Relumed PCG 1675 dial

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by toucan

@ Subking It’s not your call or
my call to decide who is banned and not banned.
But I feel you are crossing the line on many fronts during this thread!

I should explain why I take this personally like I think many others do. I have and will in the future spend this kind of money on a vintage piece. I have dealt with many dealers over the years and this hits close to home for me. Too close..

At any point in time he could have engaged more in this thread instead of posting what seemed like a pre typed and very vague response, Immediately after Stephane did.

I think perhaps MM has a lot more than this transaction to be scared of and prefers not to respond then to open a can of worms. The lume job was well done and the only thing that set off a red flag was the missing dial paint. It makes me (and perhaps many others) wonder how many other successful relumes he has sifted onto the market behind the scenes. Perhaps this was the one that he finally got caught on?

You can bet who ever did this relume, has done it to many other watches on the market floating around.

Anything that I or others have discussed in this thread are just things that seem a bit out of place with this situation regarding MM.

I think MM is a very smart guy. I just don’t think the watch business is for him anymore. I also don’t think he should be apart of this forum community after snubbing us on so many things. How much could he actually care? Seems greed was more important than the passion we all share here.
It’s definitely not my call, Just my opinion.

[HERITAGE82]

@ Subking... Fair enough.

I can understand why you have such a strong feeling towards this topic, and your right in saying that we don’t know how many of these watches are already on market.

[ILuvSubs]

Originally Posted by mailman

He’s had plenty of time to respond. He did once. Nothing since then. He’s said nothing in defense of the other instance that has been brought to light either. If he does now it’s because it’s been said he hasn’t. Too late IMO.

Thanks Mods for keeping a close eye on this thread

[swaini3]

Sorry but bringing his age into it was just part of an investigation and the 'big picture' , this does help make a decision when we're dealing with vague explanations that dont fall in line with statements elsewhere. I am sure any one here would defend themselves and be upset if they were accused of something they are innocent of. Silence is not in favor of either party here.
I really hope this incident is not one of these that are "forgotten with time". It's enough we have to deal with scammers, replica parts, "All original" descriptions etc.
We dont need these "games" in this hobby.
I really respect MM's knowledge, experience and what he's achieved at a young age but he lost many "fans" after this since he chose to belong to another category of dealers.

[Tavli3]

I've been thinking very much about this story and another one regarding a post about a 5513 where another member decided to post his "Prized Possession" a 5517 Mil Sub for all our enjoyment and he was promptly informed that his prized possession that I'm sure he paid a significant sum for was a complete and horrible fake! What a dreadful feeling that must have been for him to read that!

Sort of the same dreadful feeling I got as I found myself picturing myself in the Wizard Of Oz movie where I'm strolling down The Yellow Brick Road and I come upon a sign that reads You Are Now Entering The Haunted Forest Of Vintage Land. I Would Turn Back If I Were You! I decide to forge ahead and come upon a group of Apple Trees but instead of apples they have vintage watches hanging from there branches. As I get a closer look I notice that they have swapped dials, fake dials, relumed dials and say out loud these are all fake watches whereupon the trees come alive and yell whose watches are you calling fake! We've been growing and selling these watches for decades, we're the best watch trees in the world! Then they proceed to throw their watches at me and as I am dodging these flying fake watches The Wicked Relumer Of The West pops up and says how about a little Radium to go with your faked watches and he starts throwing little fiery balls of Radium at me.

Well I think I had enough and start sprinting for the forest exit screaming Dial Swappers And Relumers...OH MY! Dial Swappers And Relumers...OH MY!!

Time for a strong cup of coffee and I hope our Mil Sub member gets his money back!

[HERITAGE82]

^ I want what ever you just smoked to write that.

[cop414]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

I've been thinking very much about this story and another one regarding a post about a 5513 where another member decided to post his "Prized Possession" a 5517 Mil Sub for all our enjoyment and he was promptly informed that his prized possession that I'm sure he paid a significant sum for was a complete and horrible fake! What a dreadful feeling that must have been for him to read that!

Sort of the same dreadful feeling I got as I found myself picturing myself in the Wizard Of Oz movie where I'm strolling down The Yellow Brick Road and I come upon a sign that reads You Are Now Entering The Haunted Forest Of Vintage Land. I Would Turn Back If I Were You! I decide to forge ahead and come upon a group of Apple Trees but instead of apples they have vintage watches hanging from there branches. As I get a closer look I notice that they have swapped dials, fake dials, relumed dials and say out loud these are all fake watches whereupon the trees come alive and yell whose watches are you calling fake! We've been growing and selling these watches for decades, we're the best watch trees in the world! Then they proceed to throw their watches at me and as I am dodging these flying fake watches The Wicked Relumer Of The West pops up and says how about a little Radium to go with your faked watches and he starts throwing little fiery balls of Radium at me.

Well I think I had enough and start sprinting for the forest exit screaming Dial Swappers And Relumers...OH MY! Dial Swappers And Relumers...OH MY!!

Time for a strong cup of coffee and I hope our Mil Sub member gets his money back!

Now I’ll be having some pretty strange nightmares tonight!

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by SubKing

You can bet who ever did this relume, has done it to many other watches on the market floating around.

Hit the nail on the head! That it's very obviously not this relumers first vintage Rolex and the quality is so convincing that a highly respected dealer/s are confident enough to pass it off as original. All the other discussion and finger pointing on this thread is just banter in terms of the implications this has for our hobby.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Tavli3

Cause this could have very easily have been me that got hood winked for 88K!

Remember some defended El Choppo as a saint because he donated and gave money to the poor. Did that make him a saint, I would think not, same logic here.

As bad as this situation is with MM and Medam, this is getting carried away.

No one got "hoodwinked" for $88K. The buyer got a full refund and the watch was never even shipped to him. And now we're comparing MM to one of the world's most evil drug lords who murdered dozens of people? Really?

The case of this relumed GMT is terrible and indefensible. Two top dealers look awful and it's a black eye for the entire business/hobby. But can we please not exaggerate and treat them as if they've committed the crime of the century?

[1watch]

I agree perspective is important. At least for now, the dealers involved will have to face the consequences in the absence of new information.

I for one am interested in understanding how to spot such quality relume work, regardless of who did it and under what circumstances. It seems as though it was done in a manner that can generate some level of geiger reading (although that is now a topic of debate for early '60's lume) and expected UV reaction.

If SM has it back in his possession from FedEx and has genuine interest in reputation repair and being of service to collectors, posting macro pics of the dial and lume would be a good place to start.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by 1watch

I agree perspective is important. At least for now, the dealers involved will have to face the consequences in the absence of new information.

I for one am interested in understanding how to spot such quality relume work, regardless of who did it and under what circumstances. It seems as though it was done in a manner that can generate some level of geiger reading (although that is now a topic of debate for early '60's lume) and expected UV reaction.

If SM has it back in his possession from FedEx and has genuine interest in reputation repair and being of service to collectors, posting macro pics of the dial and lume would be a good place to start.

This would be the best outcome. Education for the forum and in all honesty if MM wants to chime in on who could have done the relume that would also be of great interest for anyone who actually wants this work done on their watch.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by HERITAGE82

This would be the best outcome. Education for the forum and in all honesty if MM wants to chime in on who could have done the relume that would also be of great interest for anyone who actually wants this work done on their watch.

Doubt the person doing this work wants it advertised.

[Tom1675]

Originally Posted by 1watch

I agree perspective is important. At least for now, the dealers involved will have to face the consequences in the absence of new information.

I for one am interested in understanding how to spot such quality relume work, regardless of who did it and under what circumstances. It seems as though it was done in a manner that can generate some level of geiger reading (although that is now a topic of debate for early '60's lume) and expected UV reaction.

If SM has it back in his possession from FedEx and has genuine interest in reputation repair and being of service to collectors, posting macro pics of the dial and lume would be a good place to start.

Yep! Geiger and the macros. Would be very informative and go a long way with the forum I agree.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by roh123

Doubt the person doing this work wants it advertised.

I realize that... I still feel that if he is doing this legitimately then people knowing of his skills just gives them the option of more work not the requirement. However, if the whole purpose of this persons skill is to deceive then that is a sad reality.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by swish77

As bad as this situation is with MM and Medam, this is getting carried away.

No one got "hoodwinked" for $88K. The buyer got a full refund and the watch was never even shipped to him. And now we're comparing MM to one of the world's most evil drug lords who murdered dozens of people? Really?

The case of this relumed GMT is terrible and indefensible. Two top dealers look awful and it's a black eye for the entire business/hobby. But can we please not exaggerate and treat them as if they've committed the crime of the century?

I concur with Aaron. This is a bad situation because it involves allegations involving two reputable industry participants. And we’ve all spent material $$ on vintage pieces, which is unnerving in this context. But the shock and awe on this thread? All this reminds me of my favorite line in my favorite movie: “I am shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.”

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

I concur with Aaron. This is a bad situation because it involves allegations involving two reputable industry participants. And we’ve all spent material $$ on vintage pieces, which is unnerving in this context. But the shock and awe on this thread? All this reminds me of my favorite line in my favorite movie: “I am shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.”

.

[00Seven]

Interesting thread...the vintage world is a scary place to play.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by 00Seven

Interesting thread...the vintage world is a scary place to play.

Not less scary than the modern watch world. Some people make this a bigger mess than it is.

[springer]

Originally Posted by swish77

As bad as this situation is with MM and Medam, this is getting carried away.

No one got "hoodwinked" for $88K. The buyer got a full refund and the watch was never even shipped to him. And now we're comparing MM to one of the world's most evil drug lords who murdered dozens of people? Really?

The case of this relumed GMT is terrible and indefensible. Two top dealers look awful and it's a black eye for the entire business/hobby. But can we please not exaggerate and treat them as if they've committed the crime of the century?

Let me help a little here with what being "hoodwinked" really is. In this particular instance, the buyer of this watch, or victim, was definitely hoodwinked.

The definition of being hoodwinked?
transitive verb. 1 : to deceive by false appearance

Hoodwinked is a common term used by law enforcement authorities to describe a fraud. It was used more in days gone by but the meaning remains the same.

Because the buyer, or victim, got his money back doesn't mean he wasn't hoodwinked. He was definitely hoodwinked, defrauded or whatever manner you choose to describe it. The final outcome for someone being hoodwinked or defrauded is always the hope for them to receive the merchandise, item or money back in full. This victim was lucky in this particular instance to have has money returned - many victims don't.

[1watch]

This shouldn't pass like the wind either. If both parties don't care to elaborate or share more with the community, then I don't know why any serious collector would do business with either moving forward. Intentional fraud is serious, especially at this level of expense.

[Tavli3]

Originally Posted by swish77

As bad as this situation is with MM and Medam, this is getting carried away.

No one got "hoodwinked" for $88K. The buyer got a full refund and the watch was never even shipped to him. And now we're comparing MM to one of the world's most evil drug lords who murdered dozens of people? Really?

The case of this relumed GMT is terrible and indefensible. Two top dealers look awful and it's a black eye for the entire business/hobby. But can we please not exaggerate and treat them as if they've committed the crime of the century?

Swish I'm sure the buyer whoever it was paid for the watch before it was shipped, the watch was indeed shipped if you read Stephane's post and that when this was all brought to light he had the shipment redirected back to him. So yes the buyer was Hoodwinked and save by watchknut and very luckily I might add. Second you are taking my analogy completely out of context, obviously I am not comparing MM to El Chapo! It was a comparison to the insinuation that since MM has provided much expertise over the years that he somehow deserves a pass or leniency for his transgression because he's been a good guy providing information. Nothing to do with the actual person(s)

[swish77]

Originally Posted by springer

Let me help a little here with what being "hoodwinked" really is. In this particular instance, the buyer of this watch, or victim, was definitely hoodwinked.

The definition of being hoodwinked?
transitive verb. 1 : to deceive by false appearance

Hoodwinked is a common term used by law enforcement authorities to describe a fraud. It was used more in days gone by but the meaning remains the same.

Because the buyer, or victim, got his money back doesn't mean he wasn't hoodwinked. He was definitely hoodwinked, defrauded or whatever manner you choose to describe it. The final outcome for someone being hoodwinked or defrauded is always the hope for them to receive the merchandise, item or money back in full. This victim was lucky in this particular instance to have has money returned - many victims don't.

Well aware of the definition of "hoodwinked," thanks, but the comment was that the buyer was "hoodwinked FOR $88K," implying he was defrauded financially, which is inaccurate. No money was lost.

Not trying to defend the actions of these two dealers, but this thread has become an exercise in piling on for some members.

Originally Posted by Tavli3

You are taking my analogy completely out of context, obviously I am not comparing MM to El Chapo! It was a comparison to the insinuation that since MM has provided much expertise over the years that he somehow deserves a pass or leniency for his transgression because he's been a good guy providing information. Nothing to do with the actual person(s)

In the context of this thread, once you start mentioning people like "El Chapo" you are making comparisons. Perhaps you didn't mean it to come across that way, but it seemed over the top. Just my opinon.

[springer]

[QUOTE=swish77;10976593]Well aware of the definition of "hoodwinked," thanks, but the comment was that the buyer was "hoodwinked FOR $88K," implying he was defrauded financially, which is inaccurate. No money was lost.



I guess you didn't read my complete post Aaron. He was hoodwinked and/or defrauded or whatever you want to call it. Just because they returned the "victim's" money doesn't negate a fraud that occurred.

As a simple example, if you defraud someone's bank account by writing some fraudulent/fake checks on that account, cash them and obtain something of value - i.e.money from that account - then get caught, and offer restitution, you still committed fraud.

As far as the drug czar analogy goes, I would agree with you there.

[southtexas]

[QUOTE=springer;10976689]

Originally Posted by swish77

Well aware of the definition of "hoodwinked," thanks, but the comment was that the buyer was "hoodwinked FOR $88K," implying he was defrauded financially, which is inaccurate. No money was lost.



I guess you didn't read my complete post Aaron. He was hoodwinked and/or defrauded or whatever you want to call it. Just because they returned the "victim's" money doesn't negate a fraud that occurred.

As a simple example, if you defraud someone's bank account by writing some fraudulent/fake checks on that account, cash them and obtain something of value - i.e.money from that account - then get caught, and offer restitution, you still committed fraud.

As far as the drug czar analogy goes, I would agree with you there.

So simple to understand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gina Marie]

At first I was watching this unfold, I was confused by Some of the rebuttals from the sellers involved. It now seems that the consensus is that MM altered the dial and sold it onward. His defense was pretty soft. In this case, it would have been better to not write anything at all. Too bad. I have bought from him before. Reputations take a lifetime to develop and can disappear overnight. I would anticipate that there are a few folks looking at their watches right now and likely wanting a refund from MM. reminds me of the Lerman paperwork fiasco a few years back. My understanding is that he refunded some large numbers from disgruntled folks that realized their papers were wonky. However, the good news is that these sellers realize that there are eyes out there and the Inet and IG make it easier to catalogue and catch discrepancies. There is a guy doing this for old Panerais right now that stopped a few auctions.

I think Lerman is still selling although not really mainstream anymore. I would anticipate that MM will experience something similar. Too bad. I like him. I was rooting for him to be a bit more specific in his rebuttal and not so vague. He still has time I would guess, but if I were him I would lie low for a bit. This will not die down sadly as too many folks are aware. Really too bad. Has MM been banned from this Site now? If so, that is not good. Too bad really. I did trust him. I hope he can defend himself but alas I think that ship is sailing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1watch]

Trust is earned over time and lost very quickly with lies and/or deceit. If one or more dealers and other party(ies) involved intended to deceive and are now outright lying or doing so through omission, then they don’t deserve to be successful in this business.

I don’t think that either dealer should be banned, as I would like both to have a forum to confront the issues. That said...I doubt we will hear more, as both have had ample time to set their record straight and address inconsistencies and omissions of key details in their statements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[swish77]

Originally Posted by springer

I guess you didn't read my complete post Aaron. He was hoodwinked and/or defrauded or whatever you want to call it. Just because they returned the "victim's" money doesn't negate a fraud that occurred.

As a simple example, if you defraud someone's bank account by writing some fraudulent/fake checks on that account, cash them and obtain something of value - i.e.money from that account - then get caught, and offer restitution, you still committed fraud.

As far as the drug czar analogy goes, I would agree with you there.

I think we're splitting hairs here, but as a former national news editor at The Associated Press for 15 years, I can assure you that most people reading "hoodwinked for $88K" would assume someone lost that money. Was the buyer of the GMT hoodwinked initially, yes, I agree.

In general, this thread has gotten so off-topic at times, with ridiculous (and dangerous) analogies, exaggerations, and vilifications. The facts of this case are bad enough. There's no need to embellish.

[Mauiguy]

Originally Posted by roh123

Doubt the person doing this work wants it advertised.

I agree. I think it's important to shine the light of transparency on this mystery re-lumer.

[FrenchBigCrown]

Wow!

Just caught up with this (rather meandering) thread. Fascinating read.

My own conclusions are that I wouldn't buy a watch from either of those dealers now... and if I'd bought one previously, I'd be getting it checked.

Stay safe all.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by FrenchBigCrown

Wow!

Just caught up with this (rather meandering) thread. Fascinating read.

My own conclusions are that I wouldn't buy a watch from either of those dealers now... and if I'd bought one previously, I'd be getting it checked.

Stay safe all.

hit the nail on the head. Which is why I think some are a bit defensive with this thread to begin with.