt. Thanks again for all the info and advice.

24 April 2012, 09:23 PM	#14
JohnnyHathoway "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Real Name: Marcus Location: Alexandria, VA Watch: 5512TheRealMcQueen Posts: 57	Very nice! I see you got it from Jacek too. My hope is that when I make the acquisition it'll be from him.

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