Does Flipping Hurt the World of Horology?

[Rto]

Originally Posted by paceme2

Saturday I'm paying an AD a ton of money for a SS Daytona (white face). Here is the way I see it. I'll never get one at list for several reasons. I don't spend enough money at my AD, assuming you have to spend a ton to get one at list. Yes, I buy some Yurman for my wife 3/4 times a year. I don't have time to hang out and suck up to him. I work hard, I want it now, done. Also, I'm a business man. My company survives on profit margin. Let him make a profit. I suspose people are going to say that Rolex doesn't know what AD's do with Daytona's. Give me a break. It's their way of giving the AD a kick back, just like in the auto industry.

All this stuff about my loyal, best friend, AD only sells his 3 or 4 per year at list. To who....you? No. You and the rest of the world are on the "never get to you list". Wake up, there is one person at the AD who knows where his SS Daytona's go. And guess what they are going to another AD or grey market buyer.

My AD gives me a big discount off my Yurman purchases without me even asking. I know the list and know what I'm going to pay and we don't even discuss it. So he makes some back on SS Daytona..so what.

If I am one who spends the rumored amount of money at an AD to get a SS Daytona at list why would I care about it. I wouldn't because I'm too busy wearing my Patek. How many Daytona's get flipped by these folks. At least my papers will have my name on them.

Ok. Sacrifice me.

Hello Pace,
How much are you going to pay for it on saturday at your AD? (why are you going to pay more than list at your AD??) They can't charge you more than the list price! (it's Rolex policy)The only ones that can do it are exactly the ones that gets thru an AD and then sell it at the grey or secondary market.
Do you understand that is not a matter of money or havng it?
Even if you for instance wants the watch righ away and so don't want to wait for or go on a waiting list you can offer whatever you have it 20-30K and they will not sell it to you if they don't want to! (at least that is the info that I and some others here at the forum have). Pls correct if I'm wrong.

Maybe you can overpay it but "indirectly", having some some other expensive products and jewerly added to the total sale in other to make a package and so convince the AD to sell to you.

In terms of profit and margin...selling at list, they are already making a substantial money and a fair one I would say.

[Rto]

Originally Posted by Launch Mini

This post has me thinking.
I can see both sides.
Not all Rolex's or Pannies or whatever, are sold to flippers, so maybe the "premium" watches are a little harder to come by. As Paceme said, if he wants one he can get one. Plus I don't think the "average" buyer is going after the SS Daytona right away.
Now, I don't flip watches, BUT, I did jump the queue on my next Panerai.
My AD was great, she said I could "put my name on the list" or, If I put 1/2 down she would ensure I was next on the list.
Again I can see both sides to this one. Maybe I took someones place, BUT , if they really wanted the watch ( at cost) they could put a downpayment on it also.
This is no different than a special order car. Money down, wait for your options to arrive.
PLUS when new models of the "hot" cars come out, do you think they go to the average Joe ( Ie new Mustangs, Corvettes, Ferrari's etc etc etc)
Heck even when I bought the first New MINI, I had to put my money down 4 months before they were even offered in Canada.

Hi John,

You are right when you reffer to a need of a down payment for special orders...I just only believe on something like that...something that makes both parties (AD and customer) compromised with each other. (I heard from some ADs that they do not accept down payment on such a product like a Daytona or a LV for example because they don't want to be compromised with an estimated delivery time that they tell they don't have because of Rolex)
If all ADs have this type of policy, the waiting list, for sure, would be much smaller...and fair...there is a lot of flippers that maybe even do not have the money, use maybe a credit, get the watch with an AD and offer it overpriced on the grey market to the ones that do not want to wait. (Rolex is selling anyway as well as the ADs...it is just no fair with the others that deserve or want the thing or support the brand as I mentioned before)

[JJ Irani]

Good thread, Johnny.

I had to go with "Yes". As far as I'm concerned personally, I have the very good fotune of having a top class, excellent AD - Mansor's Jewellers. Those people treat me like a king as they do all their customers. I would NEVER EVER need to even think about the grey market or flea bay!!

Not only do I NEVER pay list, I also get prices that would put most prices around the world to shame!! NZ is a small market as far as watches are concerned so I really wouldn't be the best person to pass judgement. ALL models are openly displayed here. If I really wanted an LV or even an SS Daytona (neither of which interest me), all I have to do is ASK!!

However, the list price of an SS Daytona here is NZ$11,800 = US$8,000 approx. Yes, that is a fantastic price, but in all honesty I cannot afford it. I also have no shame in confessing that I am one of those who earns less than 50 grand a year, but my advantage lies in the fact that I am 100% debt free - no mortgate, no finance, no damn nothing!! I own everything I own and don't owe anyone a brass farthing!!

Cheers - JJ

[C.J.]

Originally Posted by Atomic

No, I mean people who do it as a side business. Personally if I had an opportunity to pick up a SS Daytona at list, I would and I'd offer it to someone who really wants it... AT LIST. Pay it forward, I say.

I'm up in the air on this one. Speaking from a moral standpoint, being quite enthused with watches I have to agree with John. This is exactly what I would do and would like to see done. Although, I don't see where the opposite hurts the horology community. I do feel that it can keep the most deserving of people, the true enthusiast (IMHO), who will appreciate the piece for what it is and not for it's investment or flash value, from obtaining a difficult to acquire timepiece for some time.

Fair ? No, IMO. Detrimental to horology ? I personally don't think so, but again, thats just my opinion

BTW, great thread, Johnny

Wow, great responses, guys!

I guess I have issue #1 with the ADs who allow this to happen, #2, Rolex for knowing it happens but doing little about it (RUSA that is... in Canada a national chain of AD recently had Rolex pull their dealerships and I'm told it's for allowing this practice to happen). #3, I don't see what good it does when a true enthusiast (average joe) wants a SS Daytona or an LV but gets jumped in line by some guy who will scalp it to a 'collector' and the watch will just sit in a vault for years.

Great comments, guys!

[John Holbrook II]

Originally Posted by comatox

Does obtaining a highly desirable watch that has years worth of waiting list and selling it BNIB for a 3 dollars loss qualify as flipping?

Cause if it does... then I am a flipper.

That's an interesting perspective Chip. I don't know why you would have lost $3.00 in the transaction, unless you simply gave me the incorrect amount to reimburse you for shipping. I sent you a wire transfer for the watch, and a seperate check to cover the shipping. I also sent you a $150.00 watch the express my appreciation for the favor, as well as some Omega logo collectible items (which always seems to never be remembered when you and other make reference to this transaction in the several times you've done in the past year).

Seems like you easily came out money ahead on the deal, but if you need another $3.00 just E-Mail me your address and I'll be happy to cut you a check.

In response to the question(s) of this poll, sure I hate to people who simply buy multiple Daytonas for the express purpose of reselling. That's not to say that anyone who sells a Daytona is being morally or ethically questionable for doing so. Remember, vendors, dealers, and collectors don't over charge - people over pay. Sellers only charge what the market will bear. Go free market!

Originally Posted by John Holbrook II

That's an interesting perspective Chip. I don't know why you would have lost $3.00 in the transaction, unless you simply gave me the incorrect amount to reimburse you for shipping. I sent you a wire transfer for the watch, and a seperate check to cover the shipping. I also sent you a $150.00 watch the express my appreciation for the favor, as well as some Omega logo collectible items (which always seems to never be remembered when you and other make reference to this transaction in the several times you've done in the past year).

Seems like you easily came out money ahead on the deal, but if you need another $3.00 just E-Mail me your address and I'll be happy to cut you a check.

Why would you consider this portion of your post appropriate or productive? You talk about this transaction being referenced by Chip and others several times in the past year, but I don't recall any of that being on TRF. Please leave your battles with people off our forum.

And remember, you had a choice to respond to this or not........

[alpet]

I said it before and will say it for the last time... PLEASE leave personal comments out of here!!!

None of the Mods will bother to repeat this warning and actions will be taken if this does not stop..

Thanks