Relumed PCG 1675 dial

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

0.00 to me.

Harsh.....

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by swaini3

Harsh.....

How much would you offer for it after this thread?

[1watch]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

How much would you offer for it after this thread?

Does the watch have a story, absolutely. A relume doesn't mean it has no value. Reportedly MM paid around 40k for it from the owner with the first relume that wasn't done correctly. It's actually a better looking piece now with this relume and correct hands, so probably worth that neighborhood or a bit more.

We've only heard once from each dealer involved and their apology posts left questions due the the lack of complete details or believability of information shared. As such, it just casts suspicion on both at this time. Also speculation of who did the relume work and their role, which I don't suspect we will have confirmed. Without more transparency, I believe both have damaged reputations that will follow them and are likely dealing with clients asking questions about previous purchases.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by 1watch

Does the watch have a story, absolutely. A relume doesn't mean it has no value. Reportedly MM paid around 40k for it from the owner with the first relume that wasn't done correctly. It's actually a better looking piece now with this relume and correct hands, so probably worth that neighborhood or a bit more.

It’s worth much more of course. Just the correct hands is worth a couple of thousands and the much prettier looking relume ads to it from the dealer buy price of 40. For a buyer that accepts the relume it should at least be worth 60 retail. It’s still a very rare and beautiful watch. Just not for everyone.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by 1watch

Does the watch have a story, absolutely. A relume doesn't mean it has no value. Reportedly MM paid around 40k for it from the owner with the first relume that wasn't done correctly. It's actually a better looking piece now with this relume and correct hands, so probably worth that neighborhood or a bit more.

We've only heard once from each dealer involved and their apology posts left questions due the the lack of complete details or believability of information shared. As such, it just casts suspicion on both at this time. Also speculation of who did the relume work and their role, which I don't suspect we will have confirmed. Without more transparency, I believe both have damaged reputations that will follow them and are likely dealing with clients asking questions about previous purchases.

The relume doesn’t bother me; it’s the alleged (note: it’s only an allegation!) misrepresentations associated with the watch. Who wants to invest SCORES of thousands of dollars in a watch and then, thereafter, every time you talk about the watch you have to explain, “ok, well, so, listen ... there’s a backstory to this watch. Here’s what happened to it [INSERT VERY LENGTHY DESCRIPTION HERE]. Based on that, there may be other issues with it — I have no idea.” And of course, you have to be meticulously accurate, fair, and fulsome in your description so that you don’t risk making any misrepresentations to the next person. Really? Anyone want to do that, particularly with so many other great vintage pieces in this price range .....

[Verdi]

It is quite obvious that high amounts are exchanged for some vintage pieces...and those amounts are as fragile as a 50 yrs old lume plot.

Also, reality check. Lume will eventually crumble and while one can be happy to find an original dial and lume 1675.....that might not be the case after a few years of ownership. Nothing lasts forever.

What am I saying....is do your homework and take everything with a pinch of salt. Make sure that you have 4 million bucks in the bank before you spend 40-50k on a vintage piece. It is tricky and the value can go down to half in a blink of an eye.

It is a risky business....we have seen good redials, bad redials, aged lume, aged bezels, fake bezel aged to look period correct. Very few people have the knowledge to spot all these easily.

[1watch]

I guess if someone is ok with a quality relume and has the piece examined in hand to ensure the rest of the dial looks good (can't tell everything from photos, esp. on gilt), then the real value is what someone is willing and able to pay based on the condition and story.

Yes, lume and other components age/degrade with time. The question is are they aging in an expected natural or by an unnatural intervention manner?

I don't agree that there is a financial threshold one needs to have to enjoy these pieces and that's an individual decision on what they're comfortable with paying. Moral of story, do your homework, get 2nd, possibly 3rd opinions and ensure you can unwind a deal within an agreed upon period of time if a piece does not check out to your satisfaction. That's a good way to enjoy vintage and reasonably manage risk for peace of mind.

[Tavli3]

The answer is research, research and more research no matter how much money you have in the bank. If you want a vintage piece you need to be willing to put in the time to research whatever piece you're looking to acquire. Then if you can double check your own conclusions with a reliable 2nd opinion, great and if that 2nd opinion doesn't corroborate your conclusions then a 3rd party opinion is needed or a hard pass on the piece.

When I got my 5513 gilt I studied it every which way from Sunday, something I should have done before I bought it LOL! Discovered I was very lucky it wasn't a fake and even luckier now that I know better of what goes on in Vintage Land thanks to some of the forthright posters here. So I was looking at another one and was writing it off as a fake case because the font on the serial number was way different then mine. Then I did a little more research and found out that there is indeed two styles of font!

So when you think you did enough research, do more! The scary part is that there are so many ways the tricksters can fool you and they are getting very very good at their deceptive trade. Swapping dials back and forth on watches every time its resold thru auction or oneof their cohorts and inserting regular Valjoux movements in vintage Daytonas that look identical to the Rolex Valoux movement except for a few minor differences that if you are not aware of, the casual observer would miss and therefore get screwed.

I am so thankful for this thread, it has opened my eyes much further and thanks for all those that share the knowledge and police against frauds when they can.

[Rolex tom]

Originally Posted by SubKing

You have known Michael for over 10 years huh..?

So you have known him since he was 12?
Because he’s 22 years old now...

Tbf MM has been on this forum for about a decade.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Rolex tom

Tbf MM has been on this forum for about a decade.

Taking my post out of context which has nothing to do with how long he has been a forum member... Any kid can sign up to a forum.

It had to do with me responding to someone, who's post was about how he has been dealing with MM both with watches and friends with him for over 10 years.

So my post in response to this person, was asking if he has been dealing with MM since he was 12 years old? Seems a bit odd for a 12 year old to sell high end vintage watches. At that point he shaved a couple more years off and said 8 years.. I felt and still feel it was just someone who knows MM family on a personal level (he knows his dad by name) and is trying to stick up for him in a losing situation.

Either way, I personally won't be dealing with MM not even for a pack of bubble gum after this. The entire situation crossed the line and he won't say a word to anyone because he knows he guilty. Anything he says will just lead to more questions and he obviously doesn't care to get into the specifics of his sources with this instance.

I'm sure there are many out there that don't belong to this forum or never saw the instagram posts before they were taken down, however I do feel all the quality collectors and dealers know what happened here.

I can't imagine it will be as easy for him to move watches as it once was.

I can't even imagine him actively posting here again tbh, after snubbing this thread.. This entire situation completely shocked me when the news broke. I was truly hoping for some logical explanation even though I felt the evidence against him was pretty clear.

[1watch]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Taking my post out of context which has nothing to do with how long he has been a forum member... Any kid can sign up to a forum.

It had to do with me responding to someone, who's post was about how he has been dealing with MM both with watches and friends with him for over 10 years.

So my post in response to this person, was asking if he has been dealing with MM since he was 12 years old? Seems a bit odd for a 12 year old to sell high end vintage watches. At that point he shaved a couple more years off and said 8 years.. I felt and still feel it was just someone who knows MM family on a personal level (he knows his dad by name) and is trying to stick up for him in a losing situation.

Either way, I personally won't be dealing with MM not even for a pack of bubble gum after this. The entire situation crossed the line and he won't say a word to anyone because he knows he guilty. Anything he says will just lead to more questions and he obviously doesn't care to get into the specifics of his sources with this instance.

I'm sure there are many out there that don't belong to this forum or never saw the instagram posts before they were taken down, however I do feel all the quality collectors and dealers know what happened here.

I can't imagine it will be as easy for him to move watches as it once was.

I can't even imagine him actively posting here again tbh, after snubbing this thread.. This entire situation completely shocked me when the news broke. I was truly hoping for some logical explanation even though I felt the evidence against him was pretty clear.

A sad situation for sure. The other dealer involved hasn't exactly cleared his name either and surely would be providing more details on previous IG post inconsistencies and what was left unsaid. Unfortunately we must be left to speculate on the unnamed party's identity and role in the dial relume.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by 1watch

A sad situation for sure. The other dealer involved hasn't exactly cleared his name either and surely would be providing more details on previous IG post inconsistencies and what was left unsaid. Unfortunately we must be left to speculate on the unnamed party's identity and role in the dial relume.

I read his response to mean that he didn’t want to directly throw Michael Morgan at Iconic Watch directly under the bus, but that he released enough info for most people to clearly see who is the scammer in the situation. He didn’t have to outright say it, his statements here and IG went undisputed and that says it all.

To top it off, another poster came forward to mention another highly questionable activity Michael Morgan attempted to partake in. This also went unrefuted by MM; he didn’t even bother to address it.

Is he still a member here or has he been banned? I’m wondering if that’s why he hasn’t addressed any of the loose ends in his thread.


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[btinl]

Originally Posted by southtexas

I read his response to mean that he didn’t want to directly throw Michael Morgan at Iconic Watch directly under the bus, but that he released enough info for most people to clearly see who is the scammer in the situation. He didn’t have to outright say it, his statements here and IG went undisputed and that says it all.

To top it off, another poster came forward to mention another highly questionable activity Michael Morgan attempted to partake in. This also went unrefuted by MM; he didn’t even bother to address it.

Is he still a member here or has he been banned? I’m wondering if that’s why he hasn’t addressed any of the loose ends in his thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doesn’t look like he’s been banned. He logged in a few days ago.




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[SubKing]

Michael doesn't deserve to be apart of this forum after everything that has come to light here... I hope he gets banned honestly.

His actions have spoken louder than any words.

[1watch]

Originally Posted by southtexas

I read his response to mean that he didn’t want to directly throw Michael Morgan at Iconic Watch directly under the bus, but that he released enough info for most people to clearly see who is the scammer in the situation. He didn’t have to outright say it, his statements here and IG went undisputed and that says it all.

To top it off, another poster came forward to mention another highly questionable activity Michael Morgan attempted to partake in. This also went unrefuted by MM; he didn’t even bother to address it.

Is he still a member here or has he been banned? I’m wondering if that’s why he hasn’t addressed any of the loose ends in his thread.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think that's the case to understand complicit involvement or lack thereof, based on the conflicting responses on IG. Specifically related to an earlier statement of dial swapping, any knowledge of such and the photographic proof that the dial was the same and not swapped but relumed again. I'm just saying that wasn't clarified to many people's satisfaction, so suspicion remains broader than 1 person.

[toucan]

@ Subking It’s not your call or
my call to decide who is banned and not banned.
But I feel you are crossing the line on many fronts during this thread!

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by toucan

@ Subking It’s not your call or
my call to decide who is banned and not banned.

That's why he said "hope".

Originally Posted by toucan

But I feel you are crossing the line on many fronts during this thread!

I'd like to hear more regarding this.

[Tavli3]

Hard to cross the line when we are dealing with fraud. I’d like to hear more on alleged line crossing also.


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[toucan]

Nothing has been proven or not proven but when you bring someone’s age and other personal traits into the discussion its wrong.

[116710er]

Originally Posted by toucan

Nothing has been proven or not proven but when you bring someone’s age and other personal traits into the discussion its wrong.

I disagree, I think age and other personal traits can be germane in many cases. For example, just because someone is knowledgeable on a subject (even to the degree of being a "subject matter expert") does not mean they get to sidestep wisdom/experience/how to conduct themselves, etc. Of course, having age doesn't necessarily give you those traits either but how many of us think we didn't learn some things from age?

[springer]

Originally Posted by toucan

Nothing has been proven or not proven but when you bring someone’s age and other personal traits into the discussion its wrong.

Sorry, it has been proven. You need to digest and read everything again. If you think this was an honest or simple mistake, you're the type of buyer these guys are preying upon.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Michael doesn't deserve to be apart of this forum after everything that has come to light here... I hope he gets banned honestly.

His actions have spoken louder than any words.

I think you are taking this too personal.

My

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by toucan

Nothing has been proven or not proven but when you bring someone’s age and other personal traits into the discussion its wrong.

Age aside, the parties (the only ones who actually know the truth of the matter) have had ample time to shed light on these questions or to dispel any bad information here or from the IG thread. The silence seems to speak for them, no?

[roh123]

Originally Posted by 116710er

I disagree, I think age and other personal traits can absolutely be germane in many cases. For example, just because someone is knowledgeable on a subject (even to the degree of being a "subject matter expert") does not mean they get to sidestep wisdom/experience/etc.

Michael is young but he is one of the most knowledgable guys on this forum. Usually helpful and correct. That does not make this any less bad but as a forum contributor he used to help out. His silence now on this topic speaks for itself. Very sad.

Banning wouldn’t make any sense. He should be able to respond here. If he doesn’t I would expect this thread to be bumped into eternity. At least if he continues go post in other threads.

[mailman]

Originally Posted by roh123

Michael is young but he is one of the most knowledgable guys on this forum. Usually helpful and correct. That does not make this any less bad but as a forum contributor he used to help out. His silence now on this topic speaks for itself. Very sad.

Banning wouldn’t make any sense. He should be able to respond here. If he doesn’t I would expect this thread to be bumped into eternity. At least if he continues go post in other threads.

He’s had plenty of time to respond. He did once. Nothing since then. He’s said nothing in defense of the other instance that has been brought to light either. If he does now it’s because it’s been said he hasn’t. Too late IMO.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by mailman

He’s had plenty of time to respond. He did once. Nothing since then. He’s said nothing in defense of the other instance that has been brought to light either. If he does now it’s because it’s been said he hasn’t. Too late IMO.

His loss then. Still don’t see how banning him solves the problem. That just gives him an excuse if someone later asks why he didn’t defend himself.

[toucan]

Yeah he is preying upon me please! Such anger.
This isn’t a court of law , without all the facts it’s impossible to make judgement.
But once again there is a difference between discussing the situation and lynching someone.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by toucan

Yeah he is preying upon me please! Such anger.
This isn’t a court of law , without all the facts it’s impossible to make judgement.
But once again there is a difference between discussing the situation and lynching someone.

I don’t see much “anger” or “lynching” in this thread. Can you point to it please? In any case, those are usually just “dog whistle” words meant to stir up emotion.

I see dispassionate discussion about a subject with implications that some here can understand, while others obviously can’t.

[Tavli3]

Originally Posted by toucan

Yeah he is preying upon me please! Such anger.
This isn’t a court of law , without all the facts it’s impossible to make judgement.
But once again there is a difference between discussing the situation and lynching someone.

The situation has been discussed for 11 pages now! Where have you been?
You know what I think I think its you who have crossed the line. We are talking about outright fraud and both these pelicans have had ample time to respond beyond their PR representatives prepared statements. Particularly in the case of MM that he asked Philip to perform some unusual and nefarious Dr Frankenstien operation on a dial.

Another poster has stated that Sub King has taken this too personally, well I happen to agree with Sub King. Why? Cause this could have very easily have been me that got hood winked for 88K! We are not talking nickles and dimes here!!! This kind of money deserves the harshest criticism and the harshest rebukes when there is foul play involved.

Just because MM and Stephane are experts and offer their expert knowledge and help to forum members doesn't buy them a pass in this saga. To the contrary we must hold our experts to an even higher standard. Otherwise our community will suffer and devolve. The forum community is built on those who help the less knowledgeable and is not there to feed on them. Remember some defended El Choppo as a saint because he donated and gave money to the poor. Did that make him a saint, I would think not, same logic here.

I agree with Sub King until further evidence is produced they should be banned. I think Philips evidence was sufficient for the death sentence.

This is no different then the Luke Rottass and Michael Moran BS that happened last year. Do you want to give these two Aholes a pass too??

I for one have got a very short list who I would trust for my next purchase and I can count them as posters on this thread on one hand.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by mailman

He’s had plenty of time to respond. He did once. Nothing since then. He’s said nothing in defense of the other instance that has been brought to light either. If he does now it’s because it’s been said he hasn’t. Too late IMO.

Agree 100%

Originally Posted by Tavli3

The situation has been discussed for 11 pages now! Where have you been?
You know what I think I think its you who have crossed the line. We are talking about outright fraud and both these pelicans have had ample time to respond beyond their PR representatives prepared statements. Particularly in the case of MM that he asked Philip to perform some unusual and nefarious Dr Frankenstien operation on a dial.

Another poster has stated that Sub King has taken this too personally, well I happen to agree with Sub King. Why? Cause this could have very easily have been me that got hood winked for 88K! We are not talking nickles and dimes here!!! This kind of money deserves the harshest criticism and the harshest rebukes when there is foul play involved.

Just because MM and Stephane are experts and offer their expert knowledge and help to forum members doesn't buy them a pass in this saga. To the contrary we must hold our experts to an even higher standard. Otherwise our community will suffer and devolve. The forum community is built on those who help the less knowledgeable and is not there to feed on them. Remember some defended El Choppo as a saint because he donated and gave money to the poor. Did that make him a saint, I would think not, same logic here.

I agree with Sub King until further evidence is produced they should be banned. I think Philips evidence was sufficient for the death sentence.

This is no different then the Luke Rottass and Michael Moran BS that happened last year. Do you want to give these two Aholes a pass too??

I for one have got a very short list who I would trust for my next purchase and I can count them as posters on this thread on one hand.

X2 very well said and thank you.