Achtung, anyone who cares about punched papers

[psv]

Originally Posted by greekbum

As far as fakes etc is concerned the vintage market is very small when compared to the modern market IMHO.1% I say.

True fakes are usually pretty easy to spot, even for non-pros, but I do expect that abuses around watches cobbleded together, fake papers etc will increase. Vintage collecting will become even more popular and as the Asian Tigers grow in financial strenght so will the demand for unique and/or complete/full set pieces, thus a certain element of society will seek to take advantage of that.

[jedly1]

[QUOTE=TurboWatch;2813514]The vintage market isn't what it used to be.



no in many many ways its much better these days ..these things are nothing new, and really the fact it happens shouldn't be a shock as it has happened for years...the difference is that the net allows us to get on top of it a lot quicker....the shocker here is that it allegedly relates to someone who has so publicly built a reputation off the back of it, rather than quietly sitting in a back room feeding stuff into the market.

in terms of fake parts etc, the speed of dissemination and anaylsis is lightining quick compared to how it used to be.

The real difference is that in the old days people used to buy stuff and never find out there was anything wrong....trust me you don't want to see some of the stuff that people bought pre 2000 and offer in px.....its one of the worst feelings in the world having to tell someone the watch they have been wearing proudly for a decade is a total fake :(

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by jedly1

The real difference is that in the old days people used to buy stuff and never find out there was anything wrong....trust me you don't want to see some of the stuff that people bought pre 2000 and offer in px.....its one of the worst feelings in the world having to tell someone the watch they have been wearing proudly for a decade is a total fake :(

+1, I too was wondering the same, if watch collecting with all the information available at our fingertips is still a risky proposition now, always wondered how bad it used to be before the internet,a huge hit and miss affair for sure and with dealers who didn't really bother about all period correct original parts on watches back then maybe and the majority of collectors not knowing any better!

[jedly1]

The thing to remember is that we are but a tiny fraction of the watch world.., the guys that come to this hobby in recent times through the net dont realise it but they have standards for what they seek in the highest few percent of whats out there , our end of the hobby isnt perfect ...but then by definition it never can be, and to be blunt if it was all black and white there would be no fun in it......to us we are purists demanding the highest levels and standards

.....to the majority out there though, us internet guys with our eye for quality and detail are but geeky, anoraky obsessives sados who need to get a grip.................................except me obviosuly

...its my opnion only but the reason the vintage watch world is better today is because our numbers are growing and their numbers are shrinking ....

[nch209]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Around 2 years ago when new collectors where telling me they only want boxed sets I told them in over 20 years of collecting I had only come across a dozen or so rare and desirable sport models that had papers etc from original owners and that to expect this is unrealistic. Some didn't listen to my advise and went to the dealers that had an endless supply of rare and desirable sets. I was looking when there was no internet and the ratio to find 1 with papers then was very low BUT they did come around but not daily or weekly and not 1 after the other.In the USA the majority of people don't hold on to things and these watches have traded hands dozens of times. In other parts of the world people don't sell there stuff easily and the ratio is different. When I saw papers selling for 1-2 even 3k I knew what was going on and why.There was a demand from collectors for complete sets but there was no supply so SOME created the supply and met the demand. This is nothing new to me as I have witnessed this and more in all these years. My experience and eyes have told me its NOT the little guy doing the majority of this but the most seasoned and experienced. One might ask why? Greed and easy money. Now I have also told the same collectors who want like new NOS (NEVER POLISHED) rare and desirable sport models that finding 1 is like a needle in a haystack. YES they do exist people have them but they are rare and NOT cheap.Wear a new watch for 2 years and show me what it looks like? Not a watch you just payed 8k for but $1-$300 a tool watch as they say.There is DEMAND for them and I see plenty like new NOS cased ones for sale recently (1 seller has an endless supply of these also) and if I go back even 3 years ago I dont recall many if any.

Nikos has pretty much summed it up. Quite sad, I must say. I will be sticking with the local one owner vintage watches that I know the history....

[jamesw]

Vintage Rolex is still very appealing but some of the gloss has rubbed off.

[swatty]

Originally Posted by jamesw

Vintage Rolex is still very appealing but some of the gloss has rubbed off.

Makes you really want to buy the seller

[arttay10]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

They are now a little more educated in the ways of the dark arts.

I think Paul has raised a valid point in respect of the 'dark arts'....

Lets face it - I am the first to say, I had no idea this could be done let alone know what machinery and tools can be used 'today' to replicate things from 20 years ago plus..

The trouble is - to learn what you need to know regarding re-cases, fake papers etc, etc.. you need to learn a similar level of knowledge to that of the fakers themselves..

Now I know that nobody is going to post how exactly these things are done - for obvious reasons, which I fully support.. but,
knowledge is power and it seems that this 'knowledge' seems already known and is shared amoungst the more experienced collectors and well known names on the forums - its seems everybody else has to wait untill someone 'blows the whistle' so to speak.....

Its sad.....

[DiamondJack]

With current prices of some vintage watches and increasing demand from the Far East, this was bound to happen and probably has been the case for quite a few years.

I raised a question in a post a while back about what appeared to be a sudden influx of tropical dials and faded bezels.... all being sold at a premium to an original.

The bottom line is the market gets what the market wants..... and with modern technology and printing techniques, I can't believe the potential profit involved is not tempting people who have the capability to produce an altered original dial that would pass serious scrutiny or papers that would do the same for the increased profit available.

But, ultimately, I would still prefer B&P with my watches if I can get them but tend to look for watches that have most of the peripheral papers like original receipt, HP papers plus any service receipts.

I would be far more suspicious about a watch just with the Rolex guarantee on it's own since the sort of person who was actually bothered to keep things like the box and the papers back in the 70's when value was not attached to keeping them..... kept absolutely EVERYTHING !!!! not just the guarantee.

[tattooedfagin]

this may be old news for some but as this is now out in the open it will be interesting to see if those instigated in this sad affair make public what they know & not just for their own reputation.

[CaveDiver]

Originally Posted by jedly1

The real difference is that in the old days people used to buy stuff and never find out there was anything wrong....trust me you don't want to see some of the stuff that people bought pre 2000 and offer in px.....its one of the worst feelings in the world having to tell someone the watch they have been wearing proudly for a decade is a total fake :(

Jed, you bring up some good points,,, how about fake service records from pre 2000. Are there blank folded service cards out there use to show providence? Or, maybe provided by watchmakers to imply Rolex serviced the watch?

[cgjane]

I really do not understand WHY people will pay a premium for B&P.

You cannot wear the box or the papers.

I almost jumped into vintage last week on 1680 Red Sub with B&P. Because I WANTED a RED on my wrist badly (at that time).

It was a full 4k more than 1680 reds with no papers. At the last moment I decided not to buy and wait for a 8-9k Red to show up.

[BH13GMT]

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

Jed, you bring up some good points,,, how about fake service records from pre 2000. Are there blank folded service cards out there use to show providence? Or, maybe provided by watchmakers to imply Rolex serviced the watch?

Can Rolex cross reference the serial number and clarify how many RSC visits the watch has had?

[CaveDiver]

Originally Posted by BH13GMT

Can Rolex cross reference the serial number and clarify how many RSC visits the watch has had?

Not Rolex USA.. Tried... Tired to go back to a 1995 service and was told they went to new computer system and lost/did not carry forward records. Whether that is a bugger off or for real, that is my experience. And that experience was with a watch that has been in the family for 40 years.

[conrail]

Originally Posted by cgjane

I really do not understand WHY people will pay a premium for B&P.

You cannot wear the box or the papers.

I almost jumped into vintage last week on 1680 Red Sub with B&P. Because I WANTED a RED on my wrist badly (at that time).

It was a full 4k more than 1680 reds with no papers. At the last moment I decided not to buy and wait for a 8-9k Red to show up.

Because a true, original full set is truthfully very scarce. Nobody saved stuff like papers, boxes, hang tags back then like we do now. It is impressive that stuff survives to this day. As to the amount of premium, the market determines that - if someone is willing to pay it, someone will charge it. I personally agree, $4k+ premium just for the set is crazy IMO unless you're looking at it as some kind of long-term investment.

[tattooedfagin]

so can anyone shed any further light on the whole 5/6 dot certificate scenario & whether or not there are significant years for both ?

[buffy]

Originally Posted by cgjane

I really do not understand WHY people will pay a premium for B&P.

You cannot wear the box or the papers.

I almost jumped into vintage last week on 1680 Red Sub with B&P. Because I WANTED a RED on my wrist badly (at that time).

It was a full 4k more than 1680 reds with no papers. At the last moment I decided not to buy and wait for a 8-9k Red to show up.

For the 4k more you could almost get a extra white 1680!

[dddrees]

Interesting reading, this is exactly why I come to TRF. To those who have decided to share your opinions, your experience, and knowledge thank you for sharing.

Although this doesn't shock me, I am disappointed as to how some will go to such lengths to take advantage of others.

[Welshwatchman]

... but does it make you trust the trusted any less?

Not me.

Since the "cat is out of the bag" both buyer and trusted seller will know the score and honest pieces will be sold in the usual (infrequent) quantities.

The game is up for the schemers, that's all; at least punched paperwork-wise.

[Johny]

i read in the postings that... stacks of genuine blank papers can be bought at most european watch fairs and that if you have the details they will punch them for you. price...40 euro.

[Chris B]

On the lighter side,...

[Submarino]

Originally Posted by Johny

i read in the postings that... stacks of genuine blank papers can be bought at most european watch fairs and that if you have the details they will punch them for you. price...40 euro.

How scary!!!

I guess even 'buying the seller' can get really tricky nowadays.

[tattooedfagin]

i've bought from one of the sellers mentioned on the VRF paperwork thread & only after doing much homework & seeing many, many glowing references for that particular seller. the entire deal went smoothly & as the case back showed no service markings in the last 20 years it was immediately sent to RSC London & returned 16 weeks later with a clean bill of health, no nasty surprises & everything as it should be. i've recommended the seller to others who i know went ahead & made purchases too, they also sent their watch off to RSC where it too returned without issues.
are the papers the seller provided with my watch 100% original to 1973 or, were they lost to the sands of time, has the watch since been matched with a freshly punched warranty bought from a European watch fair i don't know but, i'm happy my watch has been to RSC UK, stripped, serviced & returned to me as 100% genuine with 2 years warranty & after all costs still came in several £0000 less than any UK sourced watch i saw.
hoping to see a response from those involved as these are serious allegations.

[bb3188]

Originally Posted by tattooedfagin

i've bought from one of the sellers mentioned on the VRF paperwork thread & only after doing much homework & seeing many, many glowing references for that particular seller. .......
are the papers the seller provided with my watch 100% original to 1973 or, were they lost to the sands of time, has the watch since been matched with a freshly punched warranty bought from a European watch fair i don't know but, i'm happy my watch has been to RSC UK, stripped, serviced & returned to me as 100% genuine with 2 years warranty & after all costs still came in several £0000 less than any UK sourced watch i saw.
hoping to see a response from those involved as these are serious allegations.

Chad, that is a fair question.
you and other on this forum paid good money (in good faith) to purchase from this "trusted seller".
I think at the very least, the seller needed to post a response...... So far as I am aware and (to caveat in my opinion only), no response has been fortcoming
I too ( and I suspect like many) wait with bated breath......

[kryan5732]

And I thought the guitar business was bad!

[inspires]

Chad,

I too have purchased multiple watches from one of the sellers in question in the thread and had no issues with the sets I've purchased. Mind you, both my sets are double punched papers and with AD stamp.

I have no reservations with recommending that seller as I am very happy with the sets I've purchased and the communication I had with him pre/post sale.

Cheers,

Eric

Originally Posted by tattooedfagin

i've bought from one of the sellers mentioned on the VRF paperwork thread & only after doing much homework & seeing many, many glowing references for that particular seller. the entire deal went smoothly & as the case back showed no service markings in the last 20 years it was immediately sent to RSC London & returned 16 weeks later with a clean bill of health, no nasty surprises & everything as it should be. i've recommended the seller to others who i know went ahead & made purchases too, they also sent their watch off to RSC where it too returned without issues.
are the papers the seller provided with my watch 100% original to 1973 or, were they lost to the sands of time, has the watch since been matched with a freshly punched warranty bought from a European watch fair i don't know but, i'm happy my watch has been to RSC UK, stripped, serviced & returned to me as 100% genuine with 2 years warranty & after all costs still came in several £0000 less than any UK sourced watch i saw.
hoping to see a response from those involved as these are serious allegations.

[Ebruner]

I have bought a watch from one these guys also, and I am happy with the purchase, BUT I will tell you ASSUME NOTHING, and ask every question DIRECTLY before you buy.

-Eddie

Originally Posted by inspires

Chad,

I too have purchased multiple watches from one of the sellers in question in the thread and had no issues with the sets I've purchased. Mind you, both my sets are double punched papers and with AD stamp.

I have no reservations with recommending that seller as I am very happy with the sets I've purchased and the communication I had with him pre/post sale.

Cheers,

Eric

[soundserious]

somehow i'm happier than ever with my ratty vintages, mint dials and mint papers...what a scam!

[Chris B]

Originally Posted by viknijjar

somehow i'm happier than ever with my ratty vintages, mint dials and mint papers...what a scam!

Now gonna use my POJ as an ice hockey puck !!

[tattooedfagin]

although some of the things brought up in the VRF thread cast a shadow i'm looking forward to a genuine response to all this from those involved, regardless of what may / may not have gone on there seems to be one voice in all of this shouting the loudest, the very same voice that recently started a spat on here with King Tafari & then again regarding Kowloon paperwork.

i'm still pretty new to all this having only been buying Rolex for 5/6 years, but i have to say that i was a little surprised to see so many vintage complete sets available but put it down to experienced dealers having better contacts & deeper pockets......a sad week where one voice has tried to end 2/3 careers