And we are crying over watch flippers.....

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Don't really want to start a sh!t storm but I thought this was an interesting article.

As someone nearer the end than the beginning I've wondered for long time if all this consumerism is sustainable. We've gone through a 70 year period of ME, and since Covid and global warming we're getting a bit of a taste of how interconnected we all are on this planet.

I know, I know this is a Rolex forum ........yada yada..... but I'm sure there were guys with expensive watches that didn't make out all that well on the Titanic.

Tell me what you think. I'm putting my Gucci helmet on.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...delays/620465/

Seems to me for the last 50 years or so there’s been a certain percentage of our very own citizens that absolutely hate consumerism. I’ve never been able to quite understand this because it’s consumerism that raises the standard of living. The same people that complain about it always seem to be the same segment of society that claim to care the most about poverty. Well if you want to raise people out of poverty and improve their standard of living that’s done with consumerism. I would argue that when consumerism starts to decline so will the standard of living and the people who will be affected the most by it are the poor. So let’s hope the article is wrong.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Seems to me for the last 50 years or so there’s been a certain percentage of our very own citizens that absolutely hate consumerism. I’ve never been able to quite understand this because it’s consumerism that raises the standard of living. The same people that complain about it always seem to be the same segment of society that claim to care the most about poverty. Well if you want to raise people out of poverty and improve their standard of living that’s done with consumerism. I would argue that when consumerism starts to decline so will the standard of living and the people who will be affected the most by it are the poor. So let’s hope the article is wrong.

At the end of WW2 only about 2 countries, US and Canada were unscathed by the devastation. In fact the war effort even escalated our ability to produce goods. Consumerism was also a way to ramp up the economy and we began to live the good life.

50-70 years later now EVERYONE wants the good life. India, China, Russia, etc BUT is it sustainable. For all this time the US used a massive percentage of the world natural resources, and created massive pollution in the process until we exported it to China in the form of industrialization.

The US is not going to go quietly into the good night as you say, on the subject of consumerism, but at some point we have to realize that it's not sustainable.

We are on the brink on climate change, and rampant pollution from manufacturing, as well as the haves and the have nots at each others throats.

At some point we are going to have to find a different economic model or we are going to be in a lot of wars.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Blansky

At the end of WW2 only about 2 countries, US and Canada were unscathed by the devastation. In fact the war effort even escalated our ability to produce goods. Consumerism was also a way to ramp up the economy and we began to live the good life.

50-70 years later now EVERYONE wants the good life. India, China, Russia, etc BUT is it sustainable. For all this time the US used a massive percentage of the world natural resources, and created massive pollution in the process until we exported it to China in the form of industrialization.

The US is not going to go quietly into the good night as you say, on the subject of consumerism, but at some point we have to realize that it's not sustainable.

We are on the brink on climate change, and rampant pollution from manufacturing, as well as the haves and the have nots at each others throats.

At some point we are going to have to find a different economic model or we are going to be in a lot of wars.

The good life? I assume by that you mean access to a decent education, comfortable housing, medical needs attended to and heaven forbid occasional entertainment? Most people in China and India live in abject poverty and desolation. Why shouldn’t they want to climb out of that? How about climate change? Ah yes global warming. But we call it climate change now because it stopped warming. I’m not touching that with a 10 foot pole. Who are the bad news givers going to put up on the podium on the world stage to let those poor people in India and China know that it’s too bad for them and they will just have to continue living the way they do? I guess the US and Canada messed it up for everyone? Of course don’t forget Western Europe and South Korea. They always seem to get a pass.

Let me ask you this. If we get this so-called climate change under control in a way that satisfies the people concerned about it can we then work on poverty for the rest of the world? Can we do it without bringing down the standard of living of everyone else? That seems to be the idea of some. Shared misery is the answer. Of course never for those who actually make those decisions. They will always live in luxury but as far for the rest of us lowly people we need to sacrifice for the sake of the collective by significantly reducing our standard of living.

As far as natural resources go there’s no doubt the world especially first world countries could do a much better job recycling. That seems to be our Achilles’ heel for now but I’m sure that will be corrected in the not too distant future. It has to be.

My friend I still stand by capitalism and consumerism is the way to lift every human being on the planet out of poverty. In recorded human history they’ve seemed to have tried every other way and it doesn’t work. Forceful and controlling governments don’t feed, clothe and house people. I’m sure we can agree on that.

However my message to people that have a problem with consumerism is this. You first. Let me see you move into 100 square-foot house and get rid of your vehicles. Once you do that I will take you seriously and we can have a conversation about this. I would especially like to see the outspoken politicians do this. But generally these people deride consumerism and capitalism from their private jet or their mansion.

[Atone]

Originally Posted by Blansky

At the end of WW2 only about 2 countries, US and Canada were unscathed by the devastation. In fact the war effort even escalated our ability to produce goods. Consumerism was also a way to ramp up the economy and we began to live the good life.

50-70 years later now EVERYONE wants the good life. India, China, Russia, etc BUT is it sustainable. For all this time the US used a massive percentage of the world natural resources, and created massive pollution in the process until we exported it to China in the form of industrialization.

The US is not going to go quietly into the good night as you say, on the subject of consumerism, but at some point we have to realize that it's not sustainable.

We are on the brink on climate change, and rampant pollution from manufacturing, as well as the haves and the have nots at each others throats.

At some point we are going to have to find a different economic model or we are going to be in a lot of wars.

While there is little discomfort in the higher halls of decision making and a sense of entitlement married to fear for those just below, it will be very difficult to change the way in which we consume. I think about this a lot, what would it take so that “WE” could trend towards acting in the best interest of “US”. I don’t see humanity as all that invested in community the the more you zoom out which is sad. The fact that a storm is coming and we can’t even agree that it’s cloudy kind of says it all. The next few decades should be very interesting. We sure have made a mess.

[Crazy Canuck]

Thankfully auto dealers are not legally permitted to sell directly at over MSRP in Canada but there are ways they get around that if they so choose. Flipping to their related Leasing co is a popular solution. Personally I wouldn't pay a large "Market Adjustment."
My local Porsche dealer prefers to sell local and at MSRP. I got a 2018 Paint to Sample GT3 Touring I configured and I was late to the game at MSRP. I've got a Paint to Sample Audi RS6 on order from their Audi store. For them relationships matter but they are a family run dealership group.
Used vehicle pricing is unsustainable. We have a great relationship with a Ford dealer who is a friend. I traded in my 2018 F150 Lariat for more than I paid for it and got bit of a discount on an ordered F150 Platinum which I just picked up. We bought an F250 and 2 more F150s since Feb. Here is the crazy part. We had a couple of 2008 GMC diesel 4x4 pickups - a 2500 and a 3500 dually. The 2500 had 180,000 km and was no beauty. We got $25,000 for it and the dually with 190,000, $32,000. Stupid money. But no supply.
The market is nuts. When the bubble pops it isn't going to be pretty.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by Patton250

so-called climate change

I refer you to one of the phrases in your signature. Guess which.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by Atone

While there is little discomfort in the higher halls of decision making and a sense of entitlement married to fear for those just below, it will be very difficult to change the way in which we consume. I think about this a lot, what would it take so that “WE” could trend towards acting in the best interest of “US”. I don’t see humanity as all that invested in community the the more you zoom out which is sad. The fact that a storm is coming and we can’t even agree that it’s cloudy kind of says it all. The next few decades should be very interesting. We sure have made a mess.

Yes.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

I refer you to one of the phrases in your signature. Guess which.

I never said I didn’t believe. All I said is there is no way EVER to know for sure. Nice try though. I bet that felt good. Well,,,, before my response I mean.

Climate change!!! Another great religion.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I never said I didn’t believe. All I said is there is no way EVER to know for sure. Nice try though. I bet that felt good. Well,,,, before my response I mean.

Climate change!!! Another great religion.

Your response doesn't make much sense, TBF, unless it's tongue-in-cheek.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

Your response doesn't make much sense, TBF, unless it's tongue-in-cheek.

I think believe to him might be a more evangelical notion… his footnote a repudiation of knowledge more than anything else. But the discussion is moot, you’re never going to have an intelligent exchange with someone who regards scientifically well evidenced phenomenons like climate change as a something one may choose to believe in. Whether you believe in it or not, the temperature is the same for all of us. It’s not his fault though, he’s just part of the many folks who have been instrumentalized for decades in furtherance of certain political agendas and the silent concentration of wealth among the hands of a small group of wealthy donors. He’s not the problem, he’s but a symptom. So he’s not the place to start solving it either. Let the poor man believe. It’s all he has left.

[favre12rodgers]

It's pretty much happening across the board right now. We were really lucky to get 8% off a BMW X7 build from a broker two months ago.....but it would have been at MSRP if we had waited until now.

I have been looking at a new 22 M5 or X5M to replace my 19 M5 as my lease is up in December. However, everyone wants a minimum $5k over MSRP right now on both models. December is normally a great time to lease/buy due to dealers reaching for annual sales goals but it looks unlucky this time around.

Car manufacturers have seen what is going on with Rolex and are taking notice. Both BMW and Mercedes' CEOs have said in the last month that even after the chip shortage is over, there are going to start making less cars because they can get more profit per car versus what they were doing pre-shortage with more volume.

[HHIslander]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I think believe to him might be a more evangelical notion… his footnote a repudiation of knowledge more than anything else. But the discussion is moot, you’re never going to have an intelligent exchange with someone who regards scientifically well evidenced phenomenons like climate change as a something one may choose to believe in. Whether you believe in it or not, the temperature is the same for all of us. It’s not his fault though, he’s just part of the many folks who have been instrumentalized for decades in furtherance of certain political agendas and the silent concentration of wealth among the hands of a small group of wealthy donors. He’s not the problem, he’s but a symptom. So he’s not the place to start solving it either. Let the poor man believe. It’s all he has left.

Actually, the science behind climate change and other eco-science is not “well evidenced” by any objective measure.

For example, not one of the many climate change predictions made by the worlds top scientists on the world’s first Earth Day have ever come true.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ted-180958820/

Here’s another list of about 40 other scientific environmental predictions about climate change that have been wrong as well.

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-...c-predictions/

If you’re going to passively insult someone about their knowledge, I would suggest you educate yourself about the historical and current state of the validity and reliability of climate change research. The eco-scientists have been wrong far more often than they have been right. Dr. Walter Williams wrote a lot about this subject, as have many others. You should read what some of these folks have to say. I can give you a reading list if you would like.

https://www.pilotonline.com/opinion/...jom-story.html

Some folks in our society have weaponized climate change for votes, clicks, research grants and investment dollars. If you look at the totality of the climate change research, it would be impossible for any rational person to come to the conclusion that it’s “scientifically well-evidenced.” The overwhelming majority of the science is founded in opinions and spurious correlations.

No politician ever got elected without having a solution to a problem. If there are no major problems, they have to create some.

[1William]

Originally Posted by HHIslander

Actually, the science behind climate change and other eco-science is not “well evidenced” by any objective measure.

For example, not one of the many climate change predictions made by the worlds top scientists on the world’s first Earth Day have ever come true.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ted-180958820/

Here’s another list of about 40 other scientific environmental predictions about climate change that have been wrong as well.

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-...c-predictions/

If you’re going to passively insult someone about their knowledge, I would suggest you educate yourself about the historical and current state of the validity and reliability of climate change research. The eco-scientists have been wrong far more often than they have been right. Dr. Walter Williams wrote a lot about this subject, as have many others. You should read what some of these folks have to say. I can give you a reading list if you would like.

https://www.pilotonline.com/opinion/...jom-story.html

Some folks in our society have weaponized climate change for votes, clicks, research grants and investment dollars. If you look at the totality of the climate change research, it would be impossible for any rational person to come to the conclusion that it’s “scientifically well-evidenced.” The overwhelming majority of the science is founded in opinions and spurious correlations.

No politician ever got elected without having a solution to a problem. If there are no major problems, they have to create some.

Well said.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by HHIslander

Actually, the science behind climate change and other eco-science is not “well evidenced” by any objective measure.

For example, not one of the many climate change predictions made by the worlds top scientists on the world’s first Earth Day have ever come true.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ted-180958820/

Here’s another list of about 40 other scientific environmental predictions about climate change that have been wrong as well.

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-...c-predictions/

If you’re going to passively insult someone about their knowledge, I would suggest you educate yourself about the historical and current state of the validity and reliability of climate change research. The eco-scientists have been wrong far more often than they have been right. Dr. Walter Williams wrote a lot about this subject, as have many others. You should read what some of these folks have to say. I can give you a reading list if you would like.

https://www.pilotonline.com/opinion/...jom-story.html

Some folks in our society have weaponized climate change for votes, clicks, research grants and investment dollars. If you look at the totality of the climate change research, it would be impossible for any rational person to come to the conclusion that it’s “scientifically well-evidenced.” The overwhelming majority of the science is founded in opinions and spurious correlations.

No politician ever got elected without having a solution to a problem. If there are no major problems, they have to create some.

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

I'm not saying that every prediction of sometimes hysterical alarmists is true. I'm saying you can measure carbon. Many agencies do and the results are unequivocal.

Now what is also unequivocal is that people will base all kinds of theories and models on those simple measurements. Some better than others. But if you are using the fact these folks and their works exist to dispute the basic fact they are basing there views on, then your thinking is off by quite a bit and I suggest you re-calibrate (unless of course you're trying to push an agenda yourself, but even though that's what your post suggests, I will not venture into accusing you of that).

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by 1William

Well said.

Perhaps, but misleading nonetheless.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I think believe to him might be a more evangelical notion… his footnote a repudiation of knowledge more than anything else. But the discussion is moot, you’re never going to have an intelligent exchange with someone who regards scientifically well evidenced phenomenons like climate change as a something one may choose to believe in. Whether you believe in it or not, the temperature is the same for all of us. It’s not his fault though, he’s just part of the many folks who have been instrumentalized for decades in furtherance of certain political agendas and the silent concentration of wealth among the hands of a small group of wealthy donors. He’s not the problem, he’s but a symptom. So he’s not the place to start solving it either. Let the poor man believe. It’s all he has left.

We appear to be entering into a Neo-Dark Age, where "alternative facts" are put out by automated computers onto the internet, where they are eagerly lapped up by certain sections of the population. Far from being respected, scientists are now derided and even accused of making things up. There is no way to convince people who suspect everything is a huge conspiracy.

It looks to me that we are hastening our own extinction.

Homo Sapiens should perhaps be renamed as simply Homo.

Worth a look, or maybe not:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PRJL07-WK0

[V25V]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

Perhaps, but misleading nonetheless.

Great rebuttal.

And how did my GT3 thread turn into a climate change debate?

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

We appear to be entering into a Neo-Dark Age, where "alternative facts" are put out by automated computers onto the internet, where they are eagerly lapped up by certain sections of the population. Far from being respected, scientists are now derided and even accused of making things up. There is no way to convince people who suspect everything is a huge conspiracy.

It looks to me that we are hastening our own extinction.

Homo Sapiens should perhaps be renamed as simply Homo.

Worth a look, or maybe not:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PRJL07-WK0

You can only hope that fools like myself finally step in to the light and understand the brilliance of people like yourself. Meanwhile the people on your side walk around fully confident you are correct on everything and that anyone else that disagrees with you is an utter fool. Now decorum and forum rules prevent you from saying this here but that’s exactly what you want to say. It doesn’t even dawn on you that there are plenty of other people in the would, very smart people, that hold different opinions than you. I suspect the reason why is because to you that’s just utter foolishness and those people are beneath you. In fact as you read that very last sentence before this one I’m sure your eyes opened and you said to yourself “ ah, we finally agree”. I won’t even address the person you were responding to because he didn’t even hold back his distain for people that have the audacity to have different views than him.

PS-The most brilliant people I have have read that call BS on climate change, and there are plenty of them, are the least of people you would call religious. I imagine most of them are bigger agnostics than even you are. Climate change is an easy thing to follow. Just follow the money and funding. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again I will never take anyone serious on this subject until I see them change their own lives drastically to prove that they are actually a true believer. Show me that you live in a 200 square-foot house and don’t own a vehicle and I’ll entertain your opinion on this. Otherwise it’s just politics.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by V25V

Great rebuttal.

And how did my GT3 thread turn into a climate change debate?

Excellent point. I made a last post. I won’t post again on it here. Sorry.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by Patton250

You can only hope that fools like myself finally step in to the light and understand the brilliance of people like yourself. Meanwhile the people on your side walk around fully confident you are correct on everything and that anyone else that disagrees with you is an utter fool. Now decorum and forum rules prevent you from saying this here but that’s exactly what you want to say.

And now you are a mindreader.

I don't know whether you realise how offensive your posts are. I deliberately didn't get involved in the Universe thread.

FWIW, I'm a physician. Not the cleverest, but no slouch, either. What is your scientific background?

[V25V]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Excellent point. I made a last post. I won’t post again on it here. Sorry.

No, its all good. I was chuckling about it but think you have handled your end of things very professionally and with content. His comment I quoted above, well that is where these types of discussions turn into closed threads and shows what sheep much of our society has turned into.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by Patton250

You can only hope that fools like myself finally step in to the light and understand the brilliance of people like yourself. Meanwhile the people on your side walk around fully confident you are correct on everything and that anyone else that disagrees with you is an utter fool. Now decorum and forum rules prevent you from saying this here but that’s exactly what you want to say. It doesn’t even dawn on you that there are plenty of other people in the would, very smart people, that hold different opinions than you. I suspect the reason why is because to you that’s just utter foolishness and those people are beneath you. In fact as you read that very last sentence before this one I’m sure your eyes opened and you said to yourself “ ah, we finally agree”. I won’t even address the person you were responding to because he didn’t even hold back his distain for people that have the audacity to have different views than him.

PS-The most brilliant people I have have read that call BS on climate change, and there are plenty of them, are the least of people you would call religious. I imagine most of them are bigger agnostics than even you are. Climate change is an easy thing to follow. Just follow the money and funding. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again I will never take anyone serious on this subject until I see them change their own lives drastically to prove that they are actually a true believer. Show me that you live in a 200 square-foot house and don’t own a vehicle and I’ll entertain your opinion on this. Otherwise it’s just politics.

Oh the self pity…

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by V25V

No, its all good. I was chuckling about it but think you have handled your end of things very professionally and with content. His comment I quoted above, well that is where these types of discussions turn into closed threads and shows what sheep much of our society has turned into.

The inadvertently-amusing reality about the Covid conspiracy theorists is that while they call people who aren't on their side "sheep", they also advocate medication for sheep (ivermectin) as a treatment for Covid!

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by V25V

No, its all good. I was chuckling about it but think you have handled your end of things very professionally and with content. His comment I quoted above, well that is where these types of discussions turn into closed threads and shows what sheep much of our society has turned into.

What’s wrong with sheep? They just stand on their hillside and none of them deny reality… the wolf is out there, they all now it, and only the very stupid ones leave the flock pretending it’s not true.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

And now you are a mindreader.

I don't know whether you realise how offensive your posts are. I deliberately didn't get involved in the Universe thread.

FWIW, I'm a physician. Not the cleverest, but no slouch, either. What is your scientific background?

I realize that my opinions are always offensive to the people that hold your opinions. This is not new and I deal with it all the time. Why is it your opinions aren’t offensive to me? I can handle your opinions just fine. But if someone disagrees with you you get offended? I’m sorry you feel that way. Nowhere in my post did I purposely offend you other than holding a different opinion. If that’s offensive then I’m sure you’ll find a way to deal with it.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

The inadvertently-amusing reality about the Covid conspiracy theorists is that while they call people who aren't on their side "sheep", they also advocate medication for sheep (ivermectin) as a treatment for Covid!

I believe most people these days have been conditioned to believe every word they read or hear in the news and not question those who spew them. That goes for those on either side of any argument. I was not singling anyone out but the poster above who does not seem to have any actual context to backup his position, which is sheep-esque to me.

And how are we now on Covid?

[HHIslander]

Originally Posted by 1William

Well said.

Thank you!

And apologies to OP for derailing your thread. Won’t happen further.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by V25V

No, its all good. I was chuckling about it but think you have handled your end of things very professionally and with content. His comment I quoted above, well that is where these types of discussions turn into closed threads and shows what sheep much of our society has turned into.

I agree. Now he’s bringing Covid into it. They just can’t help themselves. Oh well. I have a busy day. Have a great day.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

The inadvertently-amusing reality about the Covid conspiracy theorists is that while they call people who aren't on their side "sheep", they also advocate medication for sheep (ivermectin) as a treatment for Covid!

The sad truth of the matter is that these folks don’t need opposition to lean against, they need help. But I don’t think anyone has figured out how to quite help them yet. You probably can’t on an individual level, but If you got people to pay taxes as they should, you could at least give these folks some sense of security in a world that’s increasingly crushing them, proper hospitals to go to when they’re sick, proper schools, etc. Over time, that would probably lead them out of the very dark corner they like to paint themselves into so much… where they can feel like the poor victims they make themselves out to be. But given how many of them are actively undermining any effort to do that on behalf of a wealth bracket they’ll never belong to, we’ll probably have to let them drift off into opioids…

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I agree. Now he’s bringing Covid into it. They just can’t help themselves. Oh well. I have a busy day. Have a great day.

Oh so you are back after all… already missed you