ADs don't like to sell to flippers?

[Max7857]

All of this talk reminds me of a line a read in a book once. I can’t remember the name of the book but I never forgot the line lol.

“The collective pooling of ignorance does not equal knowledge.”

[Bizcut1]

Originally Posted by Max7857

All of this talk reminds me of a line a read in a book once. I can’t remember the name of the book but I never forgot the line lol.

“The collective pooling of ignorance does not equal knowledge.”

I remember that one!



However, my experience is first hand. And I expressed it as such. And it only applies to my one relationship with my trusted AD.

[jlovda]

Oil and other commodity traders on Wall Street are all flippers. Do we need them?

[Seibei]

I know my AD would never in a million years have sold my watch to me if he thought I was a flipper. I got my watch because I am a bona fide enthusiast. I want to wear my watch and enjoy it. If I want an investment I will buy stocks or something like that.

[bobodrink]

Rolex actually did some market scraping and bought back watches. They will see where the watch is sold from via the warranty card. The worse thing for Rolex to see is to have a brand new Rolex on sale within a month of the date stamped. The AD will lose their partnership that way.

What my AD told me is they will rather sell to a person they seem to be really interested in the watch and an enthusiasts. Of course they can't be right all the time, so long as they take off all the stickers, date the warranty card and make all the necessary steps to make sure they diminishes the gray market value while still a new watch they will be good.

Long story short, Rolex is cracking down on re-sellers, and they pressure ADs to not sell to random people or else they will lose their partnership.

[dchernikoff]

AD's are people too. Hey if you have to stand behind a counter all day, in a store that's empty 70% of the time, you have to do something to make your life interesting. Most of the AD's I've talked to seem to like to chat. In fact, I know several that hardly let me get a word in, they're so busy making chit-chat (and sometime also talking about watches, fortunately).

Sure they like to sell, but I'm under the impression that they can't sell new watches above MSRP. So it must sting a bit to sell a watch knowing that the buyer was going to make an immediate profit on it, one that they could make but the company doesn't allow them to. So by selling to "keepers" at MSRP (which is below the "market rate" that flippers have established) instead of to flippers, they do two things: 1) give the customer a thrill by getting a rare watch "cheap" (and thereby building customer loyalty), and 2) thumbing their noses at the flippers that make the premiums that the AD is denied.

Makes perfect sense to me that they hate selling to flippers, Rolex policy or not!

-Dan

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by 037

Try telling an AD that you need a BLRO to replace the Daytona you just sold. I don't see many ADs feeling sorry for you.

If he’s in on it he might. I was making this example less to show how I’d ”bamboozle” anyone, which would be a bit of a ridiculous effort, and more to make the point that principles only ever stand as long as everyone respects them. Once that’s gone in two or three actors, everything can be spun. Look at current politics. Not gonna point any fingers here and not seeking to reference anything specifically, but I think we can all observe that the age of standing by principles appears to be over.

[cerendigit]

Originally Posted by Seibei

I got my watch because I am a bona fide enthusiast.

Sorry, couldn't help but at this.

EDIT: Also to people that are saying "ADs like to sell to watch enthusiast, because they will love the watches more" ... Give me a break.

[djyolky]

Originally Posted by cerendigit

Sorry, couldn't help but at this.

EDIT: Also to people that are saying "ADs like to sell to watch enthusiast, because they will love the watches more" ... Give me a break.

Hilarious isn't it? How altruistic of them.

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[golden_time]

Rolex have been consistently closing down accounts in the UK, and if you are known to be selling watches that are then flipped you have a black mark against you.
Equally, if you buy a Rolex, flip it and the AD finds out - you're blacklisted. No more watches for you.
Would an AD rather sell hundreds of thousands of pounds of watches year on year, or take a backhander to supply a steel professional model to one client (a grey or a flipper) and then lose the account?
Rolex want AD's to encourage repeat custom, and build local client bases - trustworthy known clients.

AD's do not like to sell to flippers. fact. It's not worth it.

[1William]

Interesting posts. I think that the AD's are in a difficult situation with demand outstripping supply and customers taking it more than personal in some situations. I think we all know what a Flipper for profit is and most AD's will not sell hot models to individuals they do not know or have a long term relationship with. The game playing and sucking up to AD's seems to be the norm and I doubt the outcome is very different. Unless you just luck up most AD's sell to customers based on relationships and money spent. Just a fact of business. Another fact is even if the AD had the watch many of those inquiring about, they could not buy it on the spot anyway. I very seldom buy Rolex from my AD anymore, as I just don't feel like the dance, wait and the fact that most times I am made to feel like they are doing me a favor. I have come to terms with them though. On hard to come by watches or LE/SE from other brands should I decide I no longer want the watch I offer it back to my AD first at fair market value. On several occasions my AD has taken the watch back and on other occasions they do not want it back and I sell/trade it in the Grey Market. No feelings involved, no emotions just watches.

[Devildog]

Originally Posted by cerendigit

Sorry, couldn't help but at this.

EDIT: Also to people that are saying "ADs like to sell to watch enthusiast, because they will love the watches more" ... Give me a break.

Its not as unlikely as you may think.

If, in the context of your original thread question, we take the scenario where the AD isn't selling direct to resellers for a share in the profit, the AD has the choice of:

A) selling to any tom dick or harry without any due diligence as to whether they will simply flip the watch for profit or

b) Selling to known clients/enthusiasts/acquaintances who will not simply flip for profit.

Given that the ADs can sell every popular reference they are supplied with, the base financial outcome is the same for the AD.

So why risk incurring the wrath of Rolex (I know for a fact that Rolex's UK subsidiary does not want ADs selling to "flippers") and pissing off your existing customer base?

Rolex ADs operate under strict agency agreements with Rolex (as is of course the norm) What the AD does with the watch after they receive it from Rolex is, under the terms of that agreement, Rolex's business. Contractually at least.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by 1William

Interesting posts. I think that the AD's are in a difficult situation with demand outstripping supply and customers taking it more than personal in some situations. I think we all know what a Flipper for profit is and most AD's will not sell hot models to individuals they do not know or have a long term relationship with. The game playing and sucking up to AD's seems to be the norm and I doubt the outcome is very different. Unless you just luck up most AD's sell to customers based on relationships and money spent. Just a fact of business. Another fact is even if the AD had the watch many of those inquiring about, they could not buy it on the spot anyway. I very seldom buy Rolex from my AD anymore, as I just don't feel like the dance, wait and the fact that most times I am made to feel like they are doing me a favor. I have come to terms with them though. On hard to come by watches or LE/SE from other brands should I decide I no longer want the watch I offer it back to my AD first at fair market value. On several occasions my AD has taken the watch back and on other occasions they do not want it back and I sell/trade it in the Grey Market. No feelings involved, no emotions just watches.

Good post

[Bizcut1]

Originally Posted by cerendigit

Sorry, couldn't help but at this.

EDIT: Also to people that are saying "ADs like to sell to watch enthusiast, because they will love the watches more" ... Give me a break.

Laugh all you want if it helps. I got mine the same way. And will get the next one after that because of the same reasons.

Good luck!

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Bizcut1

Laugh all you want if it helps. I got mine the same way. And will get the next one after that because of the same reasons.

Good luck!

Me too.

[seand442]

While some flippers are more obvious, it isn't tough for someone to claim it was bought as a gift for someone, who doesn't want it. The fact that the watch may be listed for close to double the MSRP is surely a coincidence.

[SpeedyTuomas]

Originally Posted by cerendigit

Sorry, couldn't help but at this.

EDIT: Also to people that are saying "ADs like to sell to watch enthusiast, because they will love the watches more" ... Give me a break.

I for one too think people are overanalyzing things a bit too much..they are watches and it is the ADs business to sell them. Silly zero-interest market.

[214270Explorer]

Originally Posted by Nav01L

I fully understand what you say and I’d love things to be that way too, I also trust that you have a fantastic relationship with your AD. But I see neither a 116500, nor a pepsi, nor a blue steel SkD in your footer... so I’m wondering how exactly this relationship you’ve built by being an upright honest and very respectful customer may have put you ahead of that friendly Gentleman from Asia that took your AD out for a nice dinner, bought out his stock of Datejusts at retail and is getting all the allocation pieces since?

Can't say for sure about all this, Nav01L, but I suspect you are absolutely correct.

I have never expressed interest in any of those models, and my sales rep actually has asked me why I was not pursuing any of them as is everyone else.

My sales guy has told me (and other customers in the store) that the "wait on the SS models is currently many years." Which we all know is code for "we get them, but just not for you."

So . . . even though I do have a good relationship, he has literally told me that I would not be getting any of those models. Seems to me that the "whales" are definitely involved there. That's OK, they did get me the hard to obtain Rolesor Sky-Dweller white dial, which was very much appreciated by me.

Such is life though. I am happy with my current small collection. The last watch I looked at and thought I wanted for my collection was the Tudor Advisor, but with the ETA movement and really loose-feeling (cheapish tactile feel) operating crowns, I passed.

[Calatrava r]

Originally Posted by brandrea

So, you invest say a million and a half dollars and open an AD,. There isn’t a small part of you that isn’t irked by that guy who came into your store yesterday to buy that Daytona at MRSP as a grad gift for his son, only to see it advertised the next day for double what he paid?

I think I can say my AD would not be impressed.

You never know, maybe his son did not graduate.

[CoveWatch]

Don't get why Rolex would hate the grey market... its the best marketing they could get and costs them the least! Who else is going to advertise and represent their product at their high market values and make everybody want a rolex? Publicly, sure, they have to say they don't like it, etc etc but internally, I'm sure they're loving the fact that they're selling more watches than they've ever had.

For AD's, I do think they somewhat detest flippers because they're making money off their product that they themselves cannot make so there's a sour feeling there... but ultimately I think AD's decide to sell to whomever they believe will yield them the most future business and they make decisions based on it. Whether that be to a grey dealer, a big whale or even a "flipper" who buys tons of inventory regularly, I think its mostly about business.

Grey dealers are seen as the enemy sometimes but its not fair. They're just trying to make a living like every other business out there. Maybe we should do a search to find the threads on people complaining about getting big discounts from grey dealers back when AD's couldn't sell through. It's just a double standard to me and I think the market price should be the assumed price is all. Just my opinions of course.

[djyolky]

Originally Posted by CoveWatch

Don't get why Rolex would hate the grey market... its the best marketing they could get and costs them the least! Who else is going to advertise and represent their product at their high market values and make everybody want a rolex? Publicly, sure, they have to say they don't like it, etc etc but internally, I'm sure they're loving the fact that they're selling more watches than they've ever had.

For AD's, I do think they somewhat detest flippers because they're making money off their product that they themselves cannot make so there's a sour feeling there... but ultimately I think AD's decide to sell to whomever they believe will yield them the most future business and they make decisions based on it. Whether that be to a grey dealer, a big whale or even a "flipper" who buys tons of inventory regularly, I think its mostly about business.

Grey dealers are seen as the enemy sometimes but its not fair. They're just trying to make a living like every other business out there. Maybe we should do a search to find the threads on people complaining about getting big discounts from grey dealers back when AD's couldn't sell through. It's just a double standard to me and I think the market price should be the assumed price is all. Just my opinions of course.

According to Rolex, grey dealers are the enemy, full stop.

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[Nairn1980]

Originally Posted by Bizcut1

Laugh all you want if it helps. I got mine the same way. And will get the next one after that because of the same reasons.

Good luck!

I agree with you entirely and my experience is the same

[Claven2]

I had this chat with my AD last week. Their take is that they want to sell their more desirable pieces (read hard to get) to local enthusiasts that will have a longer term relationship with them and spend money there over a span of months and years. Selling to flippers, more often than not, means phone and internet sales and often no repeat business.

I think many jewelers are in it for the long game, not a quick sale that they can easily direct to someone that actually helps them keep the lights on, day in and day out.

Many of these repeat clients are not just watch people. Most have wives and buy jewellery from them too.

[Marcjvr]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I wish I could type slower for you. I am close with 8 AD’s. Some of them are personal friends of mine. Most of them don’t know each other. All of them say the exact same thing. They all say the word came from Rolex themselves to not sell to flippers. Why do you think they are taking the stickers off now? Just for fun? Is that speculation? Most AD’s are even scared to ship the watch for you and won’t do it. That came from Rolex also. Is that speculation? Why don’t you try calling an AD in a different state and ask them to ship you a watch. Get back to us on that. I have AD friends (only 3) that won’t even take payment over the phone, hold the watch and allow me to pick it up weeks later. They will only take payment in person. Is that speculation? Good grief.

LOL don’t you think if Rolex truly cared that much about flippers they could do one of 3 things

1. Increase supply to meet demand
2. Reprice MSRP at market value
3. Tell the ADs they can sell hot models at market value and ignore MSRP

The haven’t done any of those things.

Take everything your AD “friends” tell you with a pinch of salt

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Marcjvr

LOL don’t you think if Rolex truly cared that much about flippers they could do one of 3 things

1. Increase supply to meet demand
2. Reprice MSRP at market value
3. Tell the ADs they can sell hot models at market value and ignore MSRP

The haven’t done any of those things.

Take everything your AD “friends” tell you with a pinch of salt

1. They did increase supply. AD’s received more of each model in 2019 than they did in 2018. They are also producing more for 2020.
2. Obviously they feel they’re pricing is correct. They probably realize when the economy calms down so will most of the silliness. By silliness I mean people paying 23K for a Daytona. It’s not worth 23K. If it was Rolex would charge that at retail MSRP.
3. I’m not sure why they don’t allow the AD’s to do this but I sure am glad they don’t. No company does it that I’m aware of. No watch manufacturer I mean.

[WRISTROLEX]

My plan. Over the next twelve months I plan to buy one piece per month. Then resell it within thirty days, all from the same AD. Doesn't matter the model or price, I'll lay out say 40k for this experiment. After 12 months I'll be wanting that SS Daytona white face. Do you honestly think the AD won't sell me the 12, or find me the exclusive 500ln at retail? Bet your ass they would! After this exercise who's on top? Would have been less expensive and quicker to just buy grey to begin with???



It's a fun game to guess, but what is clear is, Rolex knows exactly what they're doing.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by WRISTROLEX

My plan. Over the next twelve months I plan to buy one piece per month. Then resell it within thirty days, all from the same AD. Doesn't matter the model or price, I'll lay out say 40k for this experiment. After 12 months I'll be wanting that SS Daytona white face. Do you honestly think the AD won't sell me the 12, or find me the exclusive 500ln at retail? Bet your ass they would! After this exercise who's on top? Would have been less expensive and quicker to just buy grey to begin with???



It's a fun game to guess, but what is clear is, Rolex knows exactly what they're doing.

That would make you a grey dealer not a flipper. It’s well-established that AD’s have relationships with grey dealers. In this case your scenario would be correct. They would sell the Daytona to the grey dealer.

Only one caveat. You would have to find an AD willing to enter into this type of relationship with you and then you could start that process. If it was easy everyone would do it.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by Patton250

1. They did increase supply. AD’s received more of each model in 2019 than they did in 2018. They are also producing more for 2020.
2. Obviously they feel they’re pricing is correct. They probably realize when the economy calms down so will most of the silliness. By silliness I mean people paying 23K for a Daytona. It’s not worth 23K. If it was Rolex would charge that at retail MSRP.
3. I’m not sure why they don’t allow the AD’s to do this but I sure am glad they don’t. No company does it that I’m aware of. No watch manufacturer I mean.

1. “They did increase supply” - I also read this in the memo that Rolex Headquarters in Switzerland sent to me. Also the 5 AD’s that I frequent told me the same thing, and I believe 100% of what they tell me.
2. “Correct pricing”- that was also in this months memo.

[Token74]

Some amazing responses...simply amazing.

Accusations that’s AD’s just care about making money.

I’d be amazed if this ain’t the case!! They are a business!! Sure, they may care about customer service and other such niceties, but only in the interests of making money!! Whether that be short term or long term (chains tend to care about short term, small locals tend to care more about long term for obvious reasons). Lots in this forum tend to be critical of AD’s for just caring about money, I find that odd.


Suggestions that AD’s shouldn’t care about Flippers.

Wrong! Rolex do care and do track. They clearly can’t track every watch or every deal, but if it happens publicly and happens to get picked up, AD’s are at risk of losing their status if there are multiple examples. Sure, Rolex want the grey market, without it they wouldn’t have been in a position to up the prices recently. But...they are also very protective of their brand, so have to find the right balance.


None of this is complicated. None of it is controversial. None of it is particularly new.

It may also be the case that there is an acceptance that a certain number of high demand pieces need to go to grey dealers to enable AD’s to shift the very low demand PM pieces that they are forced to take from Rolex. Rolex make them take those pieces, but clearly don’t want them offering large discounts to shift them as that damages the brand. However, a grey dealer offering at discounted rates is fine. This last bit is speculation on my part rather than knowledge.


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[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Token74

Some amazing responses...simply amazing.

Accusations that’s AD’s just care about making money.

I’d be amazed if this ain’t the case!! They are a business!! Sure, they may care about customer service and other such niceties, but only in the interests of making money!! Whether that be short term or long term (chains tend to care about short term, small locals tend to care more about long term for obvious reasons). Lots in this forum tend to be critical of AD’s for just caring about money, I find that odd.


Suggestions that AD’s shouldn’t care about Flippers.

Wrong! Rolex do care and do track. They clearly can’t track every watch or every deal, but if it happens publicly and happens to get picked up, AD’s are at risk of losing their status if there are multiple examples. Sure, Rolex want the grey market, without it they wouldn’t have been in a position to up the prices recently. But...they are also very protective of their brand, so have to find the right balance.


None of this is complicated. None of it is controversial. None of it is particularly new.

It may also be the case that there is an acceptance that a certain number of high demand pieces need to go to grey dealers to enable AD’s to shift the very low demand PM pieces that they are forced to take from Rolex. Rolex make them take those pieces, but clearly don’t want them offering large discounts to shift them as that damages the brand. However, a grey dealer offering at discounted rates is fine. This last bit is speculation on my part rather than knowledge.


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I totally agree and stated the same thing. Then a couple of people chimed in and said that was utter nonsense. LOL