Where do dealers like HQ Milton source their vintage pieces?

[springer]

Originally Posted by fumanku

First time poster here guys, sorry for the late intro.

Who the hell are you and what are you talking about? I don't believe we've ever done business, so tell me what you are insinuating here and I will set you straight.

Very poor form, very poor Eric.

[G-Web]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

On the abundance of Rolex in Hong Kong, this is copied over from another post I made a few weeks ago. It may help to explain:

"Rolex watches have been a status symbol in Hong Kong since before the Second World War. After the Communist Revolution in the late 1940s, millions of people came to seek refuge in Hong Kong (up to the 1980s and even a few in the early ‘90s). The first wave of refugees were relatively wealthy but often had to leave much of their cash and belongings behind. An easy way to show their (former) status was to display a gold watch. Those first arrivals, just like Hong Kong’s native Chinese, went for the Datejust, as it was relatively new and had a date function which was quite the thing back then.

From the late 1950s refugees were poorer, more desperate folk, often fleeing starvation or the Cultural Revolution (1966 to 76 approx). Many were single men, and for them the first item on the shopping list was a transistor radio, but the grail was a Rolex watch, or at least a Tudor, a brand for which many settled (as in those days they looked exactly like Rolex, thereby giving some ‘face’ at least from a distance), and which is still very popular today.

This as I see it (and I am happy to be corrected by our Hong Kong Chinese members) is more or less how Rolex came to be an integral part of Hong Kong life. Go into the Rolex Service Centre any day of the week and you will see the place packed with people of all shapes, sizes, ages, and wealth brackets. Men and women, office girls, rich housewives, old men with their retirement gold Datejusts, and young entrepreneurs with their vintage Daytonas and subs.

The fact that the windows here are piled high with Rolex watches doesn’t show any disrespect to Rolex, but rather, on the contrary, it reflects a huge respect, and huge inventory, that has built up over the last 80 years or so.

Hans Wilsdorf’s death in 1960 made Front Page news in the local papers here. I doubt that was the case in many cities worldwide."

Absolutely fascinating. This is the kind of cultural insight I love.
Thanks for sharing Old Expat Beast.

-GW

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Finding 30-55 year old desirable watches is a lot of work. Every year it gets harder and the competition pool gets bigger. At the end of the day when a nice piece shows up it usually goes to the person who is known to consistently pay the most for them.

Let's not forget that every year more and more "mint, untouched, original" pieces appears on the market.

[CrownMe]

Originally Posted by psv

Kudos to Jacek to chiming in. I've done a couple of deals with him and he has always been fair and honest, even that time I opted to return a piece that wasn't to my liking. Stand up, guy. And in my experience they sell "honest" pieces, i.e. not altered and fixed up for sale.

I'm weary/done doing business with pieces coming out of Asia, especially HK. I did it once and learned my lesson, things just didn't add up to my satisfaction. Way too much laser-welding going on at this point, and way too much fake patina and "original" punched papers aged exactly the same way. It just doesn't add up.

I only bought from Eric Ku once, it wasn't quite up to expectations, but I got my refund. It might have been a one-off fluke.

Andrew Shear has top shelf stuff, but he charges a 10-25% premium for it at this point. Who can blame him since many affluent buyers gladly pay that for the peace of mind. But I've had good deals with him and would gladly deal with him again.

This sums things up well.

[fumanku]

Springer-

You tell me in a PM that you meant what you said in a positive way, not insinuating anything bad, yet I get emails from members here saying someone is attacking me and even after I post, get several PMs saying that they interpreted the post negatively as well. I can't see how anyone can read what you posted as a compliment. If that's the case, then let's all move on.

[seattleal]

I think if you are CAREFUL, and know what you are looking for, you can find nice pieces on ebay. Earlier this year I bought two really nice wide boys, a 1601 and an 1807, within a week of each other, at reasonable prices. Each was from an estate jeweler, and in each case I used the information on ebay to track down the dealer and communicate with them by phone and/or email before I bought. I also verify that the watch can be returned, and use a credit card (with or without paypal) that will stand behind me if there is a problem. When I receive the watches they go immediately to my watch maker to be opened and inspected.

This has worked well for me, both with watches I have kept, and a few I've returned, but the operative word is CAREFUL, and you must put some effort into the process.

[DiamondJack]

I think a lot of the new vintage watches that come on to the scene..... so not previously held by watch aficionados or collectors will come in from families dealing with deceased relative's estates who tend to phone up a local watch dealer based on advertisements placed in local papers or a local watch shop. Similarly, from people unknowingly trading in a valuable vintage watch for a new piece. They may also place them via auction houses like Bonhams or Christies etc. particularly if they have been a bit more astute and checked out values on the internet. Indeed, I have actually been in quite a few vintage watch stores in places like the Burlington Arcade when people have just walked in off the street and have asked to sell vintage watches.

So the dealers we respect for their incredible knowledge, like Jed, Jacek, Eric Ku, Andrew Shear etc will have spent many months/years building up relationships with small town auction houses, watch shops, curiosity shops and the like and would hope to be called when such watches appear.

But watches that are already on the scene and in collectors hands will in my experience rarely be seen for sale in any public forum, auction or websites and tend to just move around between collectors. For example, the vintage pieces in my collection have been bought directly from friends I have made in this field and, if I ever sell, I would imagine I would sell them the same way.

So I just get an e-mail or text saying there is this or that watch available and am I interested. The more you are prepared to pay above MV for a particular piece, the more likely you are to get a call. So If I am getting these sorts of alerts, imagine what dealers are getting from many years of building up their businesses and relationships.

[Vincent65]

I don't think anyone should assume anything about other peoples' business models, and I see little point in speculating about it. If it was easy, everyone could do it, like anything else. It usually follows that experts in any given field have considerable tenure, experience and knowledge, along with the relevant contacts and networks. All I can say is that there is a handful of dealers whom I'm confident buying from and corresponding with, and am glad they can source such wonderful examples. I just wish I could get my hands on a few more of them!

[psv]

Originally Posted by fumanku

Springer-

You tell me in a PM that you meant what you said in a positive way, not insinuating anything bad, yet I get emails from members here saying someone is attacking me and even after I post, get several PMs saying that they interpreted the post negatively as well. I can't see how anyone can read what you posted as a compliment. If that's the case, then let's all move on.

Eric, while agree that the initial post was a bit too vague and could be interpreted in a negative manner (I actually did...) there are more diplomatic ways to make an entrance to TRF which is a pretty tight-knit community with some serious buyers.

Regardless, stick around and be part of the community so more people get to know you.

Cheers,

Patrick

[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

i always figured this was part of the answer. however, with the internet, physical location means little. why sell to an american dealer at wholesale when you can sell to an american collector at retail just as easily?

this leads me to my next point. the profit margins have to be fairly thin, right? let's say i am an american dealer buying a run of the mill, nice patina'd, thick case white 1680 in japan for resale in the US. the japanese dealer isnt selling this to me at more than 5-10% off retail right? anything more and it seems to me to make sense to sell directly to the american consumer.

I think some of their margin is made from people trading in pieces for new (though vintage), more expensive, watches. This way you get some margin on the initial sale, sell a new watch, and then resell the original for somewhat more than what you offered as a trade in value.

[JustinK]

Fu-Man-Ku.

Love the title. Welcome and hope you stick around. It's always nice to hear an expert opinion.

[QueueCumber]

I've bought from Eric Ku and Andrew Shear. All great transactions thus far.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by fumanku

Springer-

You tell me in a PM that you meant what you said in a positive way, not insinuating anything bad, yet I get emails from members here saying someone is attacking me and even after I post, get several PMs saying that they interpreted the post negatively as well. I can't see how anyone can read what you posted as a compliment. If that's the case, then let's all move on.

Eric,
Welcome to TRF

I did not take Springers comment as a negative one. I think we all agree your pieces are very nice examples that you have up on your site.. Nothing more, Nothing less.

However, I feel, as a business man, your first post here should have been a little more professional than the one you displayed here, from a business point of view...

I just want to get something off my chest Eric.

This is the second time I have seen unprofessionalism from you regarding business.

The first time I saw it from you was with the fact that you failed to return my 5attempted phone calls and messages left. I was contacting you about a watch I was interested in several months ago.

I was told you were in town and getting my left messages by a women I kept speaking with.. Not to mention my several emails to you on top of my phone calls. Only to find out a month later when you finally got back to me, that my several attempt's were for nothing as the watch was sold.. You failed to update your website and mark the watch as sold..

You told me you would change it that day to avoid further confusion. It took you over 2 months to finally update your site and list that watch as sold.. It was very discouraging for me to say the least. Maybe you had it and didn't want to sell it to me for some strange reason? I wonder if you did not take my calls seriously since you didn't even have the watch in stock? These were the thoughts I was having..

But that failed sale could lead to a future one with me. It's just called good customer service. Without good service, then a good product doesn't mean as much.

I can personally say, regardless of how nice your merchandise is, That response you just left has made me uncomfortable to deal with you in the future. I would hate to see that side of you when you have thousands of dollars of my money.

This story was just my personal experience and I am in no way implying this is how you deal with others. I just think you could have handled both me and this thread situation differently.. But that is of course only my opinion and we all know what opinions are like..

[Beaumont Miller II]

Seriously...
This thread started off with an interesting topic of how/where the trusted dealers we buy our watches find them to begin with.
Now it appears that the thread has switched gears and has to a degree taken an unpleasant tone. Lets keep it positive.

[donaker]

I agree with Beaumont. Let's keep this thread about where/how to source good vintage pieces.

If you have something to say about any particular seller/experience, start a new thread in the "WatchOut!!!" or "Buyers/Sellers" sections.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

Seriously...
This thread started off with an interesting topic of how/where the trusted dealers we buy our watches find them to begin with.
Now it appears that the thread has switched gears and has to a degree taken an unpleasant tone. Lets keep it positive.

Originally Posted by donaker

I agree with Beaumont. Let's keep this thread about where/how to source good vintage pieces.

If you have something to say about any particular seller/experience, start a new thread in the "WatchOut!!!" or "Buyers/Sellers" sections.

You both are right. Back on topic

[MrAllAboutIt]

Originally Posted by DiamondJack

I think a lot of the new vintage watches that come on to the scene..... so not previously held by watch aficionados or collectors will come in from families dealing with deceased relative's estates who tend to phone up a local watch dealer based on advertisements placed in local papers or a local watch shop. Similarly, from people unknowingly trading in a valuable vintage watch for a new piece. They may also place them via auction houses like Bonhams or Christies etc. particularly if they have been a bit more astute and checked out values on the internet. Indeed, I have actually been in quite a few vintage watch stores in places like the Burlington Arcade when people have just walked in off the street and have asked to sell vintage watches.

So the dealers we respect for their incredible knowledge, like Jed, Jacek, Eric Ku, Andrew Shear etc will have spent many months/years building up relationships with small town auction houses, watch shops, curiosity shops and the like and would hope to be called when such watches appear.

But watches that are already on the scene and in collectors hands will in my experience rarely be seen for sale in any public forum, auction or websites and tend to just move around between collectors. For example, the vintage pieces in my collection have been bought directly from friends I have made in this field and, if I ever sell, I would imagine I would sell them the same way.

So I just get an e-mail or text saying there is this or that watch available and am I interested. The more you are prepared to pay above MV for a particular piece, the more likely you are to get a call. So If I am getting these sorts of alerts, imagine what dealers are getting from many years of building up their businesses and relationships.

I agree while many vintage collectable watches are in circulation, I figure there must be as many if not more sat idle in safes, attics , storage as heirlooms etc..

As unfortunately elders family's members pass away or untill such gems otherwise gathering dust are found such gems remain hidden. Actually it's not a bad thing as it opens the window that there will always be opportunities to locate such grails as and when they do appear probably not always in the most logical places - local pawn shops say.

As a novice enthusiast only just getting into vintage rolexes the prospect of hidden treasure makes this passion of ours even more exciting. It's testament not only to the rarity of vintage rolexes but also the romance and story of each piece .

Apart from the network where the experts stand out is their dedication exploring and searching all the possible places ensuring they locate the grails and for that they have my full respect and admiration. vintage watch collecting is probably as much perspiration as it is inspiration.

[FremStar]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

Seriously...
This thread started off with an interesting topic of how/where the trusted dealers we buy our watches find them to begin with.
Now it appears that the thread has switched gears and has to a degree taken an unpleasant tone. Lets keep it positive.

Very true. With that said, the vintage world especially vintage Rolex may be at a tipping point now, especially, with new developments regarding some very prominent figures in a public lawsuit. The Daytona sale that Christies had a few months ago is the exception as there were 4 individuals who drove those Daytona prices through the stratosphere.

I can see how certain words on the internet can be miscontrued as there are other known dealers who have altered some of their vintage watches to pass them off as something they are not.

As everyone here is aware reputations is what drive these behind the door deals that never see the light of day on any watch forum or are even spoken about. Some of the numbers I have been advised on in confidence are extremely mind boggling to me, however, there are people that want to add extremely rare Rolex references to their collection.

I rarely post on the vintage side of things because I know how delicate these topics can be, however, even the "experts" can get it wrong sometimes.

All in all this is an extremely expensive hobby in which as a collector of vintage once an aquisition is made you're always looking for the next one...

Some extremely thought provoking comments here

[CrownMe]

Originally Posted by FremStar

Very true. With that said, the vintage world especially vintage Rolex may be at a tipping point now, especially, with new developments regarding some very prominent figures in a public lawsuit. The Daytona sale that Christies had a few months ago is the exception as there were 4 individuals who drove those Daytona prices through the stratosphere.

I can see how certain words on the internet can be miscontrued as there are other known dealers who have altered some of their vintage watches to pass them off as something they are not.

As everyone here is aware reputations is what drive these behind the door deals that never see the light of day on any watch forum or are even spoken about. Some of the numbers I have been advised on in confidence are extremely mind boggling to me, however, there are people that want to add extremely rare Rolex references to their collection.

I rarely post on the vintage side of things because I know how delicate these topics can be, however, even the "experts" can get it wrong sometimes.

All in all this is an extremely expensive hobby in which as a collector of vintage once an aquisition is made you're always looking for the next one...

Some extremely thought provoking comments here

very nice post Sam i agree, it DEF seems were at a tipping point and im hoping these latest developments with John mayer and Maron will bring more light to this situation and change them for the better. We can only hope

[gelroy]

Originally Posted by FremStar

.... The Daytona sale that Christies had a few months ago is the exception as there were 4 individuals who drove those Daytona prices through the stratosphere....

any more info about that?

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by CrownMe

very nice post Sam i agree, it DEF seems were at a tipping point and im hoping these latest developments with John mayer and Maron will bring more light to this situation and change them for the better. We can only hope

Kevin, did you read the lawsuit doc that was filed by Mayer's Attorney? Very interesting stuff. it's all public info.

It seems john has some very solid documents from rolex supporting his claim. This all started when the first watch that that John had sent to RSC for a routine service came back with documents stating it was not all original rolex.. John contacted Moran he agreed to refund John.

When I say refund, I mean credit for a different watch. But when John decided to have some others checked out by RSC as he felt un-easy after his first watch came back un-legit, 80% of the watches came back from rolex with paperwork stating that parts are not original rolex parts. Moran was ignoring all of Johns attemps and finally contacting John refusing to give john any type of credit or refund as he insisted that all the watches were real and rolex doesn't know what they are talking about.. That's when John filed. This is all Johns side of it of course.

Imo, I don't think Maron stands a chance with the solid proof John has against him.. Not only that, But John has no motive in this to lie about anything.. He is already rich and famous. With the dollar amount being so high, The court could subpoena Rolex to send a rep in to testify if it goes that far.

[DiamondJack]

Originally Posted by MrAllAboutIt

I agree while many vintage collectable watches are in circulation, I figure there must be as many if not more sat idle in safes, attics , storage as heirlooms etc..

As unfortunately elders family's members pass away or untill such gems otherwise gathering dust are found such gems remain hidden. Actually it's not a bad thing as it opens the window that there will always be opportunities to locate such grails as and when they do appear probably not always in the most logical places - local pawn shops say.

As a novice enthusiast only just getting into vintage rolexes the prospect of hidden treasure makes this passion of ours even more exciting. It's testament not only to the rarity of vintage rolexes but also the romance and story of each piece .

Apart from the network where the experts stand out is their dedication exploring and searching all the possible places ensuring they locate the grails and for that they have my full respect and admiration. vintage watch collecting is probably as much perspiration as it is inspiration.

Agreed and I think we all hope we may come across that fantastic find in an unexpected place.........but realistically, unless you have spread your net far and wide like the vintage dealers have in terms of contacts etc, you will need to pay a fair market price or more to obtain one.

I like to collect vintage pieces with completely full sets, so box, papers and all the trimmings and clearly also as near to perfect condition as I can find......so I'm continually disappointed ........ But I'm also prepared to pay to get them and, as I'm a long term collector, if I pay more than current value, then it doesn't really matter that much as long as I can acquire them when they become available.

I do not buy and sell like a dealer since they are clearly trying to make a living from the watch business. Indeed, i admire them for this and their ability to detach themselves from the watches they find as I am not sure if I could do this. But that also brings new watches into circulation together with their extremely valuable added stamp of approval and authenticity. I have met Jed on a few occasions in London and the level of knowledge he has is quite astonishing. So to have someone like Jed spending his working day sourcing the watches we all love, is quite an amazing service and I'm more than happy to pay for this.......

Just my thoughts ....... So, however they are sourced...... I'm very pleased they are.......

[CrownMe]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Kevin, did you read the lawsuit doc that was filed by Mayer's Attorney? Very interesting stuff. it's all public info.

It seems john has some very solid documents from rolex, supporting his claim, along with the first watch that Maron had refunded John for, that was not all original when sent back from RSC. When I say refund, I mean credit for a different watch. But when John decided to have some others checked out as he felt un-easy after his first watch came back un-legit, 80% of the watches came back from rolex with paperwork stating that parts are not original rolex parts.

What I read described in detail the entire situation.. Imo, I don't think Maron stands a chance with the solid proof John has against him.. Not only that, But John has no motive in this to lie about anything.. He is already rich and famous. With the dollar amount being so high, The court could subpoena Rolex to send a rep in to testify if it goes that far.

Maron is fine. He's got Charlie Sheen behind him

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by CrownMe

Maron is fine. He's got Charlie Sheen behind him

They both have "Tiger Blood"..

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by DiamondJack

Agreed and I think we all hope we may come across that fantastic find in an unexpected place.........but realistically, unless you have spread your net far and wide like the vintage dealers have in terms of contacts etc, you will need to pay a fair market price or more to obtain one.

I like to collect vintage pieces with completely full sets, so box, papers and all the trimmings and clearly also as near to perfect condition as I can find......so I'm continually disappointed ........ But I'm also prepared to pay to get them and, as I'm a long term collector, if I pay more than current value, then it doesn't really matter that much as long as I can acquire them when they become available.

I do not buy and sell like a dealer since they are clearly trying to make a living from the watch business. Indeed, i admire them for this and their ability to detach themselves from the watches they find as I am not sure if I could do this. But that also brings new watches into circulation together with their extremely valuable added stamp of approval and authenticity. I have met Jed on a few occasions in London and the level of knowledge he has is quite astonishing. So to have someone like Jed spending his working day sourcing the watches we all love, is quite an amazing service and I'm more than happy to pay for this.......

Just my thoughts ....... So, however they are sourced...... I'm very pleased they are.......

well put.

[FremStar]

Originally Posted by CrownMe

Maron is fine. He's got Charlie Sheen behind him

Haha! Not to make light out of that situation, however, though those documents can be read, unless you know both parties personally there is more to the story. My only hope is that folks will stop generalizing on that issue due to what is publicly available.

The vintage Rolex landscape has already started to shift and the final outcome of that case may change the way we collect vintage wristwatches as we know it.

To me, both gentlemen are good guys as I have been around both on more than several occasions behind closed doors and as I have stated before sometimes even the "experts" can get it wrong.

My final comments on this thread.

[gelroy]

Originally Posted by FremStar

The Daytona sale that Christies had a few months ago is the exception as there were 4 individuals who drove those Daytona prices through the stratosphere.

do you have any proof or more info about that statement?

[bluemartinifan]

Originally Posted by springer

I can't speak for HQ Milton, but Ku's "amazing condition" watches are interesting, to say the least.

John a fact-based post is so much more meaningful to the forum versus a drive by opinion. Please share your facts.

[psv]

And let's face it, the watches that surface on various dealers' websites or on VRF etc is limited amount of the watches that are in circulation. Many, if not most, impressive pieces trade directly from collector to collector, often via well-placed middle-men Moran, Shear, Ku and quite a few others, whom all know each other. But as stated, especially as prices are going through the roof, the space is getting crowed and true, honest pieces are getting increasingly hard to find.

[CrownMe]

Originally Posted by bluemartinifan

John a fact-based post is so much more meaningful to the forum versus a drive by opinion. Please share your facts.

i believe we have moved on from the negativity