Vintage Rolex Auction @ Shinwa Auction, Tokyo

[MrBlobby]

Why not just put the estimates as $1m for each of them? I prefer estimates to represent reality otherwise it undermines what the auctioneer is saying in general.

One of my issues was on lot 1014 which was a 1016 as discussed in this thread https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=925924

I’m still not sure if this is a type 6 gilt dial. But the lettering appears white and looks like a mk2 matte dial which isn’t right for the year. This hasn’t been cleared up in the thread. We were told it was a mk0 matte dial.

[jonas_shinwa]

Hello all and thank you for the additional info Jose.

My apologies for keeping you waiting. I understand and share your concern about lots 1016 (Rolex Panerai Radiomir: dial, movement and crown) and 1014 (Cartier Explorer: dial). As mentioned before, my aim is to provide transparent information about every single lot and wish to do this as soon as possible.

Both lots are currently being investigated by the watch expert team together with company management. As soon as I receive more information about their findings, I am happy to share those here.

Thank you for your patience and best regards,

Jonas

[GGGMT]

Eeesh. A credible claim of fakery from an apparent expert, I’m thinking a more experienced auction house may be a safer move.


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[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

Thank you for your kind reply. Please find below comparisons of similar fake dials made by Rinaldi. The misaligned 1 and 2 of 12 is a dead giveaway but also the Radiomir Panerai engravings where all Rs have the same width. On original dials, the second R of Panerai is slightly narrover. There is no doubt that this is a fake Rinaldi dial.












You can find further information under the following links:

https://perezcope.com/2017/10/12/vin...-tinted-dials/

https://perezcope.com/2018/05/04/the...hebys-in-2013/


Cheers
Jose

Who is rinaldi?


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[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

I suspect this is a total fake. The dial is 100% a fake Rinaldi dial. Look at the misaligned 1 and 2 in 12. The movement is a Cal. 622 from a Rolex pocket watch. The crown is fake as well as the 'Brevet' insciption has no serifs.


Cheers
Jose

Jose what was the PAM reference for which Rolex did make the case and movement for Panerai?


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[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

I suspect this is a total fake. The dial is 100% a fake Rinaldi dial. Look at the misaligned 1 and 2 in 12. The movement is a Cal. 622 from a Rolex pocket watch. The crown is fake as well as the 'Brevet' insciption has no serifs.


Cheers
Jose

Again, it’s well-known that Rolex historically made movements for Panerai (including I believe from pocket watch movements).

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4982895



So I’m wondering, are you saying the caliber 622 would’ve been the incorrect Rolex movement for this Panerai? To my untrained eye, it looks the same from historical photographs.




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[TuRo]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

Jose what was the PAM reference for which Rolex did make the case and movement for Panerai?


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Early Rolex models 2533, 3646, 6152, 6154, 6152/1.

PAM references are later pieces in the main (post-Vendome purchasing business) and A series onwards.

The Pam's with proper Rolex 'engines' are PAM 21 Radiomir only a few made fixed bracelet lugs and then the 203 with an Angelus mvt.

In my opinion all PAM Panerais are homage watches and I'm a bit sniffy about them (bit like everything from Tudor eg heritage Chronos, Black Bays etc since 1999) and their last Sub the 79190 imho was the last proper Tudor.

Whilst I know more about Panerai than I do about Rolex/Tudor but tbh woefully less than Jose as he knows his onions !

[swish77]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

Again, it’s well-known that Rolex historically made movements for Panerai (including I believe from pocket watch movements).

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4982895



So I’m wondering, are you saying the caliber 622 would’ve been the incorrect Rolex movement for this Panerai? To my untrained eye, it looks the same from historical photographs.

Since the dial is fake, not sure that the rest really matters.

Also, to the OP, it seems as if Jose has already provided very strong evidence that the watch is not authentic. Why the delay in removing it from your auction? What further investigating is needed? Jose already did the work for you.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by swish77

Since the dial is fake, not sure that the rest really matters.

Also, to the OP, it seems as if Jose has already provided very strong evidence that the watch is not authentic. Why the delay in removing it from your auction? What further investigating is needed? Jose already did the work for you.

I tend to agree, Aaron, but one of the factors that Jose seem to rely on, claiming this was a fake watch, in addition to the dial observations, was that it contained a Rolex pocket watch movement. That last fact by Jose, however, seems incorrect and pretty, obviously incorrect, as many of these watches did contain Rolex movements.

So I guess I’d like to hear from Jose again as to whether I misunderstand what seems to be to be an obvious point about the Rolex movements, or he just missed it, or what. I have no idea if the watch in question is valid or not, but Jose has made some stent claims, one of which, at least seems questionable.


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[Dan S]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

I tend to agree, Aaron, but one of the factors that Jose seem to rely on, claiming this was a fake watch, in addition to the dial observations, was that it contained a Rolex pocket watch movement. That last fact by Jose, however, seems incorrect and pretty, obviously incorrect, as many of these watches did contain Rolex movements.

So I guess I’d like to hear from Jose again as to whether I misunderstand what seems to be to be an obvious point about the Rolex movements, or he just missed it, or what. I have no idea if the watch in question is valid or not, but Jose has made some stent claims, one of which, at least seems questionable.

I'm sure he'll check back in at some point, and perhaps we will learn something. Maybe one can distinguish Rolex PW movements from a Rolex movement made to be used in a Panerai. Wouldn't surprise me. Do the Rolex-made movements used in Panerai watches say "ROLEX" on the movement?

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Do the Rolex-made movements used in Panerai watches say "ROLEX" on the movement?

Absolutely.




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[GGGMT]

Here’s George Reed of Oliver Smith (well-known Panerai dealer) in Aspen and Scottsdale talking about the long-ago confab between Rolex and Panerai.

https://youtu.be/urszGE8Qlzk?si=K5NR1XP7gYRhtf3Q

Again, I am no expert (though a big Panerai fan) and I have no idea whether the watch question is legitimate or not. But part of Jose‘s claim that it was not rests on a Rolex movement, which was well known to have been used by Panerai long ago, as explained in the above. Enough, that movement looks a lot like the movement in the watch at auction here. I’d invite some addl commentary and thoughts by Jose and the auction house / OP


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[Dan S]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

Absolutely.




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Got it, I didn't realize that photo was from a different auction.

[TuRo]

Some interesting 6154 stuff from Jose from 10 years ago btw.

https://perezcope.com/2018/05/04/the...hebys-in-2013/

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Some interesting 6154 stuff from Jose from 10 years ago btw.

https://perezcope.com/2018/05/04/the...hebys-in-2013/

Yeah Jose definitely knows his stuff. Including picturing Rolex movement. I presume I’m incorrect above, but interested in hearing more.


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[steeevvvooo]

I have no dog in this fight, but from what I know Jose REALLY knows his stuff! Everything on Perezcope website is a fascinating read and his investigation of auction listings is incredibly compelling. I'm not saying anyone is infallible, but if he told me a watch was fake I would run away, very quickly!

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[TuRo]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

Yeah Jose definitely knows his stuff. Including picturing Rolex movement. I presume I’m incorrect above, but interested in hearing more.


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Indeed. Little fun fact - there are less 'real' Panerai's at circa 1,550 or so, (if you exclude the circa 60 non Rolex Egyptian GPF 2/56) or 1,610 or so, if you include them, than there are full-blown Ferrari Race cars since 47 !!

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Indeed. Little fun fact - there are less 'real' Panerais at circa 1,550 or so, (if you exclude the circa 60 non Rolex Egyptian GPF 2/56) or 1,610 or so, if you include them, than there are full-blown Ferrari Race cars since 47 !!

Great fact!


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[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

Again, it’s well-known that Rolex historically made movements for Panerai (including I believe from pocket watch movements).

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4982895



So I’m wondering, are you saying the caliber 622 would’ve been the incorrect Rolex movement for this Panerai? To my untrained eye, it looks the same from historical photographs.

First of all, 'PAM' is a modern term for Richemont-made Panerai watches from 1997 onwards. Vintage Rolex-Panerai is a completely different animal. These watches were actually Rolex Oyster watches through and through which were equipped by G. Panerai & Figlio with their own dials and later modified to take the famous crown-protecting device (6152/1).

Rolex Cal. 618 movements found in Rolex Special Oyster diving watches of Ref. 3646, 6152, 6154 and 6152/1 were made specifically for these watches and cannot be found elsewhere. These movements were produced by Cortébert Watch Co. not far from Bienne. For their pocket watches, Rolex used large Cortébert movements since the late 1920s. Cal. 618 is based on Cal. 616 but has bridges with a different shape. Cortebert made movements for a series of companies and offered their calibers with up to 5 different bridge shapes. The calibers used in Rolex-Panerai watches follow certain rules. As can be expected from tool watch movements, their finishing is reduced (7 Côtes de Genève during WW2, 5 Côtes de Genève post war period). The engravings just state the brand, the number of jewels and country of manufacture. You can read all about it here:

https://perezcope.com/movements/


Cal. 622 on the other hand is based on Cal. 620 which is considerably thinner than Cal. 616. These movements were made for very thin and elegant dress pocket watches. The finishing on Rolex-specific calibers is very elaborated with lots of Côtes de Genève and engravings boasting about features like the Elinvar balance and the overcoil Breguet hairspring. Installing such a thin movement in a vintage Rolex-Panerai watch requires modifications to the movement retaining ring, as can be seen in this example of a Ref. 6154 where the movement holding screws sit much deeper. This is of course not original but a later modification:




Anyway, if we look at the movement installed in the watch in question, you can clearly see it has all features of a Cal. 622 extracted from a thin Rolex pocket watch. Except for the bridges, this movement looks nothing like the one you posted. If you look closely, you can see it has a jewel for the center wheel, a feature which cannot be found on Ref. 3646 movements.





One more thing. This is what an original crown looks like. See the serifs in 'Brevet'? Compare that to the crown in question.





Cheers
Jose

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Indeed. Little fun fact - there are less 'real' Panerai's at circa 1,550 or so, (if you exclude the circa 60 non Rolex Egyptian GPF 2/56) or 1,610 or so, if you include them, than there are full-blown Ferrari Race cars since 47 !!

Slightly more. Rolex made a total of 1,326 pieces Ref. 3646 of all types (1940 - 1944). 36 pieces of Ref. 6152 (1953), another 36 of Ref. 6154 (1954), plus 500 Ref. 6152/1 (1955). Oh, let's not forget Ref. 2533 from 1935/36 until 1939, at least 35 pieces in total.

All in all around 1,933 ;)


Cheers
Jose

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by pereztroika

First of all, 'PAM' is a modern term for Richemont-made Panerai watches from 1997 onwards. Vintage Rolex-Panerai is a completely different animal. These watches were actually Rolex Oyster watches through and through which were equipped by G. Panerai & Figlio with their own dials and later modified to take the famous crown-protecting device (6152/1).

Rolex Cal. 618 movements found in Rolex Special Oyster diving watches of Ref. 3646, 6152, 6154 and 6152/1 were made specifically for these watches and cannot be found elsewhere. These movements were produced by Cortébert Watch Co. not far from Bienne. For their pocket watches, Rolex used large Cortébert movements since the late 1920s. Cal. 618 is based on Cal. 616 but has bridges with a different shape. Cortebert made movements for a series of companies and offered their calibers with up to 5 different bridge shapes. The calibers used in Rolex-Panerai watches follow certain rules. As can be expected from tool watch movements, their finishing is reduced (7 Côtes de Genève during WW2, 5 Côtes de Genève post war period). The engravings just state the brand, the number of jewels and country of manufacture. You can read all about it here:

https://perezcope.com/movements/


Cal. 622 on the other hand is based on Cal. 620 which is considerably thinner than Cal. 616. These movements were made for very thin and elegant dress pocket watches. The finishing on Rolex-specific calibers is very elaborated with lots of Côtes de Genève and engravings boasting about features like the Elinvar balance and the overcoil Breguet hairspring. Installing such a thin movement in a vintage Rolex-Panerai watch requires modifications to the movement retaining ring, as can be seen in this example of a Ref. 6154 where the movement holding screws sit much deeper. This is of course not original but a later modification:




Anyway, if we look at the movement installed in the watch in question, you can clearly see it has all features of a Cal. 622 extracted from a thin Rolex pocket watch. Except for the bridges, this movement looks nothing like the one you posted. If you look closely, you can see it has a jewel for the center wheel, a feature which cannot be found on Ref. 3646 movements.





One more thing. This is what an original crown looks like. See the serifs in 'Brevet'? Compare that to the crown in question.





Cheers
Jose

Love the learning Jose! Thank you! Looks the fake-a-Rooney in the auction!


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[996marty]

Some fascinating info and it’ll be interesting to see what the OP has to say on the matter

[KY..]

I love this stuff!!!
No pun intended, gobble gobble gobble the info on turkey day thanks to Jose aka pereztroika…
Thank you!

[jonas_shinwa]

Hey all,

Thank you for the additional comments and information.

My aim as representative of Shinwa Auction is to act with professional integrity and I intend to provide you with transparency across the board. I wish to provide you with this necessary transparency as soon as possible.

I requested detailed information from the watch expert team earlier this week and sent reminders about the following 4 claims yesterday. I am currently waiting for clear answers on the questions below:

(1 to 3 about Rolex Panerai, lot 1016)
1. Based on claims by Jose who provided ample visual support, this is not the original dial. The catalogue description does not mention this is not the original dial. Why is there a different dial used and why is this not mentioned in the catalogue?

2. Explain the reason why this type of movement is used.

3. Explain the reason for using crown without serif which does not seem to be original. Why is this not mentioned in the catalogue?

(Rolex Explorer Carier, lot 1014)
4. Although the Cartier dial is presented as Mk0, different users pointed out it looks like Mk2. Please provide clear and transparent proof with unambiguous visual reference that this is in fact a Mk0 dial and not a Mk2 dial.

I also sent a reminder for a Lumeshot of the Cartier dial and will post the replies, hopefully including a company statement, here as soon as I receive those.

Best regards,

Jonas

[Haywood_Milton]

Anything to support whether the SPACE-DWELLER dial can be shown to be original to that watch, rather than fitted later to replace a plain 1016 dial ?

#casenumber

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Anything to support whether the SPACE-DWELLER dial can be shown to be original to that watch, rather than fitted later to replace a plain 1016 dial ?

#casenumber

There doesn't appear to be a SPACE-DWELLER in the auction.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

There doesn't appear to be a SPACE-DWELLER in the auction.

Think H.M. meant comment for the adjacent thread/post :-)

[Haywood_Milton]

Indeed, I appear to have conflated different sales. With apologies, please ignore the SPACE-DWELLER question here.

H

[pereztroika]

Originally Posted by jonas_shinwa

Hey all,

Thank you for the additional comments and information.

My aim as representative of Shinwa Auction is to act with professional integrity and I intend to provide you with transparency across the board. I wish to provide you with this necessary transparency as soon as possible.

I requested detailed information from the watch expert team earlier this week and sent reminders about the following 4 claims yesterday. I am currently waiting for clear answers on the questions below:

(1 to 3 about Rolex Panerai, lot 1016)
1. Based on claims by Jose who provided ample visual support, this is not the original dial. The catalogue description does not mention this is not the original dial. Why is there a different dial used and why is this not mentioned in the catalogue?

2. Explain the reason why this type of movement is used.

3. Explain the reason for using crown without serif which does not seem to be original. Why is this not mentioned in the catalogue?

(Rolex Explorer Carier, lot 1014)
4. Although the Cartier dial is presented as Mk0, different users pointed out it looks like Mk2. Please provide clear and transparent proof with unambiguous visual reference that this is in fact a Mk0 dial and not a Mk2 dial.

I also sent a reminder for a Lumeshot of the Cartier dial and will post the replies, hopefully including a company statement, here as soon as I receive those.

Best regards,

Jonas

A very basic test to do would be to simply measure the radioactivity of the dial.

The following video will give you an idea of the measurements you can expect: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cxndox9N1IO/


I helped restore two watches that were equipped with this kind of fake Rinaldi dial to original condition and the two dials remained with me, as "trophies" so to say. None is radioactive and I bet neither is yours. It is important to measure the dial on its own as the hands could have some radium.




One of the restored watches, a super rare 6152 from 1953, had had the fake dial for 20 years or so. I found an old Italian article in which the watch had been presented prior to receiving the fake dial and after all that time, I was able to retrieve the original dial and have it installed back into the watch:




Here's the link to the article for those interested:

https://perezcope.com/2017/10/12/vin...-tinted-dials/





Cheers
Jose

[jonas_shinwa]

Hello all,

Thank you for waiting. Allow me to share the company statement on the Rolex Panerai claims/questions below.

One note first:
The description of the lot "Rolex Panerai Radiomir" has been changed to "Rolex Panerai Radiomir (Prototype)"

In Japanese:
商品名を「ロレックス　パネライ　ラジオミール」 から
「 ロレックス　パネライ　ラジオミール（プロトタイプ）」に訂正

Company statement (translated from Japanese to English):

1. Dial:
Because this is a prototype, it did not come with a finished dial. It was in this state at the time of purchase, so it is being listed as is. If the winning bidder wishes to change to the unfinished dial, Shinwa Auction is available for consultation.

- Additional note that is not in the company statement: The claim about dial authenticity by Jose (together with his provided visual material and dial comparisons) was presented to the watch expert team. According to the team, the dial is a genuine Panerai dial from the 40s.

2. Movement:
The item has a transparent case back, but originally those distributed for military use did not have transparent case backs. Non-transparent case back models, using Caliber 618, were indeed used in regular production. Since this is a prototype, a product at the trial stage, it has not been released to the public.

For prototypes, various movements are prepared and tested, which means there is not one single movement type for all prototypes. The watch team considers this movement correct, as it has carved grooves, creating a three-piece structure. Because this movement includes those grooves and is original, Shinwa Auction judges there are no issues here.

3. Crown:
Shinwa Auction considers the crown to be original. 

------------------------

Original company statement in Japanese:

1、プロトタイプの為に文字盤も完成された物が取り付けてあった訳ではありません。
購入時がこの状態でしたので、このままで出品させていただいています。

落札された方がもし、完成前の文字盤に変えたいという希望があれば、ご相談をお受けすることも 可能です。

 2、今回出品されている物は裏スケですが、そもそも実際に軍用に分配された物は裏スケではありま せん。 確かに裏スケではない通常ラインの物はキャリバー618が使用されております。 プロトタイプ、いわゆる試作品段階の物なので、世の中に出ていない物が今回出てきているという ことです。

プロトタイプには様々なムーブメントが準備され、テストされ決まったムーブメントがある訳ではないです。こ のムーブメントで正解と考えています。ムーブに溝が掘られてスリーピース構造になっているのが正解なのでこ のムーブも溝がありオリジナルなのでなにも問題無いと思われます。

3 クラウンも当社としては、オリジナルと判断しております。
-------------------

Question 4 about Mk0 vs Mk2 on the Cartier model will be handled in the next message.

Best regards,

Jonas