Did this happen to you?

[myopiccoog]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan65

Quite true and well said. Just look at price and demand for some of their newer models like the 5170J, 5270G and 5960P--prices have fallen substantially and many dealers can't give them away! There is no question that Patek is king as I said above. There is also no question for appetite and strength of retired more sought after watches. At the end of the day though no single brand has a corner on all segments of the market!! There are different watches and styles out there for everyone.

Ken is dead on. What Patek does well is understand the market and what they want their product to represent in the market. For example, Patek has changed the strategy on the three pieces Ken mentions above. The 5170J is discontinued and will come out in another metal and production will be cut in half. The 5270G is now discontinued with only about 100-120 pieces ever made. They have also cut production back 80% on the 5960P to even out the supply and demand in balance. They flooded the market with that watch and know it. Patek is also increasing prices in Europe to kill the currency gap issue. They are also seriously considering only going with a precious metal strategy and elimination SS. They are debating if SS watches are a part of what Patek is and wants to be. I not sure they want to compete anymore with the likes of Rolex on SS model watches.

Bottom line... They care about the perception and value of their product. The aggressively manage the brand and customer vale. That is why they are Patek. For example, prices on the moder line were back up at the Miami show two weeks ago for the first time in over a year.

Lange is a great piece too but most sell at 50%+ back all the time. Most dealer cant carry their watch for two reasons. 1) lack of profit 2)ability to get product. Great watches!

[DK3]

Thank you everyone for responding. There is no doubt Patek cannot provide all of the features that many other brands produce. Diversity is great and having different types of watch in a collection is great for most.

Also, there is no question that Lange watches are amazing. Their craftsmanship is breathtaking.

Despite that for myself, there is only Patek. The prices keep going up very quickly. There is almost a rush to buy pieces before they get out of reach. I remember many watches such as the 5035, 5146, or 5711 have gone up by 35% in the past couple of years not only in the authorized dealer market but also in the pre-owned market. In addition to price increases it has been much harder to find pieces.

Price and demand are not the main feature that drive me to Patek. Whenever I hold and look at them I have an emotional feeling of pleasure that no other watch brand provides me. I also have no financial second thought of purchasing them because I know I can liquidate without major loss very quickly if it becomes necessary.

I also don't dive in the ocean or go to Mt. Everest for an exploring trip so I do not feel I need a watch to deal with those issues. I can go swimming and sports with my 5711 without worry and I know patek can fix anything if needed.

Several years ago I also wanted to have diversity, but at this point there is no substitute for patek and I feel anything I purchase for myself is high risk not only financially but emotionally since my pattern has been to trade it in for other watches.

Lastly, I am not saying the Patek is the best and only watch for everyone. As a matter of fact I am confused and unsure about my feelings for patek only to be "normal" that is partly why I wanted to see if others had expressed the same emotions and thoughts.

[Oryx]

myopiccoog - agree with your comments. Patek is very dynamic in managing its brand and image. By avoiding over supply they protect the residual values for existing customers which then further adds to their premium status.

How were you able to work out the production numbers for the 5170J and the 5270G?

What was the reason for the 5270G being made in so few numbers - was this because of the complexity of production or was the demand just not there. Given the rarity of this reference - isn't this one to buy and hold for the long term (assuming one likes the design of the watch).

I too have heard that PP are looking to reduce the production of SS models so that they can focus their operations on precious metal pieces. Has this been confirmed or is it still a rumour?

Does anyone know why there seems to be so many 5980's in the second hand market - it seems as if their are also significant discounts to be had for the purchase of brand new 5980/1A 001 (black blue dial). The demand seems to have cooled down significantly for this model - i remember they were once selling at a significant premium to rrp.

[Oryx]

DK3 - i have also recently been thinking about focusing on only Patek's and fully appreciate all the observations that you quite rightly make (comfort of knowing the watch won't lose 50% of its value as soon as you walk out of the AD / it can be worn under most normal circumstances etc).

For example i have owned a few JLC watches and whilst they look nice at first and i get satisfaction wearing them - when compared to the excitement and enjoyment of owning a Patek they just can't compare Hence i am in the process of selling them both.

However i find it very very difficult to even contemplate selling any of my Rolex sports models - I get the same satisfaction wearing a Rolex sports model as i do wearing a Patek.

So for me its all about Patek and Rolex - although i love my other high end watches and am seriously tempted by Lange.

[Oryx]

just checked with my AD - the 5270G is a current model and can be sourced relatively easily. I think it is the same story for the 5170J.

Is there something that you know that i don't?

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Oryx

just checked with my AD - the 5270G is a current model and can be sourced relatively easily. I think it is the same story for the 5170J.

Is there something that you know that i don't?

I can tell you that I have been offered 5170J for over 35%
off brand new. I also have been offered 5270 for substantial
discounts and demand is just not there for these newer references.
Also 5960P's have flooded market and they can be had
for 35% discounts easily. Again there is no question Patek is the king
and center of my collection. The demand and value of certain retired models
make them trade for major premiums to last retail price. The fact is they raised
prices substantially over recent years and also flooded market with supply
and as a result their current references have suffered in their ability to
retain value relative to retail price. This is no different than most major brands
excluding LE references. All in all a great discussion though! Cheers,

[Roley]

I'll stick with Rolex till the end.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by Oryx

just checked with my AD - the 5270G is a current model and can be sourced relatively easily. I think it is the same story for the 5170J.

Is there something that you know that i don't?

And why do you think they are easy to get ?

Very simple, Patek is seriously OVERPRICED today.

I still like the brand but when seeing their listprice last time I realized they've gone too far ... WAY too far

This is why you can buy them without huge waiting lists.

If you remember the 5970 and even more the 5070 ... you'll remmeber these were difficult to get.

[hutchman]

Originally Posted by unknown

If you remember the 5970 and even more the 5070 ... you'll remmeber these were difficult to get.

Very true with the platinum versions and nearing the end of production but when the 5070 was announced it was deemed too big and not very popular at all, I remember seeing 5970G's and J's in AD's inventory. All Pateks appreciate after they are discontinued.

[yessir69]

Yes.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by hutchman

Very true with the platinum versions and nearing the end of production but when the 5070 was announced it was deemed too big and not very popular at all, I remember seeing 5970G's and J's in AD's inventory. All Pateks appreciate after they are discontinued.

correct, in 1998 the first 5070 (YG, black dial) was not sought after but that changed quickly.
When the showed the white in 2002 things changed and waitinglists grew
From 2002, and later in 2004 with the 5070R it was difficult to buy one.
You had to be patient and a good client at your AD (good doesn't mean rich, good means a client they know for years)
The 5070P was the collectors dream.
Only made 1 year ( probably between 150 and 250 pieces) and the demand was HUGE. If they wanted to, they could make the 5070P for 5 years or more and there would still be a waiting list.

I NEVER saw a 5970 G or J in an AD's inventory, In the Western Eurorpean countries these were always very hard to get

[FremStar]

Love these types of healthy threads! Great info!

Originally Posted by unknown

correct, in 1998 the first 5070 (YG, black dial) was not sought after but that changed quickly.
When the showed the white in 2002 things changed and waitinglists grew
From 2002, and later in 2004 with the 5070R it was difficult to buy one.
You had to be patient and a good client at your AD (good doesn't mean rich, good means a client they know for years)
The 5070P was the collectors dream.
Only made 1 year ( probably between 150 and 250 pieces) and the demand was HUGE. If they wanted to, they could make the 5070P for 5 years or more and there would still be a waiting list.

I NEVER saw a 5970 G or J in an AD's inventory, In the Western Eurorpean countries these were always very hard to get

This one still haunts my dreams from time to time...

[goku]

Dont you guys feel a little cheated as patek are deliberately changing demand and supply to maximize profit.How does patek's family tradition support this kind of corporate tactics.
I know fashion brands like Hermes do same thing with their Birkin bags and H belts.
Quality of watches should speak for itself than playing these games to create artificial exclusivity?

[FremStar]

Originally Posted by goku

Dont you guys feel a little cheated as patek are deliberately changing demand and supply to maximize profit.How does patek's family tradition support this kind of corporate tactics.
I know fashion brands like Hermes do same thing with their Birkin bags and H belts.
Quality of watches should speak for itself than playing these games to create artificial exclusivity?

Hmmm... I am not sure I completely understand... All companies exist to maximize profits in order to survive... I personally see nothing wrong with a company producing limited quantities of their products in order to maintain their integrity to why they were first established... I hold Patek in the same breath as Cavallino Rampante. Why flood the market with numerous examples of a specific reference?

Rolex is one of my favorite brands and if you want a high produced well made timepiece sway that way... I what Patek is doing and am lucky enough to own two.

Speaking of Hermes, love what they do with their ties... Limited runs of 20-40 pieces worldwide for their aesop's is another thing I Once they are gone to collectors that's it! I for one would certainly not want any and everyone wearing the same ties as me



Carry on gentlemen...

[Oryx]

Patek have a cap on the number of watches they can produce and so re-deploy resources from one reference to another - probably based on supply / demand.

I think this is just good business and is probably the reason that residuals are so much stronger than their peers.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by goku

Dont you guys feel a little cheated as patek are deliberately changing demand and supply to maximize profit.How does patek's family tradition support this kind of corporate tactics.
I know fashion brands like Hermes do same thing with their Birkin bags and H belts.
Quality of watches should speak for itself than playing these games to create artificial exclusivity?

I don't think they do.

AP and Panerai cheat the market with their limited editions.

Patek almost never makes limited editions.

Allow me to take the 5070 example again. That was a damn hot watch and like said, it was difficult to buy one.
Not because Patek didn't want to make more watches but because they couldn't.
Patek had the capacity to make about 250 of these per year. Well, if the market asks for 500 of 1000 pieces per year ... than you will have huge waitinglists.
But it's not Pateks fault, right ?

[Oryx]

I agree - its the same with the 5131. supply just can't keep up with demand.

Don't get me started on the AP "limited editions" or on Panerai's - i just can't understand the hype.

Each to their own i suppose....

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Oryx

I agree - its the same with the 5131. supply just can't keep up with demand.

Don't get me started on the AP "limited editions" or on Panerai's - i just can't understand the hype.

Each to their own i suppose....

The 5131 is an application piece and a very difficult one to get at that! In essence it is a LE as it's supply is quite limited. Most demand will never have a shot at one and I have been on wait list for a good year now. As for AP LE's and Panerais--you really don't have to understand the hype and only those who love them and collect them need to worry about that. Yes--to each his own is absolutely correct. I don't think people need to put down other brands or followers of them to validate their own brand love! Just this guy's opinion.

[vc_watches]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan65

Yes--to each his own is absolutely correct. I don't think people need to put down other brands or followers of them to validate their own brand love! Just this guy's opinion.

Exactly.

[FeelingTheBlues]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan65

The 5131 is an application piece and a very difficult one to get at that! In essence it is a LE as it's supply is quite limited. Most demand will never have a shot at one and I have been on wait list for a good year now. As for AP LE's and Panerais--you really don't have to understand the hype and only those who love them and collect them need to worry about that. Yes--to each his own is absolutely correct. I don't think people need to put down other brands or followers of them to validate their own brand love! Just this guy's opinion.

Amen to that my friend!

[myopiccoog]

Yes I do! :) just because he can get one dosent mean they are making them any more. Patek saw the softness. Stop production and held inventory. How many they have left i dont know. They will release inventory just in time in most cases right now. They did this over the last six months with the 5960p.

I know that the 5270G is done. It may or may not be produced in another metal. The 5170j is switching to a new metal.



Is there something that you know that i don't?[/QUOTE]

[myopiccoog]

I actually disagree with your notion. Patek does this not for profit directly but to create value for their customers and to preserve/ increase their brand equity. If they focus on those two things the money will come.

Ken is dead on. Patek has dumped a ton of money into R&D to provide only in house movements. This has made their production Cost go up. They have raised prices aggressively which takes many buyers now out of the market. Couple all of this with the softness of the watch market over the last two years and the stronger dollar it has created the issue we are discussing.

So in response. Patek has slowed products to dealers over the last Six months. They will discontinue/ change some models to preserve customer value and will continue to buy back watches at auction until demand comes back. They will also have a EU price increase to address the stronger dollar.

Originally Posted by goku

Dont you guys feel a little cheated as patek are deliberately changing demand and supply to maximize profit.How does patek's family tradition support this kind of corporate tactics.
I know fashion brands like Hermes do same thing with their Birkin bags and H belts.
Quality of watches should speak for itself than playing these games to create artificial exclusivity?

[Psmith]

I like a bit of variety, hence Rolex, Blancpain and Panerai get their share of playtime... and I am fond of VC also...

[Oryx]

some highly valuable insight here - although i do feel that there is some element of profit maximisation going on by Patek.

They must realise that their growing customer base on Asia is less price elastic when compared to their traditional customer base in Europe and North America.

[kaiserphoenix]

After owning watches from rolex, ap, jlc, panerai, omega, casio, seiko etc

I can say without a doubt that Patek is end game for me lol. Maybe a ALS Datograph but Patek has the ultimate combination of beauty, design, prestige, history.

APs dont do anything for me.

[Ba Ba]

I tried many brands before but now I focus on three brands only.

Patek, Rolex and Lange.

[Oryx]

Me too Ba Ba - although i can't get myself to pull the trigger on a Lange yet

[YbNvS]

Well, I care more about the history of the watch rather than the brand. For example I love PP but I would never buy nautlius or aquanaut because in my view the Rolex Sub / Dweller is much much better. This is what I own and the reason for buying it:

1. Omega Speedmaster (3570.50.00) - Need I say more? Apart from the dial and the back, there was also something minor about being the first watch on the moon... (I still love telling the story behind this watch to people when I wear it....)

2. Rolex Sub (G series - 116610LN) - From James Bond to Steve Mcqueen, when you talk about sports watch, the Sub is iconic. Also considering that this will be the last of the letter series, it makes it more interesting.

3. Patek Calatrava (5119J) - There was this story I read sometime ago about PP asking some marketing firm to come up with a watch that didn't exist and the Calatrava is what they came up with. Can anyone confirm this, I think I might have got the story wrong with some other PP watch? Either way, it is very similar to the story behind the Black / Centurion Creditcard.

I would also love to own the Cartier Tank...

[Oryx]

YbNvS your views on the sub mariner versus the nautilus / aquanaut are obviously your preference.

I have both a Sub and SD but also own a Nautlius and an Aquanaut.

Each of these watches is exceptional in its own right and i dont think you can compare the Patek SS to the Rolex SS models.

The Patek SS models are less "tool watches" and slightly more dressy but are exceptional watches.

To me the history of the brand and the watch is important but that would not dictate my purchase - the design and build of the watch as well as the complexity and quality of the complication is also crucial for me.

I agree that the Rolex Sub and Patek Calatrava are classic watches. But the Cartier Tank and Omega Speedmaster do not appeal to me at all - the design and build quality just dont do it for me. I dont buy into the nostalaga of the Omega being the first watch on the moon.

Again all personal preference so no right or wrong answer on this one.

[newmansowndaytona]

It should also be noted that most people don't have the means to go strictly Patek, considering most of the WOW pieces are in the 35K and over range. So with that being said, I will always be a fan of the balance and versatility of a Sub. Patek is certainly the King, but there are some other Royals out there not to be forgotten.