Achtung, anyone who cares about punched papers

[conrail]

@Chad: I think he's (albeit not the original VRF poster on this issue, but certainly a vocal one) exposed something that a lot of collectors never considered: is that punched paper I'm getting with this "full set" original to the watch, or did my trusted seller take a genuine blank cert and punch it last week. Folks who have been around longer have pointed out its been going on a while, but with the uptick in full set prices, and newer collectors taking interest, I think it's an aspect that has been overlooked in favor of scrutinizing the watch mostly.

However, now it appears he is not entirely innocent/clean either. Takes a thief to catch a thief I guess...

[tattooedfagin]

Originally Posted by conrail

However, now it appears he is not entirely innocent/clean either. Takes a thief to catch a thief I guess...

x2 - his own eBay purchase history threw up some very interesting items including a purchase from someone in California, the guy who supplied my watch is there an ulterior motive perhaps to all these claims..?

[conrail]

Originally Posted by tattooedfagin

x2 - his own eBay purchase history threw up some very interesting items including a purchase from someone in California, the guy who supplied my watch is there an ulterior motive perhaps to all these claims..?

Right on. I recall reading on VRF before he was bumped off there as well, that he claimed the punches were for skintags on his dog, and the stamps were for his model train hobby? I don't know much about skintags on dogs, but I've been model railroading for 25 years (dork) and have never heard anything like what he described. It's all nonsense.

[roach7]

look at his feedback for vintage1665 (333)

Fast Shipping, Immediate email Response, Item Exactly as Described. Perfect A+ ericbee ( 315) Jul-19-11 05:05
Rare Vintage Rolex Inner Boxes & Blank Paper from 1970s (#200628082477) US $761.00

i would stay far away from both these guys

[conrail]

Originally Posted by roach7

look at his feedback for vintage1665 (333)

Fast Shipping, Immediate email Response, Item Exactly as Described. Perfect A+ ericbee ( 315) Jul-19-11 05:05
Rare Vintage Rolex Inner Boxes & Blank Paper from 1970s (#200628082477) US $761.00

i would stay far away from both these guys

Agreed, I'd stay away from ericbee. He probably then cobbled those boxes, stamped and/or punched the paper, and coupled it with a previously loose legit watch, and made a few thousand bucks.

And then he makes his grandiose item descriptions about what a good seller on ebay should and shouldn't look like, to mask what he is doing.

[amb123]

Does anyone know when punched papers were superceded by papers where the s/n is printed?

I was looking at a W serial daytona (so produced in 1995, according to "Oysterworld.de") but it had punched papers so I wasn't sure if authentic. If it makes a difference, according to same website, the 3 digits in front of s/n indicate that watch was sold in Europe.

1995 just seems a bit late to still be using punched papers. Any experience/knowledge by forum members appreciated. Thanks.

[Dan2000]

Very interesting thread here and over at VRF. I was lucky to follow before all of the edits. We may never know the true intentions behind the "reveal" (perhaps a business argument, a deal gone wrong, etc) but at least it has been exposed for what it is. That's my take-away. I am new to this world and just beginning to get the vintage bug and this has opened my eyes. I guess a watch with NO B&P is fine for me now. I actually watched all the auctions to see how they would fare (I was hoping for a deal!). Really, no significant drop in price when compared to previous auctions given the number of potential buyers on eBay vs the users of TRF or VRF.

What is troublesome is that the old advice given to newbies like me of "buy the seller, not the watch" is somewhat less meaningful after this past weekend's events...

[BH13GMT]

Ebay has a UK based 1680 Red Sub with punched papers but no dealer stamp. This looks like its a retro punching to me. I would expect all AD's would complete the paperwork at the time of sale and not let the punched papers go without the date of sale included. Am I correct or was it common to let the watch go with papers punched only.

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by amb123

Does anyone know when punched papers were superceded by papers where the s/n is printed?

I was looking at a W serial daytona (so produced in 1995, according to "Oysterworld.de") but it had punched papers so I wasn't sure if authentic. If it makes a difference, according to same website, the 3 digits in front of s/n indicate that watch was sold in Europe.

1995 just seems a bit late to still be using punched papers. Any experience/knowledge by forum members appreciated. Thanks.

on a w serial if it were a usa watch it would have typed papers...rest of world it would be punched.

dont forget Rolex usa is a seperate comapny from the main rest of world Rolex and did its own thing for a quite a long time.

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by BH13GMT

Ebay has a UK based 1680 Red Sub with punched papers but no dealer stamp. This looks like its a retro punching to me. I would expect all AD's would complete the paperwork at the time of sale and not let the punched papers go without the date of sale included. Am I correct or was it common to let the watch go with papers punched only.

unfortuantely quite common ...it even still happens today sometimes even though they are under pain of death to complete the cards from HQ ...ive walked out twice the year without completed cards because we have been so busy chatting


the whole point of the allegations made, and also what is believed by many seasoned collectors and dealers alike ..is that faked papers are to a standard that is indistinguishable from real ones, when they are based on real blank papers that are punched to match the watch. if this is the case it does not matter if they are 5 dots, 6 dots, typed, ink stamped, written, dealer stamped not dealer stamped ...there is no easy tell ....they are indistinguishable.

all you can rely on is the source of the watch ...ie.. a watch from original owner, vs ones that been through 10 dealers and 5 watchfairs ...... and things like FULL sets ...where for example there is a purchase receipt, service receipts, etc etc ..some you can just tell are the product of a retentive person ....past that there is no doubt in OUR world at least , b&P sets went down in value a bit this week.

[DiamondJack]

Originally Posted by jedly1

all you can rely on is the source of the watch ...ie.. a watch from original owner, vs ones that been through 10 dealers and 5 watchfairs ...... and things like FULL sets ...where for example there is a purchase receipt, service receipts, etc etc ..some you can just tell are the product of a retentive person ....past that there is no doubt in OUR world at least , b&P sets went down in value a bit this week.

Thx Jed...... But presumably by the same reasoning, sets with the purchase receipts and other papers such a HP agreement that a retentive person would have kept as well as the guarantee, means those sets have arguably gone up in value

I have always been a bit suspicious about a watch with just a guarantee as it is highly unlikely that would have been kept in isolation to all the other papers.

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by tattooedfagin

.....a sad week where one voice has tried to end 2/3 careers

What do you mean?

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by jedly1

unfortuantely quite common ...it even still happens today sometimes even though they are under pain of death to complete the cards from HQ ...ive walked out twice the year without completed cards because we have been so busy chatting

X2

Just remember, that people are human and they don't always do what they are supposed to do. Sometimes they just simply forget.

[fusionstorm]

Originally Posted by jedly1

on a w serial if it were a usa watch it would have typed papers...rest of world it would be punched.

dont forget Rolex usa is a seperate comapny from the main rest of world Rolex and did its own thing for a quite a long time.

Just to add to this. The F serial 14000M Air King that I recently sold was originally acquired in Hong Kong, and had punched papers.

[amb123]

Originally Posted by jedly1

on a w serial if it were a usa watch it would have typed papers...rest of world it would be punched.

dont forget Rolex usa is a seperate comapny from the main rest of world Rolex and did its own thing for a quite a long time.

Very helpful. Thanks for the reply.

[Submarino]

I've been following the thread here and on the VRF and it's just crazy to think that a certificate gets punched here and there by a few dishonest sellers in order to sell a full set and take advantage of buyers.

Being the inquisitive person that I am, I decided to do some Google homework and figure out how these 'rats' get to punch papers in the same way Rolex used to. After doing my homework I came across a website that sells professional machinery to perforate numbers or letters just like those that appear on passports or on the Rolex certificates.

After looking at the sale price for those machines (€4,500+) I just can't think that those dishonest sellers would go through the trouble of getting a machine to punch a certificate here and there. IMHO I bet those 'thieves' buy a machine to punch dozens of certificates or maybe more.

Just some more food for thought. This is repulsive!!!

[tuonor]

Originally Posted by Submarino

After looking at the sale price for those machines (€4,500+) I just can't think that those dishonest sellers would go through the trouble of getting a machine to punch a certificate here and there. IMHO I bet those 'thieves' buy a machine to punch dozens of certificates or maybe more.

Just some more food for thought. This is repulsive!!!

While eur4500 seems like alot, the reality is it only takes two or three "completed" red subs to pay back that investment. Throw in a double red and you've got a pretty nice return.

What worries me is how we as enthusiasts can stay ahead of the fakers. Seems with papers, even the most experienced dealers are saying you cant discern. I cant imagine the case and dial fakers are that far behind (a couple posts on VRF suggest they aren't). Archives like the VRF dial reference are double edged swords in this regard.

[MoBe]

Having a general interest in all things Rolex I have to say that any interest I may have had in vintage Rolex is greatly diminished by the fraudulent behaviour of handfull of individuals.It`s a good thing there are plenty of knowledgable people here that are paying close attention to what`s going on and because of this I still have hope of finding a good 1680 from one of TRF`s reputable sellers.I must say that I will now avoid any deal that involves original papers like the plague,,,,,,,what a shame.

[conrail]

Originally Posted by MoBe

Having a general interest in all things Rolex I have to say that any interest I may have had in vintage Rolex is greatly diminished by the fraudulent behaviour of handfull of individuals.It`s a good thing there are plenty of knowledgable people here that are paying close attention to what`s going on and because of this I still have hope of finding a good 1680 from one of TRF`s reputable sellers.I must say that I will now avoid any deal that involves original papers like the plague,,,,,,,what a shame.

You won't have any trouble finding a 1680 and there are plenty of reputable folks left. A 1680 white full set shouldn't be a problem with proper papers, red more challenging and you'll have to be more careful b/c the prices are much higher for one of these w/ papers, etc.

[Pete17]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan65

It is actually quite sad IMHO and gives the hobby a black eye. In this business if you can find one person you can trust-good for you--if you can find 2 or 3--even better. The dark side of the vintage world though is not good for any of us and no matter what anyone says--it affects all. I think most of us got into this for the pure love and passion of collecting vintage watches and not the filthy greed that has seeped into it. What a shame---but one I think the vintage world will feel for sometime as many regular folks will have lost trust.

Well said mate.
A sad day for vinatge Rolex fans IMHO.


But we will fight on and weed these reprobates out.

[learningtofly]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan65

It is actually quite sad IMHO and gives the hobby a black eye. In this business if you can find one person you can trust-good for you--if you can find 2 or 3--even better. The dark side of the vintage world though is not good for any of us and no matter what anyone says--it affects all. I think most of us got into this for the pure love and passion of collecting vintage watches and not the filthy greed that has seeped into it. What a shame---but one I think the vintage world will feel for sometime as many regular folks will have lost trust.

Spot on, Ken.

For me, it was something of an eye-opener; that said, I'd already decided that the majority of dealers are not for me. I'll stick to the few I'd trust without a second thought (one of whom has posted on here already) and private individuals with decent references to their name, and who happen to have what I'm looking for.

If that means I don't find what I want, then so be it.

[Submarino]

Originally Posted by learningtofly

spot on, ken.

For me, it was something of an eye-opener; that said, i'd already decided that the majority of dealers are not for me. I'll stick to the few i'd trust without a second thought (one of whom has posted on here already) and private individuals with decent references to their name, and who happen to have what i'm looking for.

If that means i don't find what i want, then so be it.

x2

[Racer X]

Hi folks, it's been a while since I've actively posted, but I have been popping in to lurk on a pretty consistent basis. I warm "hello" to my TRF friends with whom I haven't chatted for a while.

Wow, what a turn of events! Makes one really think carefully about the ol' "buy the seller" adage. Also makes me wonder about the "trusted vintage dealers list" sticky at the top of the vintage forum. While I do trust some of the people on the list, I'm not so sure about others on it, and even do not trust certain individuals on it based on past experiences. I'd hate for someone to get burned by thinking that if a guy is on the list, he must be okay. I understand that there is a disclaimer in the notes after the list, but I wonder if the power of the list would overcome any reservations someone might feel after reading the disclaimer (if they even see it). As always, just my two cents.

[Submarino]

Originally Posted by Racer X

Hi folks, it's been a while since I've actively posted, but I have been popping in to lurk on a pretty consistent basis. I warm "hello" to my TRF friends with whom I haven't chatted for a while.

Wow, what a turn of events! Makes one really think carefully about the ol' "buy the seller" adage. Also makes me wonder about the "trusted vintage dealers list" sticky at the top of the vintage forum. While I do trust some of the people on the list, I'm not so sure about others on it, and even do not trust certain individuals on it based on past experiences. I'd hate for someone to get burned by thinking that if a guy is on the list, he must be okay. I understand that there is a disclaimer in the notes after the list, but I wonder if the power of the list would overcome any reservations someone might feel after reading the disclaimer (if they even see it). As always, just my two cents.

Good point and good to see you again!

[DiamondJack]

Ultimately, for me it's all about honour.

Most of the people I have met or been in contact with on TRF have it in abundance and that's a rare and wonderful thing about TRF. Long may it continue

I visit VRF on occasions but don't post......partly because of the clunkiness of the site but also the feeling I get of an undercurrent, a sort of members club and the feeling that certain members are in cohorts with each other to ramp up certain watches or cover up certain issues......

This could be because of the very high values of many of the watches discussed....... But ultimately greed is a terrible human flaw that twists and corrupts even the best intentioned ...... as appears to have been the case with this issue ...... Very sad.....

My golden rule has always been PRIDE before PROFIT...... No question......No hesitation...... not even for a second. But clearly, there are people out there with their own agenda....... Just hope it doesn't backfire and have a negative impact the vintage world as a whole.

[CaveDiver]

Originally Posted by DiamondJack

I visit VRF on occasions but don't post......partly because of the clunkiness of the site but also the feeling I get of an undercurrent, a sort of members club and the feeling that certain members are in cohorts with each other to ramp up certain watches or cover up certain issues.......

I was starting to think I was the only one that got that “vibe”. As I told one moderator, I hope I’m wrong.

[renfield33]

i still don't understand how people surf the VRF. its user interface is from the 1990s. i think if you're going to buy a watch, buy it because it's a great watch, and skip out on the box and papers. of course, there are always people that want the "set."

it looks like unless you're buying from an unsuspecting individual (grandpa's watch with b+p) out in the real world, everything is suspect from now on.

[fusionstorm]

Originally Posted by renfield33

i still don't understand how people surf the VRF. its user interface is from the 1990s.

Do you have a better suggestion for where to find vintage Rolex for sale?

[renfield33]

Originally Posted by fusionstorm

Do you have a better suggestion for where to find vintage Rolex for sale?

not in the market for one, so no I don't. i do know i've tried to read the forum to learn about vintage, and it is so difficult to read i easily lose interest.

[conrail]

Originally Posted by fusionstorm

Do you have a better suggestion for where to find vintage Rolex for sale?

The VRM is very easy to read. VRF is more difficult.