Patek seal vs Geneva seal - Quality?

[de66]

First off: I love my 5726 and so far have not had any faults that I have noticed or am aware of.

However, like many other friends here on TRF, we have witnessed an increase of reported issues.

Much has been said about the topic of QC at Patek and Mr. Stern's focus.

Patek Philippe has stopped using the Geneva Seal and created their own Patek Philippe seal because they feel their watches surpass the quality processess of this collective.
In light of the increased reported issues, one could think this not to be the case.

The following thoughts popped into my head:

What if PP was already aware of their slipping QC before the decision to stop using the Geneva Seal?

Maybe the Geneva Seal organization was also aware of this and it could very well be that it wasnt Patek's choice to leave the Geneva Seal?

With the increased production the QC appeared to be slipping at PP, ostensibly indicated by the increased reports of our fellow owners reporting here on TRF

In order to maintain and/or restore our confidence, it would be great to know how these issues reflect on the total production of PP as a percentage: although we see an increased number of reports, has the ratio of faults remained the same?




Please share your thoughts!

I still think Patek is a strong brand and for a family business is doing one helluva job. Lets try to restore the shine for those with less favorable experiences.



D

[subtona]

Interesting points for sure.

I suppose it all comes down to money,
increased production + in house certification = drop in quality

[mfer]

Man, if that is the case, this is a way to not run a company built high haute horology.

I can't believe it to be true. This would be like the Titanic captain saying "Yes, I see the bloody iceberg, but I'm gonna ram it anyway."

[de66]

Originally Posted by mfer

Man, if that is the case, this is a way to not run a company built high haute horology.

I can't believe it to be true. This would be like the Titanic captain saying "Yes, I see the bloody iceberg, but I'm gonna ram it anyway."

Just look how they handled their pricing policies since february 11th....

Mr. Stern: feel free to return that captains costume to the rental agency any time

[incontrol]

I believe they are attempting to do too much without having enough qualified people and so cracks begin to appear in what is otherwise a solid company. Maybe production numbers are too high, maybe performing their own certifications (Patek seal) has diluted the qualified work force and the results are beginning to show.

In the end, this is all conjecture as none of us know the issues within Patek Philippe. Hopefully, if the problem is not enough qualified employees, in time the newer employees will become the qualified staff and the ship will be righted. The real question is how long will this take?

[Hairdude1]

Interesting view

[vintage69]

I remind you that the Geneva Seal was forced to update their requirements when Patek left them.

[lmcgbaj]

So what is the deal with the Patek seal? First of all, in order to submit a watch for the Geneva Seal, the watch had to be assembled and regulated in the city or canton of Geneva.

Geneva seal - Look-up Wikipedia.

Patek Philippe stopped using the Geneva Seal because its workshops are in different cantons (Vaud and Neuchatel). The reason Patek chose those locations was because of highly skilled watchmakers availability in the area. Patek would have needed to send the watch to be finished by someone else in Geneva in order to be able to apply for the Geneva Seal. That was not efficient and practical. Then Patek came up with a story (better standards, bla bla bla...) to make it look better for advertising so its win-win.

There is no big mystery or plot here folks.

[iazrollie]

Originally Posted by incontrol

I believe they are attempting to do too much without having enough qualified people and so cracks begin to appear in what is otherwise a solid company. Maybe production numbers are too high, maybe performing their own certifications (Patek seal) has diluted the qualified work force and the results are beginning to show.

In the end, this is all conjecture as none of us know the issues within Patek Philippe. Hopefully, if the problem is not enough qualified employees, in time the newer employees will become the qualified staff and the ship will be righted. The real question is how long will this take?

With the Chinese and Russian slowdowns, maybe production can be ratcheted down to a more manageable level.

[incontrol]

Originally Posted by iazrollie

With the Chinese and Russian slowdowns, maybe production can be ratcheted down to a more manageable level.

Great point, Ian! I had not thought of this.

[kilyung]

And we never landed on the moon...

[SubKing]

With patek having their own in house certifications, who is to say they are meeting their own requirements? They can pass every watch if they want regardless if their requirements were met or not...

[fmc000]

Patek stopped using the Geneva deal because they couldn't use it with their new production, period. Their new seal is just marketing, so they can say "we have something like that too".

[dom007]

Originally Posted by kilyung

And we never landed on the moon...

[de66]

Originally Posted by incontrol

I believe they are attempting to do too much without having enough qualified people and so cracks begin to appear in what is otherwise a solid company. Maybe production numbers are too high, maybe performing their own certifications (Patek seal) has diluted the qualified work force and the results are beginning to show.

In the end, this is all conjecture as none of us know the issues within Patek Philippe. Hopefully, if the problem is not enough qualified employees, in time the newer employees will become the qualified staff and the ship will be righted. The real question is how long will this take?

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by Hairdude1

Interesting view

And thats all it is, just another view... :-)

Originally Posted by vintage69

I remind you that the Geneva Seal was forced to update their requirements when Patek left them.

by whom? And why exactly?

Originally Posted by lmcgbaj

So what is the deal with the Patek seal? First of all, in order to submit a watch for the Geneva Seal, the watch had to be assembled and regulated in the city or canton of Geneva.

Geneva seal - Look-up Wikipedia.

Patek Philippe stopped using the Geneva Seal because its workshops are in different cantons (Vaud and Neuchatel). The reason Patek chose those locations was because of highly skilled watchmakers availability in the area. Patek would have needed to send the watch to be finished by someone else in Geneva in order to be able to apply for the Geneva Seal. That was not efficient and practical. Then Patek came up with a story (better standards, bla bla bla...) to make it look better for advertising so its win-win.

There is no big mystery or plot here folks.

Exactly. They should not have to come up "with a story". Not with their history and products which should speak for themselves. That was the reason why bought mine in the first place: authenticity.

And where did you find info that Patek workshops are located in canton vaud and neuchatel? Had that been the case they would never have qualified for the Geneva Seal in the first place.
Patek claims all workshops to be in canton geneve and everything done to meet the requirements was done in Plans-les-Ouates, right next door to geneva city.
I would welcome more info on this, just to know how much manufacturing is actually done in which location. Interesting topic

Originally Posted by kilyung

And we never landed on the moon...

who was it then?? Oh wait, must have been the Dutch, the inventors of the USA

Originally Posted by SubKing

With patek having their own in house certifications, who is to say they are meeting their own requirements? They can pass every watch if they want regardless if their requirements were met or not...

Another interesting view!

Originally Posted by fmc000

Patek stopped using the Geneva deal because they couldn't use it with their new production, period. Their new seal is just marketing, so they can say "we have something like that too".

And this is because...?

For the Geneva Seal to lose one of its biggest proponents, is a HUGE deal.
Patek is not a brand that needs to resort to "just marketing" imo.

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by de66

And this is because...?

For the Geneva Seal to lose one of its biggest proponents, is a HUGE deal.
Patek is not a brand that needs to resort to "just marketing" imo.

It has been written already in the thread and you're actually quoting the reason in your post. It's because the first rule for a watch to sport the Geneva seal is that it must be at least assembled and finished within the "Canton de Genéve", whilst the Patek Philippe watches are made also in La-Chaux-de-Fonds, Canton de Neuchâtel. It's simple as that.

[Racerdj]

I guess I still have my blinders on. I almost did not post my calendar issue. I knew before I bought both 5980's there might be a problem. Most of us do not post the flawless way our watches run. If this is not the case, I hope PP is analyzing their warranty repair cases and will try to correct and minimize.

[Hamish]

For what it is worth I don't think PP are cutting any corners.
Their products like all products can have issues however at this price point people expect perfection and justifiably so. Unfortunately with the Internet and any online forum what we are really talking about (in reality) is a very small sample size of vocal complaints. I suppose what I am trying to say is that production problems, faults etc can be amplified to appear much bigger than they actually are!
Just my two cents

[RussW]

Originally Posted by kilyung

And we never landed on the moon...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Hamish

For what it is worth I don't think PP are cutting any corners.
Their products like all products can have issues however at this price point people expect perfection and justifiably so. Unfortunately with the Internet and any online forum what we are really talking about (in reality) is a very small sample size of vocal complaints. I suppose what I am trying to say is that production problems, faults etc can be amplified to appear much bigger than they actually are!
Just my two cents

But in my mind, the faults we spot are because we are purists, obsessed with collecting and perfection in general. I have said it before that imperfections we notice, the normal "joe" who buys a patek might never notice or care if they did notice. So we will never know truly how many are out there that have these QC issues.

[de66]

Originally Posted by fmc000

It has been written already in the thread and you're actually quoting the reason in your post. It's because the first rule for a watch to sport the Geneva seal is that it must be at least assembled and finished within the "Canton de Genéve", whilst the Patek Philippe watches are made also in La-Chaux-de-Fonds, Canton de Neuchâtel. It's simple as that.

The reason I asked you again is because Patek produces their watches in their "new" faclility in the Canton de Geneve. To the best of my knowledge production facilities in other cantons are used to manufacture parts, sertissage and finishing/polishing of already produced watches. I was unable to find any clearly sourced information that says different, but that does not guarantee my info in this case to be correct.

[Passionata]

Originally Posted by subtona

Interesting points for sure.

I suppose it all comes down to money,
increased production + in house certification = drop in quality

Adding ,companies with such a reputation thinks they can comfortably low their quality standards since ppl don t care.

[vintage69]

Originally Posted by de66

Absolutely!



And thats all it is, just another view... :-)



by whom? And why exactly?



Exactly. They should not have to come up "with a story". Not with their history and products which should speak for themselves. That was the reason why bought mine in the first place: authenticity.

And where did you find info that Patek workshops are located in canton vaud and neuchatel? Had that been the case they would never have qualified for the Geneva Seal in the first place.
Patek claims all workshops to be in canton geneve and everything done to meet the requirements was done in Plans-les-Ouates, right next door to geneva city.
I would welcome more info on this, just to know how much manufacturing is actually done in which location. Interesting topic


who was it then?? Oh wait, must have been the Dutch, the inventors of the USA



Another interesting view!



And this is because...?

For the Geneva Seal to lose one of its biggest proponents, is a HUGE deal.
Patek is not a brand that needs to resort to "just marketing" imo.

The Geneva Seal originally only referred to the movement. Today it applies to the total watch

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by de66

The reason I asked you again is because Patek produces their watches in their "new" facility in the Canton de Geneve. To the best of my knowledge production facilities in other cantons are used to manufacture parts, sertissage and finishing/polishing of already produced watches. I was unable to find any clearly sourced information that says different, but that does not guarantee my info in this case to be correct.

Quoting the webpage I linked in my post:

Nearly all calibre components are made in this new building and all machines are now ideally organized on a same floor. More than ten million of components are made each just for the Patek Philippe calibres.

Maybe the calibers arrive in Plan-de-Ouates already finished and assembled and therefore the final watch would not comply to the Poincon de Genève rules, I don't know. All I remember is that when PP first announced their new seal here in Italy the word on the watch forums was about the possibility that they could not use the Geneva seal and therefore they decided to make their own.

[de66]

Originally Posted by fmc000

Quoting the webpage I linked in my post:

Maybe the calibers arrive in Plan-de-Ouates already finished and assembled and therefore the final watch would not comply to the Poincon de Genève rules, I don't know. All I remember is that when PP first announced their new seal here in Italy the word on the watch forums was about the possibility that they could not use the Geneva seal and therefore they decided to make their own.

Interesting info, thx Fabio. I had heard/read mainly info which was indicating more that PP were unhappy with deteriorating standards of the seal, that there were too many producers using it and it was losing its meaning and exclusivity. It was always maintained that Geneva as the place of origin for Patek watches was paramount.

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by de66

It was always maintained that Geneva as the place of origin for Patek watches was paramount.

It's not different for Rolex, which has four main sites and one of them is in canton Bern.

• GE - Acacias: HQ, R&D, assembly, testing
• GE - Plan Les Ouates: gold foundry(!), cases and bracelets;
• GE - Chêne-Bourg: dials and stone setting;
• Bienne: movements.

But for everyone it's just "Rolex, Genève"

[wisguy]

No brand is ever flawless, in any category, not just watches.

Enjoy your PPs and if something goes wrong take them in and they will sort out for you, only downside is the wait.

But I bet most PP owners own more than one watch.

As I work in the auto industry, here's a tip for PP, loaner watches!

[codecow]

Originally Posted by SubKing

But in my mind, the faults we spot are because we are purists, obsessed with collecting and perfection in general. I have said it before that imperfections we notice, the normal "joe" who buys a patek might never notice or care if they did notice. So we will never know truly how many are out there that have these QC issues.

I think even Joe 6 pack will notice a sticking date.