Red Submariner

[swish77]

Originally Posted by roh123

Well.. There are those that do value rarity high and that means they will fetch a higher price. Not like there are many great examples around in the market. I can agree with you as we both seem to value aesthetics before rarity but regardless a meters first in top collector condition will fetch more money than a feet first in similar quality. You and me are just not the buyers.. When not in collector condition I can see that the difference in price is much less as people buying watches in average condition or worse is less likely to care about rarity at all.

Rarity and value aren't always the same thing, in watch or art collecting. There are plenty of rare items in this world, or rare variations of a watch, that add no or little additional value. For example, matte 5512s are much more rare than matte 5513s, and the prices for each are not that much different, everything else being equal. And that's for a completely different reference number with a chronometer-rated movement! You would think that's much more important than whether feet or meters is listed first on a dial, IMHO. So much of the meters-first hype was pushed by dealers/sellers jacking up prices because a watch was a little older. That detail has nothing to do with condition.

I realize collectors always ask more for a meters-first watch, but that doesn't mean it sells at that price or is worth the extra money. I think there's a reason that the above-referenced HQ Milton meters-first red Sub hasn't sold for many weeks. It's way over-priced, and the fact that it's meters-first ain't that impressive, really. It's certainly not worth more than double what a feet-first red Sub would fetch, IMHO.

[scooba]

I hope Ed Delgado doesn't mind me sharing this ,

It will show the rarity of each Red Model

image004
image003

There is a sticky at the top of the vintage section sharing this information

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

Fun thread. Yes, of course a meters first sub is worth substantially more than a feet first based on rarity alone, as should a Mk1 be more than a Mk2 meters first.







Good stuff Baron. You are a serious hoarder. Why do you not follow anyone on instagram? Just curious. Have a good day.

Ahh, I follow everybody via my private Instagram. I use my watch page just for posts. Have a great day as well mate.

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by scooba

I hope Ed Delgado doesn't mind me sharing this ,

It will show the rarity of each Red Model

image004
image003

There is a sticky at the top of the vintage section sharing this information

images don't show

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I think this is a great topic and great to discuss.

I was merely trying to discuss many collectors feelings about meters vs ft examples. Many people share the same feelings as swish.

There are just as many mk's made of meters vs ft. mk 1-3 and then mk 4-6.

So "rarity" for the earlier examples is something I feel was created in the market place to command higher premiums, even higher than they already were.

We are also only speaking about a year or less between each mk's production.. So a mk3 1680 red isn't really that much older compared to a mk4 example.. we are talking a couple years. It's not like a gilt VS White...

I for one have noticed mk4,5,6 raise in value at an exponential rate when compared to the value of a general DRSD which has seemed to kind of just level off in value.

Now compare a ft first vs a meters first. The mk4,5,6 1680's have gained in value and so much popularity because they are more affordable than a meters first example. For many, that small detail isn't worth the premiums being asked for mk1,2,3

Now to make one thing clear, I never said a ft first was worth the same and or more than a meters first red.. I was just simply saying that they are catching up in value to their counter parts.

Many thanks and I now understand your point. This is a false statement however: "There are just as many mk's made of meters vs ft. mk 1-3 and then mk 4-6". Many more examples for feet first red 1680s were made as compared to their meters first counterparts.


And in vintage rolex, details matter. Everyday more.... If they didn't, a newman Daytona would be the same as a silver or black Daytona, no?

Be well.

[roh123]

Rarity does not mean a thing without demand. There is however a demand for meters first red subs in top condition.

Credit: drsd.com

(Guessing this is what scooba tried to post)

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

Rarity does not mean a thing without demand. There is however a demand for meters first red subs in top condition.

Credit: drsd.com

(Guessing this is what scooba tried to post)

There is a demand for top condition period

[roh123]

Originally Posted by SubKing

There is a demand for top condition period

Sure. Many collectors would prefer the rarity in this case. Just because you don’t value rarity doesn’t mean noone does.

I can’t believe we are still discussing this. Meters first in top condition will have a substantionally higher price than a later feet first. Period.

Still think different? Do show us where to find these cheap, rare things.

[scooba]

mine

http://sheartime.com/products/1969-r...ner-ref-1680-2

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

Sure. Many collectors would prefer the rarity in this case. Just because you don’t value rarity doesn’t mean noone does.

I can’t believe we are still discussing this. Meters first in top condition will have a substantionally higher price than a later feet first. Period.

Still think different? Do show us where to find these cheap, rare things.

Show me at which point I ever stated that?

I will say it again since you choose to only read what you want to read.

The ft first examples are catching up to meters first. I never said ft first were more. I think this is actually the 3rd or 4th time repeating this..

So translation on that means, meters first is worth more. However my opinion still stands that the interest is thinner these days in regards to meters first, for the reason being, many think the premium the meters firsts carry aren’t worth as much as they are asking, all because of that tiny little detail, “meters first”

[roh123]

Basically it is higher these days purely out of rarity. Back in the days every one was ”oh wow” over a meters first 5513, 1680 and whatever and this have passed. Today when people actually collect for financial motives a top meters first red sub is much more rare and will probably keep at least a 10k premium over an equally good feet first. As I don’t collect matte sports watches I don’t know prices exactly but the gap is probably bigger than ever as prices are so much higher today compared to a few years ago.

For watches in less than top condition I can see that no one cares to pay a premium. Then it is just a red sub.

[scooba]

Originally Posted by roh123

Rarity does not mean a thing without demand. There is however a demand for meters first red subs in top condition.

Credit: drsd.com

(Guessing this is what scooba tried to post)

Hi, Thx for posting

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

Basically it is higher these days purely out of rarity. Back in the days every one was ”oh wow” over a meters first 5513, 1680 and whatever and this have passed. Today when people actually collect for financial motives a top meters first red sub is much more rare and will probably keep at least a 10k premium over an equally good feet first. As I don’t collect matte sports watches I don’t know prices exactly but the gap is probably bigger than ever as prices are so much higher today compared to a few years ago.

For watches in less than top condition I can see that no one cares to pay a premium. Then it is just a red sub.

I completely disagree about that gap being larger now more than ever.
Which is why the piece posted in this thread on HQ will sit and sit and sit. No one is going to pay that premium..

The market has corrected on the DRSD and the market is also correcting on the meters first red subs. And that’s what makes a forum a forum, I can completely disagree with what you think to be truth. Just like you think many collectors steer clear from a watch case that has been recut by LAWW, when I know so many respected collectors with collections that would make a grown man cry, and they have more than one recut piece..

Pieces are changing, times are changing and collectors are changing, like it or not.

Look what happened to stamps and bubble backs, anything can happen.

Today, A meters first red on someone’s wrist vs a ft first red will raise equal eyebrows.

(Tropical pieces are a different story)

[mattedialdoc]

Originally Posted by scooba

mine



http://sheartime.com/products/1969-r...ner-ref-1680-2

Beautiful casework !!


------
Instagram: @mattedialdoc

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I completely disagree about that gap being larger now more than ever.
Which is why the piece posted in this thread on HQ will sit and sit and sit. No one is going to pay that premium..

The market has corrected on the DRSD and the market is also correcting on the meters first red subs. And that’s what makes a forum a forum, I can completely disagree with what you think to be truth. Just like you think many collectors steer clear from a watch case that has been recut by LAWW, when I know so many respected collectors with collections that would make a grown man cry, and they have more than one recut piece..

Things are changing, times are changing and collectors are changing, like it or not.

Look what happened to stamps and bubble backs, anything can happen.

In my opinion, the gap has narrowed but not by much. FF was 12-15k 2 years ago, today 15-20. This somewhat arrows the premium from 50 to 30% for any MF as compared to a FF in similar conditions.


You’ve mentioned that they are almost on par. This isn’t the case, at least to my knowledge of the market.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by scooba

mine



http://sheartime.com/products/1969-r...ner-ref-1680-2

Stunning case and set. Out of the 11 FF Red Subs I own, only 3 are unpolished.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

In my opinion, the gap has narrowed but not by much. FF was 12-15k 2 years ago, today 15-20. This somewhat arrows the premium from 50 to 30% for any MF as compared to a FF in similar conditions.


You’ve mentioned that they are almost on par. This isn’t the case, at least to my knowledge of the market.

I said they are catching up, different than almost on par. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I completely disagree about that gap being larger now more than ever.
Which is why the piece posted in this thread on HQ will sit and sit and sit. No one is going to pay that premium..

Jaceks watch is just not good enough. I’m sure it will sell eventually anyway.

I have absolutely no interest in red subs as I think they are overrated and boring in general. I would personally take a matte 5513 any day before a red sub. I just find your comments incorrect and uninformed. Just like Baron and Thomas does.

Have a nice evening

[jdmi32]

32K is no doubt steep, but it is so rare to find a full set Red Sub in that condition these days. I think that someone will eventually bite at or around that price.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by jdmi32

32K is no doubt steep, but it is so rare to find a full set Red Sub in that condition these days. I think that someone will eventually bite at or around that price.

They had one for 25k a year ago. Same condition , similarly a full set. Times have changed. Needless to say, I believe 30 might be a more appropriate price.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

Jaceks watch is just not good enough. I’m sure it will sell eventually anyway.

I have absolutely no interest in red subs as I think they are overrated and boring in general. I would personally take a matte 5513 any day before a red sub. I just find your comments incorrect and uninformed. Just like Baron and Thomas does.

Have a nice evening

Wow. Ok then.

So little interest in red subs to the point you’re hanging around in a red sub thread and want us to take you seriously as an authority on red subs, when you just admitted to having no interest in them?

That statement is far more absurd than any point I was trying to make.

Enjoy your matte 5513’s

[roh123]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Wow. Ok then. That statement is far more absurd than any point I was trying to make.

Enjoy your matte 5513’s

Well.. As I said; I don’t prefer any matte dial submariner and I do not own one. The date on the 1680 is just horrible to my liking so therefore I like a nodate 5512/5513 more. I prefer gilt when it comes to sport watches if that matters to this discussion. Much more charm in my opinion. My Daytona is matte and to be honest I find that dead and boring as well compared to my gilt watches.

Just out of curiosity and to end this. How much would you say a top, top meters first respective feet first 1680 should cost. Watch only in untouched mint condition.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Did I or did I not clearly state that my opinions were excluding any tropical features? Pretty sure I said that more than once.

I also wonder if you’re the same “Baron from Singapore” over on VRF who’s posts get deleted more than they stay up, due to causing problems and calling out fakes that aren’t actually fakes? I wonder if you’re that same guy?

If you are, I think it’s time to change hobbies.. stamps maybe?

Man I just noticed the bottom half of this post. And I feel slighted, and frankly maligned.


Yeah I’m the same Baron from VRF. However, I don’t recall my posts being taken down for wrongly calling out fakes. In fact I don’t have that good an eye or the gall to call out fakes. I merely call out non members who do not post proof of ownership or contravene with other rules about posting. Needless to say 1/10 of the people I call out are proven to be scammers and are subsequently banned from the site. I think that’s a pretty good statistic. Not sure if you know how a forum operates Sherlock. But in the real world, where most of us live, when the main post is deleted, my reply post calling out the main post is gone as well.



Stamps? I’m sorry, but I don’t find that interesting at all. I much prefer to collect paintings and cars in addition to watches. FYI, if I was a guy that had a sad looking big crown submariner as my display picture that has replacement parts, I wouldn’t dare call myself the Submariner King. LOL. Much less, be recommending people for a change of hobby.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I said they are catching up, different than almost on par. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

If you head back to school and clarify with your English tutor, I believe you’d find that “almost catching up” and “almost on par” actually have the same connotation. For more info on “connotation” and what it means, please refer to Merriam Webster. The dictionary, not the person.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by roh123

Well.. As I said; I don’t prefer any matte dial submariner and I do not own one. The date on the 1680 is just horrible to my liking so therefore I like a nodate 5512/5513 more. I prefer gilt when it comes to sport watches if that matters to this discussion. Much more charm in my opinion. My Daytona is matte and to be honest I find that dead and boring as well compared to my gilt watches.

Just out of curiosity and to end this. How much would you say a top, top meters first respective feet first 1680 should cost. Watch only in untouched mint condition.

Can’t agree with you more. I rarely wear my matte regular dial 6263. Frankly, I would trade my Paul Newman 6265 Panda Daytona for a perfect 6538 or 5510. However, it has to be perfect and preferably full set, definitely not a service parts riddled watch, like a certain guy we’ve come to know and love.


IMHO Gilt dials are far more interesting, you discover something new about it every time sunlight reflects off it’s surface. Simply sublime.


I would say a top MF full set commands 35-40K. And a top FF full set commands 20-25K.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

If you head back to school and clarify with your English tutor, I believe you’d find that “almost catching up” and “almost on par” actually have the same connotation. For more info on “connotation” and what it means, please refer to Merriam Webster. The dictionary, not the person.

Actually, Merriam-Webster (with a hyphen) is a publishing company, not a dictionary....though, yes, they do publish dictionaries.

[SgWatchBaron]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Actually, Merriam-Webster (with a hyphen) is a publishing company, not a dictionary....though, yes, they do publish dictionaries.

They do have an online dictionary...

[Styles Bitchley]

I find the points about the quickly rising prices of the ft firsts interesting. I've noticed it as well. I have no idea if they're "catching up" with m first (I don't even follow them as they're out of my league), but I certainly have noticed a jump in the price of white 1680s in the past few years! Perhaps this is just a case of generally stronger demand for the 1680 and a jump in all prices. There is certainly a hierarchy, however, and the m firsts are at the top.

[Kingface66]

...

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

Man I just noticed the bottom half of this post. And I feel slighted, and frankly maligned.


Yeah I’m the same Baron from VRF. However, I don’t recall my posts being taken down for wrongly calling out fakes. In fact I don’t have that good an eye or the gall to call out fakes. I merely call out non members who do not post proof of ownership or contravene with other rules about posting. Needless to say 1/10 of the people I call out are proven to be scammers and are subsequently banned from the site. I think that’s a pretty good statistic. Not sure if you know how a forum operates Sherlock. But in the real world, where most of us live, when the main post is deleted, my reply post calling out the main post is gone as well.



Stamps? I’m sorry, but I don’t find that interesting at all. I much prefer to collect paintings and cars in addition to watches. FYI, if I was a guy that had a sad looking big crown submariner as my display picture that has replacement parts, I wouldn’t dare call myself the Submariner King. LOL. Much less, be recommending people for a change of hobby.

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

If you head back to school and clarify with your English tutor, I believe you’d find that “almost catching up” and “almost on par” actually have the same connotation. For more info on “connotation” and what it means, please refer to Merriam Webster. The dictionary, not the person.

Originally Posted by SgWatchBaron

They do have an online dictionary...

First,
You have personally attacked a sale thread of mine over on VRF calling out a part of mine as being fake. I then had to reach out to mods and Eric personally to have him confirm my part was indeed authentic, then he had to delete your comment from my thread. After speaking with other collectors, I quickly realized this is a common practice, for you to police all threads and on frequent occasion, calling out fake towards authentic parts from respected forum members. I am speaking on this because you have personally done it to me. So in my eyes, this takes away any and all credibility from anything that comes out of your mouth.

Second, If you feel ripping apart my personal 6538 for having service parts or make me out to be illiterate will help further prove your point about red subs; it won't. It only shows your true character.

I happen to love my 6538 and enjoy it every day, service parts and all.