Red Sub that needs work. Is it worth it?

[KY..]

Originally Posted by TuRo

I note it states meters first on eBay blurb !? Also 1976 !? Reds were done by '75.

Full disclosure:
I received photos of the lugs from the seller and asked if I could share them here.
He said it’s fine to go ahead and share the range.
So FWIW, the case serial is between 4.381 Mil and 4.382 Mil.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by KY..

Full disclosure:
I received photos of the lugs from the seller and asked if I could share them here.
He said it’s fine to go ahead and share the range.
So FWIW, the case serial is between 4.381 Mil and 4.382 Mil.

Well, well into white range (and long past reds finishing), but quite a few thousand before service dials.

[Dom9]

The hands do look a lot newer, so assume service, but the case serial range isn't right either?

Does the red text look very 'subdued' or slightly washed out? I know the 'strength' of the red varied based on production year, but this is perhaps the most pale I have seen it. Maybe just a lot of fading, considering some of the minute markers appear also to have had a hard time?

[1675-David]

Buy it, sell the red dial buy a white dial put the difference in your pocket...

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Well, well into white range (and long past reds finishing), but quite a few thousand before service dials.

Ps typo. I meant service cases not dials of course.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by 1675-David

Buy it, sell the red dial buy a white dial put the difference in your pocket...

Indeed, what could possibly go wrong....

[tommm]

So me again

This watch was apparently sold Friday. They reached out to me this morning to buy it again after the buyer from the weekend didn’t complete.

As the guy above said, it’s a 4 million serial so from what I can read a mark VIII service dial

All the red sub info I read says that these are not valuable dials and as such it would appear this watch is probably priced about right

[alwayshere]

Hang on.

lets clarify a few things:

1) thanks to the member disclosing the serial of the case. So looks like the case should be for a white 1680 not red.

2) the current red dial appears to be a Mark VI - not a service dial unless i'm missing something.

If the above is right, I stand corrected earlier that the watch is a good deal. It now feels about right though the Mark VI dial is worth some coin in itself but definitely not a good deal as a whole.

[CTech]

The dial definitely isn't a Mark VIII service dial as they have Luminova lume material and so the 6 o'clock inscription is SWISS.

I'm starting to see some very minor differences in the placing of some letters in the bottom two lines of script when compared to a Mark VI dial, but can't be sure what is actually on the dial and what is caused by refraction through the crystal/distortion because of scratches/etc.

Until it could be proven one way or another, I would treat this dial as suspect, with a possibility that it is not genuine or it has been refinished as a red dial in some way.

Removing the dial and looking at the markings on the reverse face might help but you really need to have some high definition photographs of all the dial features and compare them to a known genuine example.

One of the forum members posted some very impressive examples of work he had done by overlaying images of some dial script onto an image of a genuine example and seeing if all the letter shapes, spacing, serifs and other features matched.

I can't remember who did this but it seemed to be a very powerful, if time consuming, technique for dial verification as it showed a lot of inconsistencies that otherwise were not noticeable.

[cruvon]

Here's my MK6, 3.81X serial.

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by tommm

So me again

This watch was apparently sold Friday. They reached out to me this morning to buy it again after the buyer from the weekend didn’t complete.

As the guy above said, it’s a 4 million serial so from what I can read a mark VIII service dial

All the red sub info I read says that these are not valuable dials and as such it would appear this watch is probably priced about right

From discussions above, think the dial seems to be an original Mk6 red dial, not a service dial. But the MK6 dial is in what seems to be in like a later white sub case, if case is a higher 4 mill serial, so dial and case wouldn't match if that's the case. You need to find out what the latest serial for a MK6 red sub would be if there could be some overlap between the last red and white. The sub in question is stated as having a case between 4.381 Mil and 4.382 Mil. Maybe someone here can help with what the latest serial for a MK6 would be based on historical examples. They are commonly seen in higher 3.xx serial.

[Dan S]

So it seems that the dealer priced the watch to account for some issues (e.g. replaced dial), but did not explicitly disclose those issues.

Originally Posted by 1675-David

Buy it, sell the red dial buy a white dial put the difference in your pocket...

The value as parts is probably still there, but most casual buyers aren't looking for that kind of hassle if they can avoid it.

[tommm]

So im going to pass on this one as it’s looking like a mismatching case and dial.

This is all part of the hunt and the knowledge in this forum is stunning!

The seller quoted it as a “transitional” model, but as it was probably first thought, it’s probably too good to be true.

Mark VI dial in a white sub case basically. I wonder if the folks at Rolex would actually check the details. Probably not I guess unless you own it and take it to them.

[cruvon]

Originally Posted by tommm

So im going to pass on this one as it’s looking like a mismatching case and dial.

This is all part of the hunt and the knowledge in this forum is stunning!

The seller quoted it as a “transitional” model, but as it was probably first thought, it’s probably too good to be true.

Mark VI dial in a white sub case basically. I wonder if the folks at Rolex would actually check the details. Probably not I guess unless you own it and take it to them.

Happy hunting, with vintage it's usually a case of if it's too good to be true, it usually is:). In the age of the internet every dealer or seller usually knows what they are selling and every buyer should be cautious and do their due diligence thoroughly to enjoy the hobby. Having said that there are sellers who will state upfront what they are selling so one can make an informed decision and some that don't.

Here's a ref to serial numbers

Quote:

"Mark I (Meters First) 2.07M to 2.2M

Mark II/III (Meters First) 2.2M to 2.45M

Mark IV (Open “6” Feet First) 2.45M to 3.?M

Mark V (Open “6” Feet First) 2.?M to 3.?M

Mark VI (Closed “6” Feet First) 3.?M to 4.0M

Mark VII (White Submariner) 4.0m to 7M+

Mark VIII (Luminova) Red Sub Service Dial

The above serial number ranges are guidelines and should not be taken literally, and like a lot of Rolex information out there, may be subject to some revision. They help me establish some boundaries that to follow in my collecting endeavors. For example, I will not buy a Red sub with a case number above 4M or a Meters First with a case number higher than 2.5M. "

Extract from:
https://www.drsd.com/watch-info/red-sub/redsub.html

[tommm]

So am I right in thinking that someone in the past sourced a red submariner dial and put it into the case?

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by tommm

So am I right in thinking that someone in the past sourced a red submariner dial and put it into the case?

Affirmative.

[zapokee]

Great that the OP has chosen to look elsewhere.

There are lots of good expert opnions here. That's why we gather.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by tommm

So am I right in thinking that someone in the past sourced a red submariner dial and put it into the case?

Most likely. The 4.0M "boundary" for a red sub dial should not be taken literally, but this serial is almost 400,000 higher, which would be a major outlier.

That said, it is unfortunate that Rolex doesn't provide archival information, because we are forced to rely on rough guidelines published on websites, and this sometimes causes us to be overly rigid in our thinking.

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Most likely. The 4.0M "boundary" for a red sub dial should not be taken literally, but this serial is almost 400,000 higher, which would be a major outlier.

That said, it is unfortunate that Rolex doesn't provide archival information, because we are forced to rely on rough guidelines published on websites, and this sometimes causes us to be overly rigid in our thinking.

X2, a nice close-up of the engravings would be nice!

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by tommm

So am I right in thinking that someone in the past sourced a red submariner dial and put it into the case?

Bit of real world data here.

25 pages of serial numbers of Reds accumulated over many years of peeps posting them up c 2012-21.

Takes ages to go through them all, but the latest Prod. Red which are MK6 was c 3,998***.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...225667&page=24

Ps earliest White have seen in captivity, is 3,838,***, so the overlap is entirely, (or substantially), within 3 million not 4 million range imho. Good white database here https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=754223

[Dom9]

Interesting insight, as always, thanks. There are some guides that say the Red goes into '76, which would suggest serials over 4M are possible, if the White had already been released (some say '75-on):

https://italianwatchspotter.com/role...0-red/?lang=en

https://italianwatchspotter.com/ever...-1680/?lang=en

Another White dial quote (Bob's): "The three white dials fitted to the ref. 1680 were all feet first versions, all with tritium lume. These were supplied on the models made between approximately 1975 and the end of the watch’s run in 1979/1980. (4.0M and 7M case numbers)."

The serial number quotes always seem consistent (but maybe they all use the same source of info) i.e. Red<4.0M and White>4.0M but it's not so clear why that should be, if there was an overlapping period of production. If there was.

Is it possible Rolex would have even taken a request to have a red dial added to a white dial watch, if it was after the transition and someone 'ordered' the year of the white dial release?

[ianmcg]

Originally Posted by TuRo

Bit of real world data here.

25 pages of serial numbers of Reds accumulated over many years of peeps posting them up c 2012-21.

Takes ages to go through them all, but the latest Prod. Red which are MK6 was c 3,998***.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...225667&page=24

Ps earliest White have seen in captivity, is 3,838,***, so the overlap is entirely, (or substantially), within 3 million not 4 million range imho. Good white database here https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=754223

FWIW one of the Mk 6 red subs in that thread is mine but I only posted the first the first three digits. As it happens the fourth digit is a 9 so its actually 3,999,xxx but the xxx is not a big number!

[charlitos]

My mk6. Your example is a original mk6 dial in changed case.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Dom9

Interesting insight, as always, thanks. There are some guides that say the Red goes into '76, which would suggest serials over 4M are possible, if the White had already been released (some say '75-on):

https://italianwatchspotter.com/role...0-red/?lang=en

https://italianwatchspotter.com/ever...-1680/?lang=en

Another White dial quote (Bob's): "The three white dials fitted to the ref. 1680 were all feet first versions, all with tritium lume. These were supplied on the models made between approximately 1975 and the end of the watch’s run in 1979/1980. (4.0M and 7M case numbers)."

The serial number quotes always seem consistent (but maybe they all use the same source of info) i.e. Red<4.0M and White>4.0M but it's not so clear why that should be, if there was an overlapping period of production. If there was.

Is it possible Rolex would have even taken a request to have a red dial added to a white dial watch, if it was after the transition and someone 'ordered' the year of the white dial release?

Thanks. Post 4 million is quite a smorgasbord (thanks to Xeramic and Fantastic Time for this unbelievably complex set of serial info they elicited over on VRF recently) :

Xeramic advised:
4.0 common serials
4.1 common serials
4.2 common serials
4.3 last common serial engraving seen: 4,39x,xxx (in the description: 4,394,xxx); first service serial seen: 4,39x,xxx
4.4 service serials
4.5 never seen (mention only - probably typo or misread serial or fake case)
4.6 never seen (mention only - probably typo or misread serial or fake case)
4.7 service serial range
4.8 never seen (mention only - probably typo or misread serial or fake case)
4.9 never seen (mention only - probably typo or misread serial or fake case)
5.0 common serial range

There's a statement floating around: "During 1976 Rolex retained cases to be used as future "Service Cases" bearing serial numbers from late 4'380m to 4'800m"; I think this bases on a pic of a Sub from HQM with the common serial 4,38x,xxx (so, after that one service serials might start) and the fact that all 4.7 are service numbers - thus, the mentioned range is just a superficial try to fence in the service serial range but doesn't consider the unused ranges; to me, as of today (might change when Rolex opens untouched ranges, obviously):

SERVICE SERIALS
- from not lower than 4,394,xxx to 4,399,999
- 4,400,000 to 4,499,999
- 4,700,000 to 4,799,999

NOT USED (yet)
- 4,500,000 to 4,699,999
- 4,800,000 to 4,999,999

Fantastic Time added :
The 4m serial is very interesting as it started in 1975 but continued in...
1976 from 4.115xxx to 4.259xxx
1977 with 4259xxx to 4275xxx
1978 4.275xxx -4.302xxx
1979 4.302xxx - 4328xxx
1980 4.328xxx to 4353xxx
1981 with 4353xxx to 4372xxx

Service cases are outside of these ranges.

The 5m serial range started in 1976 and was seen in 1977/8 and 9.

[KY..]

As I stated, I was asked by the seller not to post the extra pics publicly and I will oblige.
But a forum member communicated to me there may be additional discrepancies not publicly seen yet.
So in lieu of me publicly posting them you can pm if you desire or obviously ask the seller directly.

[1675-David]

The engravings...





and caseback



any opinions

[Dom9]

So, between that and Paul's message, that could be a retained service case? So it's possibly legit but not 'original'?

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by Dom9

So, between that and Paul's message, that could be a retained service case? So it's possibly legit but not 'original'?

thought service cases started with 44xxxxx?

[1675-David]

My concern with these engravings, apart from the font used in the numbers themselves, is what appears to be the Orig.Rolex Design engraved above the 1680 reference number in the second image.

[greekbum]

I have never seen Orig rolex design in this serial range before.