Double Red Sea Dweller - Authenticity?

[SaliBay2019]

Dear all,

For a moment I thought to stop, but that's not a good style. You have raised some valid points in your previous posts, which I would like to comment and acknowledge herewith. Let me try to give some explanations and further information to you. In order to be systematic, I listed them under different points avoiding a long and bulky text block.

[1] I certainly do not intend telling members here what they should write, discuss, or upload. If that is the impression, then I apologize. I am purely content driven, and I also try my best as a non-native speaker.

[2] The pictures I uploaded are of rather low quality/resolution, I agree. The reasons for that I have explained beforehand.

[3] On the given photos, some of you have identified imperfections (flaking, touch-up work, or similar) at the dial bottom. Here, you have a very valid point, and, believe me, I also saw that beforehand. If these dial defects are confirmed, then it will be an absolute no-go for me to buy this watch.

[4] Why not taking better pictures? Easy? No, I am living about 300 km away from the seller and that's the reason why I have not done yet.

[5] I met the seller in November 2019 and took the photos under, I would say, bad light conditions in his shop. Maybe, I also was not well enough equipped? I came with 2 magnifying glasses (x4, x10) and a small UV lamp. The showroom light was pretty dim and, in addition, I struggled a lot with reflections from the plexiglass. I recognized that immediately.

[6] In addition to the "optics devices" mentioned above, I brought along my Witschi timegrapher. In the past, I was already told a few times that very very few people are showing up with a Witschi to evaluate the calibre. I measured the properties (rate, amplitude, beat error) of the 1570, in all 6 positions, following a specific procedure. I can disclose the results later, if wished. I concluded that this caliber is running (very) well. I am in a position to compare and judge because I follow all my watches in a regular and systematic way, including measurements before and after a service.

[7] On purpose I did not disclose the dealer and the requested price here. The latter one was already shown on the very first photo, which I uploaded here. I offered 20 % less, which was totally refused by the owner, i.e. not even 1.- USD less!

[8] Just to let you know, the seller has this watch as a customer order, and I do not know the owner, which make things much more complicated, because it is a kind of triangle discussion.

[9] Very recently I phoned the seller again; now the owner accepts my 20 % lower purchase offer. That was exactly the moment when I started the discussion here and asked for advice.

[10] Dial comparisons were also mentioned here. I do these studies since some years, not in Photoshop but in PowerPoint. Before I purchased any of my few other vintage watches, I did such an analysis, e.g. with my 5513 (meters first), my 1680/0, my GMT Master II (stick dial), and also newer watches. I will upload my dial analysis for this specific watch swiftly later here.

Last but not least, I hope you got a better and more complete picture now.

[SaliBay2019]

DRSD dial comparison (using PowerPoint). Maybe I'm doing something wrong with the file size compression to 293 kB (max). These images look in PowerPoint so much better!

Anyhow, as can be seen below, I confirm the previously made observation (by swish77) that not only the red but also the white printing looks heavier or thicker compared to the reference. Otherwise they look for me as identical MK IV dials, or not? The two dials can be perfectly overlapped in PowerPoint.

Is there something to worry?

The reference dial is taken from the following source:
100percentpassion.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/die-rolex-sea-dweller-double-red/

Suggestions for other MK IV dial references are very welcome.

[swish77]

Well, I'd say you've done about as thorough a dial comparison as possible via photos. So, good work! And your back-story explains a lot.

As I noted early in this thread, the font looks heavy on the dial in question, which is even more obvious in your comparison photos. Doesn't necessarily mean it's not authentic, but it certainly would require additional investigation. Also, the lume is quite smooth, just based on the photos. Often there's a waffle texture on old Rolex tritium, sometimes with tiny dimples. (See blow-ups below from my 1665 and 5512, 4.1 and 3.7 million respectively.)

All that said, you're still missing a couple of crucial pieces of information, which should be standard/automatic when considering a vintage Rolex, especially at this price point, from a dealer with no reputation and a watch with no known provenance:

_UV photo of dial/hands. (Could give you very important clues about the lume.)

_Photo of movement.

_Photo of inside of caseback.

_Engravings between lugs.

[SaliBay2019]

Thanks, I will deliver what you listed, except the UV photos of the dial and hands, which I don't have and cannot produce at present.

[scooba]

I know the Price and all though I believe the watch to be genuine my thoughts would be wait for a nicer example .

A Expert once explained it like this wait for a example you won’t need to make Exscuses for .

[SaliBay2019]

The price is on the sticker of the first photo (as said)

[SaliBay2019]

More photos ...

[SaliBay2019]

Caseback

[SaliBay2019]

@scooba "..... I believe the watch to be genuine my thoughts would be wait for a nicer example."

Good point, taken, any concrete example where to get a very good DRSD today?

[swish77]

The additional photos don't show any red flags, not that I notice anyway. Looks good.

So, assuming it is authentic, you'd need to decide whether the price/condition works for you. I see a price tag in that earlier photo, presumably in Euros, which would translate to about $37800, probably about market value for an MKIV. However, you'd need to factor in what appears to be a little dial damage at edge on bottom, and the polish on the case/crown guards.

I'd agree with above, to wait for a better example, even if you have to pay more. They're out there, but they seem to be showing up less and less nowadays.

I'd suggest reaching out to some good dealers and tell them what you're looking for. You might pay a little more, but think about the headache you went through just on this one example. Sometimes it's worth paying more for a question/hassle-free example.

Good luck!

[scooba]

Originally Posted by SaliBay2019

@scooba "..... I believe the watch to be genuine my thoughts would be wait for a nicer example."

Good point, taken, any concrete example where to get a very good DRSD today?

Andrew Shear @ Sheartime.com

Stephan Medan @ Worldlywatches.com

Mail either I know Stephan had several nice examples

[scooba]

Worldly watches has two MK2s one a full set and another thin case mk2 watch only .

I would buy both or either Stephane gets into Europe Skiing so delivery would be easy .

Or visit Rolex Passion Report selling pages

[SaliBay2019]

Breaking Final News:

Today, I have definitely given up the project to purchase this DRSD.

The Swiss watch dealer (in Nyon) plus the owner of the DRSD are not trustworthy.

They gave the watch to another dealer in Geneva, despite many previous discussions and an agreement not to do so. The owner very quickly obtained an offer for a complete watch revision.

*** Message to our here co-reading ROLEX experts from Rue François-Dussaud 3-5-7, 1211 Geneva 26 ***

- An official Rolex dealer (Rue du Rhône) offered a client to service his Double Red Sea-Dweller Ref. 1665 (Ser. Nr. 5209528). I possess the written offer, dated 19 May 2020.

- In my view, your official partner should be instructed (by Rolex) to bring such a very delicate watch for inspection and service to Acacias (only 3,4 km away from their boutique). They should not be allowed to try their own bricolage on such a valuable and rather rare vintage watch.

- I have sincere doubts that Rue du Rhône is knowledgeable enough to conduct a full service for such a delicate watch, which is certainly not comparable within the very high Rolex standards, including thorough inspection and acceptance test as conducted in your labs. Especially if they write on their offer "Cadran: conserver le look vintage" = "Dial: keep the vintage look".

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For me this specific thread is finished herewith. Thanks to all for your various contributions.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by SaliBay2019

Breaking Final News:

Today, I have definitely given up the project to purchase this DRSD.

The Swiss watch dealer (in Nyon) plus the owner of the DRSD are not trustworthy.

They gave the watch to another dealer in Geneva, despite many previous discussions and an agreement not to do so. The owner very quickly obtained an offer for a complete watch revision.

*** Message to our here co-reading ROLEX experts from Rue François-Dussaud 3-5-7, 1211 Geneva 26 ***

- An official Rolex dealer (Rue du Rhône) offered a client to service his Double Red Sea-Dweller Ref. 1665 (Ser. Nr. 5209528). I possess the written offer, dated 19 May 2020.

- In my view, your official partner should be instructed (by Rolex) to bring such a very delicate watch for inspection and service to Acacias (only 3,4 km away from their boutique). They should not be allowed to try their own bricolage on such a valuable and rather rare vintage watch.

- I have sincere doubts that Rue du Rhône is knowledgeable enough to conduct a full service for such a delicate watch, which is certainly not comparable within the very high Rolex standards, including thorough inspection and acceptance test as conducted in your labs. Especially if they write on their offer "Cadran: conserver le look vintage" = "Dial: keep the vintage look".

-----------
For me this specific thread is finished herewith. Thanks to all for your various contributions.

I don't understand.

1. Why is the watch given to another dealer? Did they sell it to the 2nd dealer?

2. You aren't buying the watch but you are warning Rolex SA that a Rolex AD shouldn't be conducting a service? What's your interest in this. If someone else decides to butcher their watch or have it serviced by god knows who, it's their choice.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by eton97

Here’s mine for comparison.
If the seller is a watch maker etc, maybe ask for a photos of the watch without the plexi. Then you’ll have a much better idea of what you are dealing with.






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That is absolutely stunning


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[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by SaliBay2019

Breaking Final News:

Today, I have definitely given up the project to purchase this DRSD.

The Swiss watch dealer (in Nyon) plus the owner of the DRSD are not trustworthy.

They gave the watch to another dealer in Geneva, despite many previous discussions and an agreement not to do so. The owner very quickly obtained an offer for a complete watch revision.

*** Message to our here co-reading ROLEX experts from Rue François-Dussaud 3-5-7, 1211 Geneva 26 ***

- An official Rolex dealer (Rue du Rhône) offered a client to service his Double Red Sea-Dweller Ref. 1665 (Ser. Nr. 5209528). I possess the written offer, dated 19 May 2020.

- In my view, your official partner should be instructed (by Rolex) to bring such a very delicate watch for inspection and service to Acacias (only 3,4 km away from their boutique). They should not be allowed to try their own bricolage on such a valuable and rather rare vintage watch.

- I have sincere doubts that Rue du Rhône is knowledgeable enough to conduct a full service for such a delicate watch, which is certainly not comparable within the very high Rolex standards, including thorough inspection and acceptance test as conducted in your labs. Especially if they write on their offer "Cadran: conserver le look vintage" = "Dial: keep the vintage look".

-----------
For me this specific thread is finished herewith. Thanks to all for your various contributions.

Wait what?


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[Styles Bitchley]

Weird thread.

[interestedwatcher]

Originally Posted by SaliBay2019

DRSD dial comparison (using PowerPoint). Maybe I'm doing something wrong with the file size compression to 293 kB (max). These images look in PowerPoint so much better!

Anyhow, as can be seen below, I confirm the previously made observation (by swish77) that not only the red but also the white printing looks heavier or thicker compared to the reference. Otherwise they look for me as identical MK IV dials, or not? The two dials can be perfectly overlapped in PowerPoint.

Is there something to worry?

The reference dial is taken from the following source:
100percentpassion.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/die-rolex-sea-dweller-double-red/

Suggestions for other MK IV dial references are very welcome.

I hate to revive this thread - BUT.



This is an overlay of the exact same dial, one photo was taken with good lighting, a low iso and high aperture (not that this would matter on a flat plane) and the other photo was taken in poor light, with a high iso.

These are the exact same fonts, but they look completely different. So the best way to tell then is a complete overlay - the fakers tend to get one word right, or even a few, but they won't be able to put the coronet, the top text and the bottom text EXACTLY lined up when overlaid.

I might have a look at these in a few days and do some over lays to show what I mean.

[FrenchBigCrown]

Apologies for the 'hijack' of this (very odd) thread, I'm hoping you guys can help me here?

I've looked at all the reference sites/pages etc. and have satisfied myself that this is a good MKIV dial - but just in case I missed something, maybe you guys could give it a quick look - swish77, eton97 and other DRSD guys?

If you have the time, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by FrenchBigCrown

Apologies for the 'hijack' of this (very odd) thread, I'm hoping you guys can help me here?

I've looked at all the reference sites/pages etc. and have satisfied myself that this is a good MKIV dial - but just in case I missed something, maybe you guys could give it a quick look - swish77, eton97 and other DRSD guys?

If you have the time, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

I would ask for more photos, better lighting, natural lighting, UV, etc .... But based just on that one photo, I don't see any issues other than some tritium shrinkage at the 4, 5 and 6 o'clock markers. (Quite common.)

[FrenchBigCrown]

Originally Posted by swish77

I would ask for more photos, better lighting, natural lighting, UV, etc .... But based just on that one photo, I don't see any issues other than some tritium shrinkage at the 4, 5 and 6 o'clock markers. (Quite common.)

Thank you.

[bmb15]

Hello, start posting but not new here. I love the 1665 DRSD very much, read the entire thread, interesting and detailed, not weird to me.

Concerning authenticity, Rolex Geneva would never service a watch with faked components. Therefore, a service there is the best way to be sure that everything of a valuable DRSD is right. I prefer a watch serviced there compared with full sets.