ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

montecristo · 8 April 2007, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocD

Tombstone wrote that sometimes a dealer will actually ship a box, with just the papers and box, implying that you can actually wear the watch home.

I personally don't know any legitimate AD that would allow this practice, since this is really FRAUD. Since the package has to be insured for the full value of the watch, etc., if the watch is not really in the package, then it is actually "fraud", since it is being sent as an insured package containing a watch, yet there is no watch in the package.

Therefore, every AD I spoke with gave me the EXACT same answer, telling me that if I asked for the watch to be shipped to avoid paying tax, the watch HAD to actually be in the box.

You don't have to insure the package for full value if you don't want to.
They tell you that the watch has to be in the box because thats what they have to say.

Try buying one and walk out the store with the watch and tell them to ship the box only, chances are they will let you.

By the way, you can always reroute packages back to your local address with fedex by just calling them with your tracking number.

Welshwatchman · 8 April 2007, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanjoP

Thanks everybody! I had a bet with my AD that if I could draw the most replies to a Rolex question on page 1, of general Rolex category, he would give me a stupendous discount. I won!!!

Nope, don't believe that for a second.

Blue Bull · 8 April 2007, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

Nope, don't believe that for a second.

I agree,our Cymru friend.Very dubious,to say the least.

padi56 · 8 April 2007, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanjoP

Thanks everybody! I had a bet with my AD that if I could draw the most replies to a Rolex question on page 1, of general Rolex category, he would give me a stupendous discount. I won!!!

Well lets see your proof of how much you got off with your stupendous discount.Or is it just

just like what you accused the fine members of TRF of doing.

JJ Irani · 8 April 2007, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padi56

Well lets see your proof of how much you got off with your stupendous discount.Or is it just

just like what you accused the fine members of TRF of doing.

Touché, Padi.....excellent point....well driven home!!

DocD · 8 April 2007, 05:37 AM

[QUOTE=montecristo;203836]You don't have to insure the package for full value if you don't want to.
They tell you that the watch has to be in the box because thats what they have to say.

Try buying one and walk out the store with the watch and tell them to ship the box only, chances are they will let you.

By the way, you can always reroute packages back to your local address with fedex by just calling them with your tracking number.[/QUOT

You stated that I should try buying one and walking out the store with the watch on my wrist and telling them to ship the box only and "chances are they will let you". That may be true in your area, but the exact reason I wrote my post is because my experience proved otherwise. I went to 5 different AD's in my geographic area, and NONE of them would honor that exact request. Each Rolex AD said that they would be happy to not charge tax if the watch was shipped out of state, but insisted that the watch HAD to be in the box when it was shipped and that I could NOT wear the watch out the door, or that constituted fraud. They said if I walked out the store with the watch, the transaction was made in that state and the tax would have to be charged, etc., etc. I guess it's simply a matter of integrity, and obviously the stores I dealt with have integrity.

Blown Wide Open · 8 April 2007, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanjoP

We are not comparing US Vs Qatar here. What percentage did you actually get from your AD in your Country and town.

I received 15% off my datejust in 2005 in Wilkes-Barre Pa.

PAtrick

montecristo · 8 April 2007, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocD

You stated that I should try buying one and walking out the store with the watch on my wrist and telling them to ship the box only and "chances are they will let you". That may be true in your area, but the exact reason I wrote my post is because my experience proved otherwise. I went to 5 different AD's in my geographic area, and NONE of them would honor that exact request. Each Rolex AD said that they would be happy to not charge tax if the watch was shipped out of state, but insisted that the watch HAD to be in the box when it was shipped and that I could NOT wear the watch out the door, or that constituted fraud. They said if I walked out the store with the watch, the transaction was made in that state and the tax would have to be charged, etc., etc. I guess it's simply a matter of integrity, and obviously the stores I dealt with have integrity.

I'd suppose, but I would never discuss those issues with the AD until the watch is paid for and its on my wrist, and if they try to raise issues about tax and want to ship the watch with the box for legality and tax reasons, they can give me my money back and never expect my business again.

Like I said before, this is something that you just don't have to ask and if they say no after you bought the watch, just ask for the money back.

Anyway, I never had to argue with any AD for the tax part, if you are trying to suggest that what I do or the way AD does business is fraudulent and lacks integrity, the whole idea of shipping the watch out of state to avoid tax was based on the same idea, executing it with or without breaking rules doesn't really make much of a difference. I would take a AD that lacks integrity in this area anyday over one that insists on shipping my watch out of state.

DocD · 8 April 2007, 09:40 AM

I guess you and I have different philosophies and/or values. I don't try to pull a "fast one" on the AD by placing the watch on my wrist and THEN telling them I don't expect to pay tax, etc., etc. Basically, if the AD is not charging tax, he/she is OBLIGATED to send the watch out of state or he/she is breaking the law. To get technical, the purchaser is actually obiligated to report the purchase and pay tax in the state he/she resides. But that's the responsibility of the purchaser, NOT the seller.

So my point is simple. If an AD is willing not to charge me tax and send the watch to my home or office which is in a different state from the store, then I will not jeopordize his/her business by asking him/her to to something that's illegal or fraudulent. I'll be happy to wait one day and receive the watch the next day.

When a patient comes into my office and asks me to do something fraudulent or illegal or to bill an insurance company fraudulently or illegally, it is something I certainly would never do, therefore it's something I would not ask any OTHER business to do on my behalf. Therefore, if an AD tells me that shipping an empty box is fraudulent, then the topic is closed and I'll be happy to have the watch shipped overnight to my address to avoid the tax.

I don't see how this is a problem with anyone, and I don't see why you would walk out of an AD's store in this situation. But I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

montecristo · 8 April 2007, 10:10 AM

Good for you.

John Ireland · 8 April 2007, 10:58 AM

how much did the dealer pay. Rolex may insist on a limit of 10% on discounts but if a dealer is hurting and needs some cash, it seems logical that they might discount more as long as they are comfortable it won't get back to Rolex. Or if they are doing great volume (and know their customers) they may also offer greater discounts...because it may also boost their standing with Rolex and get them higher allotment volume of high demand models.

Business is business. Everyone does what they have to do to feed the bulldog.

If there are any ADs here who would like to share with us the price they pay for a Rolex, that would be truly interesting.

Ragu · 8 April 2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanjoP

Thanks everybody! I had a bet with my AD that if I could draw the most replies to a Rolex question on page 1, of general Rolex category, he would give me a stupendous discount. I won!!!

Ok,
lets see the receit and AD's name and address!

Sorry,
I was beat to my reply.

Tombstone · 8 April 2007, 01:52 PM

No its' not fraud if you simply ship the box and papers to comply with the fact the watch is going out of state. The box does not get insured as it would be a waste of money. Who cares if your box gets lost. If you ship any Rolex Fed Ex as many dealers do I hope you don't get your package lost or taken as Fed Ex will cut you a check for $500.00 so you would be the true looser as $500.00 will not cover the price of the band, hence the reason for wearing the watch on you. Don't assume that everyone is dishonest.

astcell · 8 April 2007, 02:00 PM

Tombstone, 2 things here. First the watch MUST go out of state or it is fraud. Second, if your state has sales tax (most do, but not all) then you MUST declare the purchase on your tax form and send the tax money to the state when you file your taxes each year. This holds true for ALL mail order purchases.

Now if you buy out of state and pay no tax because the state has no sales tax, you are fine. If you buy in another country, you may owe upon re-entry to the US.

BUT..... if you walk OUT THE DOOR with the watch and have not paid sales tax because an empty box goes to your home state, the dealer is liable. He effectively gave you a 7% discount, or whatever his state rate is. And he can be liable for not collecting the proper tax. That can cost him his business license, and more.

Regardless of if you will pay your state tax, if they ever find you in an audit, or just what you can get away with is not important. In all likelihood you will get away with it. But hey we all drive 1mph over the speed limit and get away with it. That does not make it right.

I wonder if the moderators think this topic is being talked to death. We sure do not want to be known as "the board that tells you how to save money on a Rolex by having you not paying your properly owed taxes."

jac67 · 8 April 2007, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

Can you show us that in writing from your AD? I do not believe this to be true. I would like to see some hard core evidence to such a claim.

Remember those words??

Quote:

Originally Posted by padi56

Well lets see your proof of how much you got off with your stupendous discount.Or is it just

just like what you accused the fine members of TRF of doing.

WELL SAID!!!

DocD · 9 April 2007, 12:53 AM

Astcell,
You obviously "get it". Thanks.

9 April 2007, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocD

I guess you and I have different philosophies and/or values. I don't try to pull a "fast one" on the AD by placing the watch on my wrist and THEN telling them I don't expect to pay tax, etc., etc. Basically, if the AD is not charging tax, he/she is OBLIGATED to send the watch out of state or he/she is breaking the law. To get technical, the purchaser is actually obiligated to report the purchase and pay tax in the state he/she resides. But that's the responsibility of the purchaser, NOT the seller.

So my point is simple. If an AD is willing not to charge me tax and send the watch to my home or office which is in a different state from the store, then I will not jeopordize his/her business by asking him/her to to something that's illegal or fraudulent. I'll be happy to wait one day and receive the watch the next day.

When a patient comes into my office and asks me to do something fraudulent or illegal or to bill an insurance company fraudulently or illegally, it is something I certainly would never do, therefore it's something I would not ask any OTHER business to do on my behalf. Therefore, if an AD tells me that shipping an empty box is fraudulent, then the topic is closed and I'll be happy to have the watch shipped overnight to my address to avoid the tax.

I don't see how this is a problem with anyone, and I don't see why you would walk out of an AD's store in this situation. But I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

Good post.

BanjoP · 9 April 2007, 01:53 AM

Well lets see your proof of how much you got off with your stupendous discount.Or is it just

just like what you accused the fine members of TRF of doing.

I will show only as much as my fellow TRF members were willing to show me. Which was only lip service and receipts without AD names and model types bought. How does it feel now! All we can do is just wonder what was paid by whom and for what!

bwalkerVintage · 9 April 2007, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanjoP

I will show only as much as my fellow TRF members were willing to show me. Which was only lip service and receipts without AD names and model types bought. How does it feel now! All we can do is just wonder what was paid by whom and for what!

Only thing is - we didn't question anyone prior to your antics and still won't - why not just take a hike. This forum doesn't really
appreciate knuckleheads

that just like to stir things up.

Prince · 9 April 2007, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BanjoP

...All we can do is just wonder what was paid by whom and for what!

I personally don't give a rat's rear end!

montecristo · 9 April 2007, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombstone

No its' not fraud if you simply ship the box and papers to comply with the fact the watch is going out of state. The box does not get insured as it would be a waste of money. Who cares if your box gets lost. If you ship any Rolex Fed Ex as many dealers do I hope you don't get your package lost or taken as Fed Ex will cut you a check for $500.00 so you would be the true looser as $500.00 will not cover the price of the band, hence the reason for wearing the watch on you. Don't assume that everyone is dishonest.

While the whole arrangement of shipping out of state to avoid sales tax is shady at best, I honestly am not sure what DocD is trying to prove.

At first I thought he meant that the AD told him that this is a no-no and he wants to know how others does it, then he criticizes me and the AD for lacking integrity and cheating taxes, I'd suppose by informing others to pay their sales tax and to be an upright citizen makes him sleep better at night or something.

I mean he did said he went to 5 different places asking if this could be done, for a goody-good person with integrity that he claims to be, you would think he gave up after the first AD.

Insert obligatory not paying your sales tax is bad yada yada.

DocD · 9 April 2007, 03:32 AM

Monetecristo,
I'm afraid that you lack reading comprehension skills. I know EXACTLY how to avoid paying taxes, and it's to have an item shipped out of state. If you can read, I also went on to state that technically it is the obligation of the purchaser to declare the item and pay the taxes, but it is NOT the obligation of the seller once it is shipped out of the state.

My ENTIRE point, if you can comprehend the matter, was based on the simple fact that IF an AD was going to waive taxes, yes, IF the AD was going to waive taxes, then the AD MUST actually ship the watch out of state and not simply send an empty box. If you actually walk out of the store with the watch on your wrist, then the transaction took place in THAT state and the tax is due. Period.

YOU are the one that said if the AD didn't play the game "your way" and didn't let you walk out with the watch on your wrist and send the "empty box" you would cancel the transaction. And I'm the one that stated that I wouldn't ask the AD to do something illegal. If I decide to have the watch sent to my home in another state and then not report the taxes, that's MY decision and I may or may not report that tax, etc. But I will NEVER ask another businessman to jeopordize HIS business for my benefit and ask HIM to do something illegal or fraudulent. And not charging me tax for an item, and letting me walk out the store WITH the item is fraud, no matter how you spin it.

And THAT was my only point.

Now do you finally get it???

montecristo · 9 April 2007, 04:05 AM

Lets not have this argument as people are always going to have different values.

My belief is that if ultimately the purpose/goal of the transaction is to avoid tax by breaking some rules, it makes better sense to break it with someone who are willing to participate.

For what its worth, If you would rather to have your watch ship to a different address for pickup for whatever tax reasons, thats entirely your business and I wouldn't bother wasting my time commenting on it. My original reply was under the assumption that want suggestions on how to get it done, I haven't had any experience where the salesperson have to raise the issue about taxes in my experience, and would cancel any transaction in a heart beat if anyone tries to inconvenient me in anyway, if that makes them a bunch of tax cheating, integrity lacking crooks, oh well.

I knew what you were saying, just don't understand why you would make a big fuss over it, thats all.

Cheers.

BanjoP · 9 April 2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avalon

Why is everyobody feeding the troll?

Forgive them, for they know not what they do!

BanjoP · 9 April 2007, 07:15 AM

Just checking in on you guys, keep them replies coming!

astcell · 9 April 2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montecristo

...My belief is that if ultimately the purpose/goal of the transaction is to avoid tax by breaking some rules, it makes better sense to break it with someone who are willing to participate...

Um, maybe not. That is called collusion and someone will go to jail for it. Just PLANNING to do it is conspiracy, and conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor is a felony, even if you do not go through with it.

Maybe the next time you buy a Rolex you can take your lawyer with you and ask him which one he likes. Sounds like he will be wearing it when you need to give him a retainer post haste.

BanjoP · 10 April 2007, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

Nope, don't believe that for a second.

You must have a short memory span.

BanjoP · 10 April 2007, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Bull

I agree,our Cymru friend.Very dubious,to say the least.

Cymru friend, very dubious! are you kidding me

BanjoP · 10 April 2007, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blown Wide Open

I received 15% off my datejust in 2005 in Wilkes-Barre Pa.

PAtrick

You got ripped my friend! Your head here--->

BanjoP · 10 April 2007, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Bull

I agree,our Cymru friend.Very dubious,to say the least.

You are a merchant Rolex Dealer aren't you!

8 April 2007, 10:10 AM	#70
montecristo "TRF" Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Real Name: Ken Location: New York Watch: 116234 DateJust Posts: 1,769	Good for you. __________________ My Rolex reference books collection: The Rolex Report: An Unauthorized Reference Book For The Rolex Enthusiast Rolex Wristwatches: An Unauthorized History (Schiffer Book for Collectors) (Hardcover) Vintage Rolex Sports Models: A Complete Visual Reference & Unauthorized History (Hardcover)

8 April 2007, 10:58 AM	#71
John Ireland "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 191	The real question isn't how much one of you paid, it is how much did the dealer pay. Rolex may insist on a limit of 10% on discounts but if a dealer is hurting and needs some cash, it seems logical that they might discount more as long as they are comfortable it won't get back to Rolex. Or if they are doing great volume (and know their customers) they may also offer greater discounts...because it may also boost their standing with Rolex and get them higher allotment volume of high demand models. Business is business. Everyone does what they have to do to feed the bulldog. If there are any ADs here who would like to share with us the price they pay for a Rolex, that would be truly interesting.

9 April 2007, 01:53 AM	#78
BanjoP Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: USA Posts: 80	Well lets see your proof of how much you got off with your stupendous discount.Or is it justjust like what you accused the fine members of TRF of doing. I will show only as much as my fellow TRF members were willing to show me. Which was only lip service and receipts without AD names and model types bought. How does it feel now! All we can do is just wonder what was paid by whom and for what!

9 April 2007, 04:05 AM	#83
montecristo "TRF" Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Real Name: Ken Location: New York Watch: 116234 DateJust Posts: 1,769	Lets not have this argument as people are always going to have different values. My belief is that if ultimately the purpose/goal of the transaction is to avoid tax by breaking some rules, it makes better sense to break it with someone who are willing to participate. For what its worth, If you would rather to have your watch ship to a different address for pickup for whatever tax reasons, thats entirely your business and I wouldn't bother wasting my time commenting on it. My original reply was under the assumption that want suggestions on how to get it done, I haven't had any experience where the salesperson have to raise the issue about taxes in my experience, and would cancel any transaction in a heart beat if anyone tries to inconvenient me in anyway, if that makes them a bunch of tax cheating, integrity lacking crooks, oh well. I knew what you were saying, just don't understand why you would make a big fuss over it, thats all. Cheers. __________________ My Rolex reference books collection: The Rolex Report: An Unauthorized Reference Book For The Rolex Enthusiast Rolex Wristwatches: An Unauthorized History (Schiffer Book for Collectors) (Hardcover) Vintage Rolex Sports Models: A Complete Visual Reference & Unauthorized History (Hardcover)

8 April 2007, 05:37 AM	#66
DocD "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Jersey Watch: Submariner date Posts: 298	[QUOTE=montecristo;203836]You don't have to insure the package for full value if you don't want to. They tell you that the watch has to be in the box because thats what they have to say. Try buying one and walk out the store with the watch and tell them to ship the box only, chances are they will let you. By the way, you can always reroute packages back to your local address with fedex by just calling them with your tracking number.[/QUOT You stated that I should try buying one and walking out the store with the watch on my wrist and telling them to ship the box only and "chances are they will let you". That may be true in your area, but the exact reason I wrote my post is because my experience proved otherwise. I went to 5 different AD's in my geographic area, and NONE of them would honor that exact request. Each Rolex AD said that they would be happy to not charge tax if the watch was shipped out of state, but insisted that the watch HAD to be in the box when it was shipped and that I could NOT wear the watch out the door, or that constituted fraud. They said if I walked out the store with the watch, the transaction was made in that state and the tax would have to be charged, etc., etc. I guess it's simply a matter of integrity, and obviously the stores I dealt with have integrity.

8 April 2007, 09:40 AM	#69
DocD "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Jersey Watch: Submariner date Posts: 298	I guess you and I have different philosophies and/or values. I don't try to pull a "fast one" on the AD by placing the watch on my wrist and THEN telling them I don't expect to pay tax, etc., etc. Basically, if the AD is not charging tax, he/she is OBLIGATED to send the watch out of state or he/she is breaking the law. To get technical, the purchaser is actually obiligated to report the purchase and pay tax in the state he/she resides. But that's the responsibility of the purchaser, NOT the seller. So my point is simple. If an AD is willing not to charge me tax and send the watch to my home or office which is in a different state from the store, then I will not jeopordize his/her business by asking him/her to to something that's illegal or fraudulent. I'll be happy to wait one day and receive the watch the next day. When a patient comes into my office and asks me to do something fraudulent or illegal or to bill an insurance company fraudulently or illegally, it is something I certainly would never do, therefore it's something I would not ask any OTHER business to do on my behalf. Therefore, if an AD tells me that shipping an empty box is fraudulent, then the topic is closed and I'll be happy to have the watch shipped overnight to my address to avoid the tax. I don't see how this is a problem with anyone, and I don't see why you would walk out of an AD's store in this situation. But I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

8 April 2007, 01:52 PM	#73
Tombstone "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Real Name: Richard Location: LV, NV Watch: LV Sub and others Posts: 2,689	No its' not fraud if you simply ship the box and papers to comply with the fact the watch is going out of state. The box does not get insured as it would be a waste of money. Who cares if your box gets lost. If you ship any Rolex Fed Ex as many dealers do I hope you don't get your package lost or taken as Fed Ex will cut you a check for $500.00 so you would be the true looser as $500.00 will not cover the price of the band, hence the reason for wearing the watch on you. Don't assume that everyone is dishonest.

8 April 2007, 02:00 PM	#74
astcell "TRF" Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Real Name: Robert Location: Angelus Oaks, CA Watch: 116713 Posts: 6,828	Tombstone, 2 things here. First the watch MUST go out of state or it is fraud. Second, if your state has sales tax (most do, but not all) then you MUST declare the purchase on your tax form and send the tax money to the state when you file your taxes each year. This holds true for ALL mail order purchases. Now if you buy out of state and pay no tax because the state has no sales tax, you are fine. If you buy in another country, you may owe upon re-entry to the US. BUT..... if you walk OUT THE DOOR with the watch and have not paid sales tax because an empty box goes to your home state, the dealer is liable. He effectively gave you a 7% discount, or whatever his state rate is. And he can be liable for not collecting the proper tax. That can cost him his business license, and more. Regardless of if you will pay your state tax, if they ever find you in an audit, or just what you can get away with is not important. In all likelihood you will get away with it. But hey we all drive 1mph over the speed limit and get away with it. That does not make it right. I wonder if the moderators think this topic is being talked to death. We sure do not want to be known as "the board that tells you how to save money on a Rolex by having you not paying your properly owed taxes."

9 April 2007, 12:53 AM	#76
DocD "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Jersey Watch: Submariner date Posts: 298	Astcell, You obviously "get it". Thanks.

9 April 2007, 03:32 AM	#82
DocD "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New Jersey Watch: Submariner date Posts: 298	Monetecristo, I'm afraid that you lack reading comprehension skills. I know EXACTLY how to avoid paying taxes, and it's to have an item shipped out of state. If you can read, I also went on to state that technically it is the obligation of the purchaser to declare the item and pay the taxes, but it is NOT the obligation of the seller once it is shipped out of the state. My ENTIRE point, if you can comprehend the matter, was based on the simple fact that IF an AD was going to waive taxes, yes, IF the AD was going to waive taxes, then the AD MUST actually ship the watch out of state and not simply send an empty box. If you actually walk out of the store with the watch on your wrist, then the transaction took place in THAT state and the tax is due. Period. YOU are the one that said if the AD didn't play the game "your way" and didn't let you walk out with the watch on your wrist and send the "empty box" you would cancel the transaction. And I'm the one that stated that I wouldn't ask the AD to do something illegal. If I decide to have the watch sent to my home in another state and then not report the taxes, that's MY decision and I may or may not report that tax, etc. But I will NEVER ask another businessman to jeopordize HIS business for my benefit and ask HIM to do something illegal or fraudulent. And not charging me tax for an item, and letting me walk out the store WITH the item is fraud, no matter how you spin it. And THAT was my only point. Now do you finally get it???

9 April 2007, 07:15 AM	#85
BanjoP Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: USA Posts: 80	Just checking in on you guys, keep them replies coming!

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)