Is there a brand that you think is superior to Patek Philippe?

[Dancing Fire]

Lange produces about 6,000 watches per yr. and PP produces about 30,000 mechanicals per yr. ..IMO, Lange is finished at a higher level for the same amount spent vs a PP.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Dancing Fire

Lange produces about 6,000 watches per yr. and PP produces about 30,000 mechanicals per yr. ..IMO, Lange is finished at a higher level for the same amount spent vs a PP.

And FPJ produces 850 so using your logic will better than ALS and PP

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by josephashburnnn

Resale value of a watch/brand is not set by the people in this forum. A brand will only have strong resale when it is recognised and perceived by everybody as very prestigious, wanted by everybody, tom dick and harry. AL&S and FPJ ain't such a brand.

My apology....when I last checked I was a consumer and my behaviour and people with similar behaviours determine resale values!

[Dancing Fire]

Originally Posted by KarlS

I kind of think ALS is also a one model brand. The Datograph is a forum favourite and the AC and PC in the Saxonia range you can't give away!!! So we have a brand that everyone e says has the finest finish and yet the worse resale! The resale is set by people like ourselves who buy preened do we obviously aren't talking with our wallets. I would like an ALS at some stage but still feel it's like a hockey puck on the arm and lacks some of the finesse of a PP. I would like a FPJ PC before Pp and ALS but also can't quite get my mind to accept the huge drop in value once it leaves the AD! PP gives some comfort in that regards

I think PP and Lange PC/AC sell for approx the same price (within 5 yrs old watches) in the pre-owned market. There are a lot more PP PC/AC for sale in the pre-owned market compared to Lange.

[Dancing Fire]

Originally Posted by KarlS

And FPJ produces 850 so using your logic will better than ALS and PP

But FPJ is an independent watchmaker?

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Dancing Fire

I think PP and Lange PC/AC sell for approx the same price (within 5 yrs old watches) in the pre-owned market. There are a lot more PP PC/AC for sale in the pre-owned market compared to Lange.

I think with a bit of research you will find that ALS has a significantly worse pre owned value and that is taken as a given!

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by Dancing Fire

Lange produces about 6,000 watches per yr. and PP produces about 30,000 mechanicals per yr. ..IMO, Lange is finished at a higher level for the same amount spent vs a PP.

Those numbers are way off — 10K and 60K respectively, although I'd been informed Patek was nearer 80K.

[Dancing Fire]

Originally Posted by PJ S

Those numbers are way off — 10K and 60K respectively, although I'd been informed Patek was nearer 80K.

Not true , most estimate are closer to 6,000-6,500 pieces for Lange and 30-32K pieces for PP mechanicals not including quartz watches.

[Dancing Fire]

Originally Posted by KarlS

I think with a bit of research you will find that ALS has a significantly worse pre owned value and that is taken as a given!

You can buy a nice pre-owned 5146 AC for < $29K but not a pre-owned Lange AC

[martinr]

Karl, you're wasting your time with this guy, he's going to say the opposite of what everyone knows is a fact, Patek resale value is much better than ALS. Who knows why he's even in the Patek sub forum.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by Dancing Fire

You can buy a nice pre-owned 5146 AC for < $29K but not a pre-owned Lange AC

Does the PP 5270 sell pre owned for 55-65% of it's price? Because the Lange Datograph perpetual, which I love, sure does, everyone knows that PP keeps much better value than Lange on the average, if you don't know that look online, Chrono 24 is a good place to start...

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by Dancing Fire

Not true , most estimate are closer to 6,000-6,500 pieces for Lange and 30-32K pieces for PP mechanicals not including quartz watches.

Missed the mechanical part of your comment.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by martinr

Karl, you're wasting your time with this guy, he's going to say the opposite of what everyone knows is a fact, Patek resale value is much better than ALS. Who knows why he's even in the Patek sub forum.

Will have to agree with you and I just can't face going through a whole story on what the actual production numbers are at PP and sherher Thierry is lying through his teeth or not. If I had a dollar for every time this was raised, whether ALS had better finishing that PP or is a watchwinder bad for your watch, or whether PP QC are crap...I would have bought a 5207 by now!

[Maltie]

Originally Posted by perpetualman88

Philippe Dufour finishing is the best IMO

And Philippe has a A. Lange & Söhne Datograph, do I need to say more.....

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Maltie

And Philippe has a A. Lange & Söhne Datograph, do I need to say more.....

Sigh ....and Roger Smith wears an Omega and Dufour bought his over 10 years ago and says the current ALS is over stylised....do we really have to go down this route every time?

[fmc000]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Sigh ....and Roger Smith wears an Omega and Dufour bought his over 10 years ago and says the current ALS is over stylised....do we really have to go down this route every time?

At SalonQP in 2015 Roger Smith was wearing an Explorer I.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by fmc000

At SalonQP in 2015 Roger Smith was wearing an Explorer I.

Good...that makes 2 non ALS watches that he doesn't own!!

[Vipes]

Interesting debate between Patek and Lange. I have both in my collection but I can tell you from experience that it is harder to sell a Lange on the secondary market. Lange also takes a bigger hit compared to Patek.

[JorgeCCW]

When big money is expended in a watch I feel much better if I know that the brand has the biggest demand with as little loss as possible. Because even if you buy at the right price , I still need to know that the brand is highly desirable.

Now if money is not a concern (because u have lots and don't care of potential losses) you can have the luxury to dgaf of how the brand is perceived and just spend freely.


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[belligero]

Originally Posted by fmc000

At SalonQP in 2015 Roger Smith was wearing an Explorer I.

Indeed, he's had some nice things to say about that watch.

Since we're on the topic, that Omega of his is a 1967 model with a lovely cal. 321 Lemania movement. I don't know any watchmakers who wear modern Omega by choice. :)

[jrs146]

Originally Posted by RUK

Superior can be in different aspects

Movement finishing - Independents/ FPJ/ALS/ others are superior to PP
Value for money in horology - JLC is superior to PP
Value retention and collectability - Patek is superior to others
Daily wear and serviceability - Rolex is superior PP

This about sums it up for me.

[Samui]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Sigh ....and Roger Smith wears an Omega and Dufour bought his over 10 years ago and says the current ALS is over stylised....do we really have to go down this route every time?

What does he mean by over stylised?

[belligero]

Originally Posted by Tony64

I'll agree that dial is a mess. Sad, because they had achieved perfection with the 3940, but that was a different era. The transition from Henri to Philippe to Thierry (or is it his wife?), has been an interesting journey.

Nothing in the current catalogue warrants my consideration, but I still think that PP remains the top of the horological food chain, if for no other reason than its well earned reputation. I do think that if quality control doesn't improve and if service times don't become substantially less and in keeping with other haute manufactures, then the future remains uncertain - regardless of flawed dial designs.

That's an important point about reputation. Their thoroughly top-grade products and practices of earlier decades earned it, but it still has to be maintained; it's not an infinite resource.

At this price level, it's reasonable to expect a thoroughly no-excuses product, from the design standard to the quality to the service. Although Patek Philippe has certainly done very well from undiscerning new money in the industry, collectors and long-term clients are noticing weaknesses in all three areas. The poor dial work is merely the most obvious symptom of general complacency. The aggressive price and production hikes seem rather greedy in this context.

Perceptions change. Patek does a lot to ensure impressive auction prices on their genuinely-desirable historical watches, but I don't think it will be sustainable with current models. In general, they don't have the same attention to detail, and are somewhat charmless as a result.

If their auction-value bubble bursts, the implicit message in the manipulative "You never truly own a Patek..." (i.e. "Don't stress about blowing the kids' inheritance on this") thing stops working.

Ignoring problems will inevitably erode their position and their reputation; they would be wise to pay attention to the concerns that knowledgable buyers are starting to raise. It's in their own long-term interest as well as owners'.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Samui

What does he mean by over stylised?

He believes everything on a watch should be there for a reason and "less is more" ..hence his simplicity range
I think he was commenting on the Dato perpetual tour billion but I will have to find the interview... When he bought his Dato it was exciting, I don't think PP even had an I house movement then

[belligero]

Originally Posted by KarlS

I kind of think ALS is also a one model brand. The Datograph is a forum favourite and the AC and PC in the Saxonia range you can't give away!!! So we have a brand that everyone e says has the finest finish and yet the worse resale! The resale is set by people like ourselves who buy preened do we obviously aren't talking with our wallets. I would like an ALS at some stage but still feel it's like a hockey puck on the arm and lacks some of the finesse of a PP. I would like a FPJ PC before Pp and ALS but also can't quite get my mind to accept the huge drop in value once it leaves the AD! PP gives some comfort in that regards

It's an interesting discussion with some good points here.

However, I'm not sure whether it's a fair criticism to characterize Lange's watches as hockey pucks. Their Datograph certainly isn't the slimmest, but it also has complications that aren't typical of a classic chronograph. If you compare like for like, their simpler 1815 chrono is actually slimmer than Patek's equivalent — the 5170.

Likewise, the famous Lange 1 has a substantial case, and no doubt intentionally so, as it's not meant to be a traditional dress watch. But they also produce an ultra-thin version of the Saxonia, which achieves 5.9 mm without compromising any of their distinctive movement features.

I suspect that current Lange secondary-market pricing may seem like a bargain in the future; they seem to offer a lot of no-excuses watchmaking for the money. I'd be more comfortable buying modern Lange than modern Patek these days, and I'm saying that despite having a strong preference for independent companies and not at all being a fan of the Richemont group.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by belligero

It's an interesting discussion with some good points here.

However, I'm not sure whether it's a fair criticism to characterize Lange's watches as hockey pucks. Their Datograph certainly isn't the slimmest, but it also has complications that aren't typical of a classic chronograph. If you compare like for like, their simpler 1815 chrono is actually slimmer than Patek's equivalent — the 5170.

Likewise, the famous Lange 1 has a substantial case, and no doubt intentionally so, as it's not meant to be a traditional dress watch. But they also produce an ultra-thin version of the Saxonia, which achieves 5.9 mm without compromising any of their distinctive movement features.

I suspect that current Lange secondary-market pricing may seem like a bargain in the future; they seem to offer a lot of no-excuses watchmaking for the money. I'd be more comfortable buying modern Lange than modern Patek these days, and I'm saying that despite having a strong preference for independent companies and not at all being a fan of the Richemont group.

Sure and if you read most people reasons for selling their ALS it's not the finish, timekeeping or anything else but mainly the thickness! I think you will find thus in this forum

[belligero]

Originally Posted by KarlS

Sure and if you read most people reasons for selling their ALS it's not the finish, timekeeping or anything else but mainly the thickness! I think you will find thus in this forum

Sure, but that's one of their most complicated models. I don't think anyone reasonably expects a perpetual-calendar chronograph with moonphase, big date and power reserve indicator to be particularly thin, anyway.

Besides, though they don't offer a direct eqivalent, Patek's complicated 5204P is thicker yet by nearly a full millimeter.

[martinr]

How is resale on the Richard Lange jumping seconds limited edition? That's my favorite Lange and retail isn't outrageous for what it is. Only 100 pieces. I think that watch and a Patek 5905P would be the perfect pair, those two and a Rolex SS Sub would be all I would ever need. (famous last words haha)

[JorgeCCW]

Make your more expensive pieces Patek , the cheaper ones Rolex and fill the gap in between them with whatever you want.
Lol


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[KarlS]

Originally Posted by martinr

How is resale on the Richard Lange jumping seconds limited edition? That's my favorite Lange and retail isn't outrageous for what it is. Only 100 pieces. I think that watch and a Patek 5905P would be the perfect pair, those two and a Rolex SS Sub would be all I would ever need. (famous last words haha)

Martin, I think we both know that ALS is very aggressively priced for what you get. I mean compare Dato up/down to 5170 or Dato perpetual to a 5270. Aesthetically to me the PP wins but bang for buck is ALS. I would buy PP new but sure wouldn't touch an ALS new!! Pre owned only...and that's if I could actually read the dial on the perpetual as you would have seen in some of my other posts! I think PP owners show that we are receptive to ALS as an alternative and recognise many of the good points but most ALS owners are "die hards"

Sure some PP don't have great value (6000) but you still buy with some safety. ALS you just know you going to get a hiding!!