Apple's stand against the Feds

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by greggsiam

I don't even know where to start on this one....

Yes, I would support Apple.

No terror plot is going to be limited to a single phone and reliant on cracking it. To physically have the phone means you know the person and have reasonable intent of something. There is going to be a lot more evidence to go on or the police wouldn't have the person's phone to begin with.

Not to be rude, but your scenario is just nonsense. So, yes, I would because as a man smarter than me once said, "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.."

This is a phone of a terrorist who killed a lot of people. There's a good chance he knows other terrorists who want to kill a lot of people. There doesn't have to be "a lot more evidence to go on" because they already have the phone and the owner has already murdered all those innocents.

So, no, not nonsense, absolute fact and reasonable assumptions.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Apple is a company that's always wanted to go it's own way and not conform to the norm or be told what to do. They play the friendly cuddly consumer buddy card in the media but in reality they're one of the most ruthless and underhand tech companies out there. This was how Steve Jobs was and operated and the company still carries on the same.



They're nearly completely dependant on the iPhone now and so will of course do whatever it takes to protect it, apparently including potentially risking thousands of lives. I know they have shareholders to be accountable to but this is morally repugnant.

So how do you respond to the fact that Sundar Pichai , Googles CEO, agrees with Apple?

This is not Apple vs the FBI. This is Apple having the foresight to see what the implications are for them, for every software company, and every person living in the free world.

By not understanding this, you are short sited and naive. If Apple gives in and creates what the FBI asks, this precedent will open the floodgate to gain access to other phones and software under the guise of national security-That's a broad scope that has no limits


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[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by greggsiam

Please show me where they stated this and can prove it. Just because some paranoid people put out rumors, it doesn't mean it is true.

I don't think you quite understand how encryption works. They either have an algorithm that allows them immediate access or they try to brute force it.

Good luck brute forcing 256bit AES encryption with SHA-1 hashing (what the iphone 6 uses). With 50 super computers, it will take approximately 3.31 x 10 to the power of 56 years. To put that in perspective, if everyone had 10 computers (7 billion people), and each could test 1 billion key combinations a second, and you could crack with 50% of the possible keys, it would still take 77,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years.

So basically, unless the AES encryption was created with a built in flaw, or they discovered one, it's not happening. The NSA are not gods. If there was a flaw, the people in security and mathematicians would have reported it as they did with weaker encryption standards.

Thank you for qualifying this. I'm not in IT but was thinking that many of the people posting about the NSA already doing this have watched too many movies.


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[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

So how do you respond to the fact that Sundar Pichai , Googles CEO, agrees with Apple?

This is not Apple vs the FBI. This is Apple having the foresight to see what the implications are for them, for every software company, and every person living in the free world.

By not understanding this, you are short sited and naive. If Apple gives in and creates what the FBI asks, this precedent will open the floodgate to gain access to other phones and software under the guise of national security-That's a broad scope that has no limits


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Response = Google run Android. They have their own interests at stake too along exactly the same lines as Apple. Google is another company run the same as Apple, they even say they "Do no Evil" when clearly these days they're just another corporate juggernaut only interested in their own bottom line.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by bayerische

Isn't this un-constitutional?



A people should not fear their government, a government should fear its people.

This issue may not be unconstitutional now but when, not if, it gets abused, it will be written off as a national security issue under the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act makes any reasonable argument moot.




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[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Response = Google run Android. They have their own interests at stake too along exactly the same lines as Apple. Google is another company run the same as Apple, they even say they "Do no Evil" when clearly these days they're just another corporate juggernaut only interested in their own bottom line.

Where, in Apples argument, do you see this as being an issue of profit?

Since you don't see that their interests are your interests, you aren't thinking logically or reasonably.

I hope you don't use an iPhone or an android phone because that would make you a hypocrite. Have fun with that flip phone


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[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Since you don't see that their interests are your interests, you aren't thinking logically or reasonably.

I hope you don't use an iPhone or an android phone because that would make you a hypocrite. Have fun with that flip phone


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Correct, I don't use either and I get on just fine. Ditto I don't use Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter or any social media (unless you count this forum maybe) and have never missed out on anything or been "left behind" in any way.

My interests are the world being a safer place to live, I have no worry about my privacy as I have nothing to hide.

[Lion]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Correct, I don't use either and I get on just fine. Ditto I don't use Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter or any social media (unless you count this forum maybe) and have never missed out on anything or been "left behind" in any way.

My interests are the world being a safer place to live, I have no worry about my privacy as I have nothing to hide.

Maybe so but you definitely give(at least to me)the impression through your comments and responses of being a very paranoid person…..

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by Lion

Maybe so but you definitely give(at least to me)the impression through your comments and responses of being a very paranoid person…..

Interesting, other posters seem to be saying the opposite, that I'm not paranoid enough and too naïve and trusting of the government(s).

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Correct, I don't use either and I get on just fine. Ditto I don't use Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter or any social media (unless you count this forum maybe) and have never missed out on anything or been "left behind" in any way.



My interests are the world being a safer place to live, I have no worry about my privacy as I have nothing to hide.

Social media and using a smart phone aren't the same thing nor do they serve the same purpose. Since you don't use either, you are hardly in a position to speak for those that make them and use them.

Having privacy does not mean you have something to hide---It's protecting you, your personal data and your property. You have implied that anyone supporting privacy supports terrorists and that's wrong.

If you really believe your statement of have nothing to hide, respond with your social security number and date of birth, any pics of your wife and kids, oh and your address with the doors unlocked. That's what you are are supporting literally and figuratively


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[goin camping]

Originally Posted by Thunderball57

Apple techs should unlock the phone for the FBI with an ironclad agreement not to be forced to disclose how they they did. Simple (?)

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Say they do and an arrest is made.

Guess what? Attorneys will be given the information as required by law for the prosecution or defense of the case. Witnesses will be called regarding chain of custody and be asked questions on how they did what to gain the information. Now the genie is out of the bottle and all iPhones are hackable.

The "ironclad" agreement will be breached by law before the first court date. And that folks is American law.

[TheVTCGuy]

I just read Apple will fight the court order to unlock the phone... One that was part of a terrorist attack that killed innocent victims; and I just lost all respect for that company. I am embarrassed to be writing this on an IPhone. Requiring a court order is a respectable tactic to protect their customers privacy, but you did that, now how about your responsibility to National Security? What if, (GOD forbid) there is information in that phone that would prevent a future attack and save innocent lives? And authorities are not able to retrieve it because they are fighting this court action? IMHO, that will be blood on their hands.

Unlock the thing, then change the security protocol so this particular procedure is useless for any future use, and charge the Feds a mountain of money for your engineering services. Problem solved. As for what innocents might be affected by being in the phone (I.e just friends or acquaintances that are not terrorists and had nothing to do with the attack) the worst that could happen is you will be interviewed by the FBI; something I have personally experienced. An hour or two of time is worth the price to save innocents lives

[Thunderball57]

Originally Posted by goin camping

Say they do and an arrest is made.

Guess what? Attorneys will be given the information as required by law for the prosecution or defense of the case. Witnesses will be called regarding chain of custody and be asked questions on how they did what to gain the information. Now the genie is out of the bottle and all iPhones are hackable.

The "ironclad" agreement will be breached by law before the first court date. And that folks is American law.

Got the picture.

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[Fredrik]

The phone in question is an older iPhone 5c, it _might_ be configured to be erased after 10 failed attempts to unlock it, the FBI do not know this, this is a software setting for this model. It does have a setting in software for delaying unlocking attempts.

Since it is an older model it might be possible to unlock it by writing a custom OS for it with no delay between attempts, no erasing after 10 tries and some means of entering the passphrase electronically. By removing those obstacles the FBI can start brute forcing it's way into the phone.

The custom OS has to be signed digitally with Apples root certificate for it to work. This is the problem... It will work on any earlier iPhone. There is no way to keep the lid on such software, it will leak.

The delay between attempts can not be bypassed in later iPhones with an iOS update as far as I know.

The reason it is so hard to unlock an iPhone is because it has an encryption key in hardware, you can only unlock the encrypted contents on the device itself.

[Ferdelious]

This has been one of the best threads to read in a long time. I can see both sides to this argument however I will not express my opinions because of my lack of knowledge on the subject. Better to sit on the sidelines and watch you guys go at it.

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Social media and using a smart phone aren't the same thing nor do they serve the same purpose. Since you don't use either, you are hardly in a position to speak for those that make them and use them.

Having privacy does not mean you have something to hide---It's protecting you, your personal data and your property. You have implied that anyone supporting privacy supports terrorists and that's wrong.

If you really believe your statement of have nothing to hide, respond with your social security number and date of birth, any pics of your wife and kids, oh and your address with the doors unlocked. That's what you are are supporting literally and figuratively


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I'm a citizen of a country and city that's currently on the highest level of terrorist alert and that multiple terrorist plots has been thwarted in by the security services in the last few years, all because of intelligence lead investigations. That puts me in a position to be concerned about topics like this regardless of what phone I use even if in this case it is thousands of miles away. I want terrorists to be caught and punished before they kill people, I support nearly all efforts to achieve this.

I mentioned social media because you said "have fun with your flip phone" which suggested I might be a bit technologically backwards or not up to date. I was qualifying that just because I don't use the latest gadgets or online trends doesn't mean I'm forced to live in the dark ages.

All the things you mention could already be found out by someone without too much trouble if they really wanted to. That doesn't mean I'm going to write them on here just like you wouldn't leave your car unlocked with the seat covered in watches in the middle of the roughest part of your city. Perhaps I should say it more succinctly - I have nothing to hide from government or security agencies and I trust them to have access to private information as they need it to protect the population.

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Without wanting to get political that is clearly the issue for a lot of folks here. They just don't trust their government. Personally I would not live somewhere where I did not trust the government. In fact there are a few countries where I would like to live, have a great lifestyle, be able to make tons of money, retire by 45 etc but I simply cannot because I do not trust the governments there on a variety of levels.

FWIW I would happily live in the USA if it was beneficial to me and have no issue with the Govt/Feds there accessing my data either.

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

I'm a citizen of a country and city that's currently on the highest level of terrorist alert and that multiple terrorist plots has been thwarted in by the security services in the last few years, all because of intelligence lead investigations. That puts me in a position to be concerned about topics like this regardless of what phone I use even if in this case it is thousands of miles away. I want terrorists to be caught and punished before they kill people, I support nearly all efforts to achieve this.

All the things you mention could already be found out by someone without too much trouble if they really wanted to. That doesn't mean I'm going to write them on here just like you wouldn't leave your car unlocked with the seat covered in watches in the middle of the roughest part of your city. Perhaps I should say it more succinctly - I have nothing to hide from government or security agencies and I trust them to have access to private information as they need it to protect the population.

Seems like a contradiction? Which is it?

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

[/B]


Seems like a contradiction? Which is it?

Not at all.

I trust the government of the country I live in, hence I continue to live here happily.

Unfortunately, I do not trust the governments of countries I would otherwise quite like to live in hence I cannot and don't live there.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Why doesn't the FBI just ask Apple to give them the info they want from that particular phone rather than give them a way of defeating all iPhones?

This is the key question to me! Crack the bad guys phone and let the rest of us alone.

Most tyranny in history has started by asking one group to give up certain basic rights rights to save them from another group!

This has never worked out well! 1984 is past, let us not re-visit it.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by Frosty

This is the key question to me! Crack the bad guys phone and let the rest of us alone.

Most tyranny in history has started by asking one group to give up certain basic rights rights to save them from another group!

This has never worked out well! 1984 is past, let us not re-visit it.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

Apple has unlocked and extracted data for investigators in the past but they were an older ios. 70 times to be exact. But according to a response from Apple to the court, the ability to do the same in ios9 is not possible.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

I'm a citizen of a country and city that's currently on the highest level of terrorist alert and that multiple terrorist plots has been thwarted in by the security services in the last few years, all because of intelligence lead investigations. That puts me in a position to be concerned about topics like this regardless of what phone I use even if in this case it is thousands of miles away. I want terrorists to be caught and punished before they kill people, I support nearly all efforts to achieve this.

I mentioned social media because you said "have fun with your flip phone" which suggested I might be a bit technologically backwards or not up to date. I was qualifying that just because I don't use the latest gadgets or online trends doesn't mean I'm forced to live in the dark ages.

All the things you mention could already be found out by someone without too much trouble if they really wanted to. That doesn't mean I'm going to write them on here just like you wouldn't leave your car unlocked with the seat covered in watches in the middle of the roughest part of your city. Perhaps I should say it more succinctly - I have nothing to hide from government or security agencies and I trust them to have access to private information as they need it to protect the population.

Well I live in a city that is most likely considered to be the holy grail for almost every terrorist.

I like my freedom and while I have nothing to hide, I don't want anyone looking into my private life or personal data. I don't spend my days worrying about dying in a terrorist attack because I trust that the DHS, FBI, NYPD and every other counter-terrorist agency are doing their jobs without the need to look in everyone's apartment and everyone's phone.

I'm happy you trust your Government the way you do because if they want to look at your personal data, they certainly don't trust you. I trust mine as long as they're not snopping through my shit.

[goin camping]

As a bit of a detour on the topic.

What I find very interesting is in general the divide of opinion is almost all along the line of what country the members are in.

Is this a divide caused by experience with eachs own government. The difference between subjects and citizens. National attitudes. Or?

I remember the great difference in our national attitudes was brought home while watching Top Gear UK. Some American actor was chatting with Jeremy Clarkson about speed cameras. When Jeremy finished complaining about them the American actor asked. "Why don't you just shoot them out. That's what we do?" While we actually don't do that type of stuff as a general rule. I think many Americans view that type of action as an option.

I know why many Americans distrust our government. My government has pulled lots of shenanigans over the years. Plus it's almost an American birthright to complain/fight/rail against our government.

I truly do not know enough about the government in the UK to know if they are trustworthy or not or the national attitude of the people towards their government.

[sdelliott58]

I think most here would agree, that obtaining the data may very well be useful. But as someone who is in a related industry and has worked with Apple, Samsung, as well as government used technolgy etc, a skeleton key is not a sound idea, and frankly the prospect is flat out scary. If for some reason Apple did cave, the precedent it would set may very well set in motion the possibility for some rather significant baseline in terms of loss of privacy and future searches of electronic devices.

The issue (IMHO) at hand is what happens after the fact? This will not be something that is used one time, and then locked away or destroyed. Once this is done, Pandora is out of the box. And sadly, (while I largely trust the government) there are individuals within various organizations that cannot be trusted, and frankly are more than capable of utilizing such a tool for personal gain, and in the process acquiring information that may be subject to VERY broad interpretation. The end result of which could have devastating ramifications on freedom of speech, right to privacy, the list goes on.


Until such time as I can be convinced this would be a one off (Whch i highly unlikely), I simply cannot drink the koolaid. While I despise the cowardly acts committed in San Bernadino, as I do all acts of terrorism, unleashing this technology/tool presents the likelihood of abuse so great, the negative far outweighs the positive.

[seand442]

Interesting news. Apparently, Apple has done it before.

http://a.msn.com/r/2/BBpFBbK

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by seand442

Interesting news. Apparently, Apple has done it before.

http://a.msn.com/r/2/BBpFBbK

...but can't do it anymore (which is their point of contention) Did you read the article or just go by the headline?

I'll help you out and bold some of the rather important parts

Apple has provided default encryption on its iPhones since 2014, allowing any device's contents to be accessed only by the user who knows the phone's passcode...
Before that, the company used a less-secure iOS, and could use an extraction tool that would physically plug into the phone and allow it to respond to search warrant requests from the government.

"For all devices running iOS 8 and later versions, Apple will not perform iOS data extractions in response to government search warrants because the files to be extracted are protected by an encryption key that is tied to the user’s passcode, which Apple does not possess," Apple said on its privacy website.

[seand442]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

...but can't do it anymore (which is their point of contention) Did you read the article or just go by the headline?

I'll help you out and bold some of the rather important parts

Ease it on back.

Apple is playing it like they have never done this before and acting like they are a patriot for privacy. Well, that's not quite true. If they CAN'T do it, that's one thing. If they WON'T do it, it's a different game.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by seand442

Ease it on back.

Apple is playing it like they have never done this before and acting like they are a patriot for privacy. Well, that's not quite true. If they CAN'T do it, that's one thing. If they WON'T do it, it's a different game.

Thats how you are interpreting it to mean.

This only shows that they are willing to do what they are able to do. I don't recall seeing anywhere in Tim Cook's message that they have never done this out the sanctity of privacy. In fact, it says "When the FBI has requested data that’s in our possession, we have provided it. Apple complies with valid subpoenas and search warrants, as we have in the San Bernardino case. We have also made Apple engineers available to advise the FBI, and we’ve offered our best ideas on a number of investigative options at their disposal."

Clearly, they are not fighting this to spite the federal government or to sideline this investigation. They are saying that if they do what the FBI wants them to do, it goes beyond the scope of this investigation and compromises the privacy of software and the people that uses them everywhere

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Not at all.

I trust the government of the country I live in, hence I continue to live here happily.

Unfortunately, I do not trust the governments of countries I would otherwise quite like to live in hence I cannot and don't live there.

Your government has been kicking down doors and persecuting innocent people at least since the American revolution, which is one of the reasons privacy and freedom from government harassment is a right in the US constitution.

Reading the articles about how the London Metropolitan Police persecuted and harassed the war hero Lord Bramall over unfounded charges tells me your government is still kicking down the doors of the innocent.

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Thank you for qualifying this. I'm not in IT but was thinking that many of the people posting about the NSA already doing this have watched too many movies.


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I couldn't find the video with the statements I referenced. It was a TV news story and I don't recall who the source is. Your inference that I'm watching too many movies infers that I'm some sort of crackpot or fantasist and is frankly insulting, BTW.

The NSA doesn't need to do all that is suggested in greggsiam's post. That assumes only a brute force attack is possible, and does not consider other options that the NSA will have, that others do not (such as an NSL), that provide them capability that is not available to everyone.

Keep in mind that the NSA knows all the encryption techniques that anyone in public knows, plus all the techniques they developed in secret themselves. And, they don't necessarily need to attack the encryption head on, there are other methods available, especially if provided IOS information under an NSL.

Snowden revealed that the NSA was reading VPN traffic real time. Nobody knew that. Why? Because the NSA didn't want anyone to know they were reading the mail at the same time you were. If theNSA obtained proprietary information from Apple under an NSL, and developed a way to hack a device in hand (the same way Apple programmers would), we won't know that with certainty until the next Snowden comes along. There's near zero probability they would risk exposing that capability by letting the FBI or the courts near it.

Some interesting reading on NSA encryption capabilities below:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv..._crypto_1.html
http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...ur-phone-calls
http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/06/tech...turn-on-phone/
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/artic...phone-any-time
https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/h...o-much-crypto/
http://gizmodo.com/the-nsa-can-crack...ion-1258954266
http://gizmodo.com/the-governments-c...next-895286242

[Rolex57]

Look, my belief is the FBI/CIA already have a backdoor to Apple's firewall.

Now, the problem lies in that a lot of customer's buy these phone's because they think they have some privacy and as a result, sales are through the roof for these things. Apple as a company is so profitable, that when the US economy is studied and GDP is calculated, AAPL (Apple) factors in a very large part to the health of the US economy.

Now, consider if it gets out that the FBI/CIA already HAVE access via a backdoor. The repercussion is that you will see AAPL stock drop in value by 30% within minutes.

That would be brutal.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I couldn't find the video with the statements I referenced. It was a TV news story and I don't recall who the source is. Your inference that I'm watching too many movies infers that I'm some sort of crackpot or fantasist and is frankly insulting, BTW.

The NSA doesn't need to do all that is suggested in greggsiam's post. That assumes only a brute force attack is possible, and does not consider other options that the NSA will have, that others do not (such as an NSL), that provide them capability that is not available to everyone.

Keep in mind that the NSA knows all the encryption techniques that anyone in public knows, plus all the techniques they developed in secret themselves. And, they don't necessarily need to attack the encryption head on, there are other methods available, especially if provided IOS information under an NSL.

Snowden revealed that the NSA was reading VPN traffic real time. Nobody knew that. Why? Because the NSA didn't want anyone to know they were reading the mail at the same time you were. If theNSA obtained proprietary information from Apple under an NSL, and developed a way to hack a device in hand (the same way Apple programmers would), we won't know that with certainty until the next Snowden comes along. There's near zero probability they would risk exposing that capability by letting the FBI or the courts near it.

Some interesting reading on NSA encryption capabilities below:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv..._crypto_1.html
http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...ur-phone-calls
http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/06/tech...turn-on-phone/
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/artic...phone-any-time
https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/h...o-much-crypto/
http://gizmodo.com/the-nsa-can-crack...ion-1258954266
http://gizmodo.com/the-governments-c...next-895286242

I don't know what to tell you except that post 9/11, there is a huge amount of cooperation between all the US agencies. If the NSA was able to do this, why would the FBI bother with the court order at this point?

I'm not an expert by any means but if Apples encryption is based off the users passcode and you only get 10 attempts to get it right before the phone erases, it doesn't matter that the NSA can decrypt it if they don't have the passcode to begin with. Also, ios9 has the option to use a 6 digit passcode vs 4 so that even makes it more difficult.

BTW, the article that talks about NSA and iphone is from 2013. Apple introduced ios8 with its encryption in 2014.