The current state of Patek and new customers

[Becweb]

Originally Posted by ganiccus

and how new customers can be flippers if they can never get access to those watches in the first place??? you think there are many new comers to the brand who can score a hot sports model as their first piece? it's the big time collectors who recoup a part of the costs of their expensive grand complications by flipping the nautilus and the aquanauts, they are the problem.

if thierry stern was actually a savy businessman, he would ramp up significantly the production of aquanauts and raise the MSRP of the whole line (lets say 10-20%) at the same time to kill the premiums on the secondary market and stop people from flipping them for a profit. It would then become an entry level sports watch for the younger generation who wants to be a part of the Patek family, in a similar fashion to the Royal Oak Offshore collection with AP. It would give them access to a nice sports watch from the brand that they may or may not resell in the future without getting scalped, like with most of the calatrava and complications lines right now. Because seriously, how long do you think Patek and their AD network can run this scheme of selling outdated dress watches to the newcomers in order to have a chance of getting access to their allocation pieces?

Agree with almost everything said here. Again, some new buyers definitely are in there for a profit, but the ones getting access to the nautilus and aquanauts are very rare, yet plenty are available in the grey market. Obviously, it's people who have extensive purchase history and no need for these watches that are flipping them. This concept of selling hot pieces to existing clientele is BS if you ask me.

[chiscott_29]

Originally Posted by Becweb

Agree with almost everything said here. Again, some new buyers definitely are in there for a profit, but the ones getting access to the nautilus and aquanauts are very rare, yet plenty are available in the grey market. Obviously, it's people who have extensive purchase history and no need for these watches that are flipping them. This concept of selling hot pieces to existing clientele is BS if you ask me.

I agree with you and it is this which makes my blood boil. Does anybody think the supply is coming only from unscrupulous ADs? It absolutely is not.

Yet, no real effort is put in to understanding what new customers desire or that they actually really may only want a 5711 or 5167/5164 to actually have and enjoy. It's an automatic "no, that's not for you". Yet, the hot models continue to go to the VIPs time and time again. In some cases, repeatedly so with the same references.

I get the business side in treating your VIP customers well, but Patek (and AP and Rolex as well) takes it to an extreme that is really frustrating.

I love many of the Patek sports models. And just being honest, I can easily count on 1 hand how many Calatravas, Complications, or Grand Complications interest me. That doesn't make me a flipper or any less deserving. But, Patek has made their priority clear for now you have to pay to play. I can complain all I want but it isn't changing and all I can do is not patronize them.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

I get the business side in treating your VIP customers well, but Patek (and AP and Rolex as well) takes it to an extreme that is really frustrating.

And that's why many longtime enthusiasts have smartly migrated to FP Journe for ultra-high quality movement / decoration, MB&F for truly brilliant mechanical movements, Panerai for durability, Bvlgari for world-record movements and stylish casing, etc.

Those who choose to live in the consumer-created Rollie, PP, AP bubble get what you....

[Mr. Miami]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

I agree with you and it is this which makes my blood boil. Does anybody think the supply is coming only from unscrupulous ADs? It absolutely is not.

Yet, no real effort is put in to understanding what new customers desire or that they actually really may only want a 5711 or 5167/5164 to actually have and enjoy. It's an automatic "no, that's not for you". Yet, the hot models continue to go to the VIPs time and time again. In some cases, repeatedly so with the same references.

I get the business side in treating your VIP customers well, but Patek (and AP and Rolex as well) takes it to an extreme that is really frustrating.

I love many of the Patek sports models. And just being honest, I can easily count on 1 hand how many Calatravas, Complications, or Grand Complications interest me. That doesn't make me a flipper or any less deserving. But, Patek has made their priority clear for now you have to pay to play. I can complain all I want but it isn't changing and all I can do is not patronize them.

That is why I just accepted it and plan on buying the sports PP grey that I want. I like and appreciate the watch way more then my anger towards paying double retail. but hey i want it so that’s how it is. Won’t lose sleep on it.

[kneedeep]

Originally Posted by Mr. Miami

That is why I just accepted it and plan on buying the sports PP grey that I want. I like and appreciate the watch way more then my anger towards paying double retail. but hey i want it so that’s how it is. Won’t lose sleep on it.

That's a smart way to look at it and your choice on how to obtain a hot model now. Eventually the cycle will play out for whatever reason; and when the music stops, there will be many contestants and winners in the threads about the most money paid for different models of sports watches.

[fsprow]

Sometimes the music never stops.

Rolling Stones performing since 1962 !!

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

And that's why many longtime enthusiasts have smartly migrated to FP Journe for ultra-high quality movement / decoration, MB&F for truly brilliant mechanical movements, Panerai for durability, Bvlgari for world-record movements and stylish casing, etc.

Those who choose to live in the consumer-created Rollie, PP, AP bubble get what you....

This is true. While Patek tends to continue evolving the Aquanaut, Nautilus and throws in some cool variation here and there, I have 5 of the pieces that I must have and the rest is just icing. I have been obsessed with Journe and other brands while retaining my core 5 Pateks.

[Michael T]

I just checked Patek’swebsite and at 5711a is $33,710. This is strong money for a stainless watch. Patek should increase production where at that price there is an adequate supply where the wait is reasonably six months. This self imposed exclusivity is crazy. Coupled with long service times, turned me off to the brand.

[chiscott_29]

Originally Posted by Michael T

I just checked Patek’swebsite and at 5711a is $33,710. This is strong money for a stainless watch. Patek should increase production where at that price there is an adequate supply where the wait is reasonably six months. This self imposed exclusivity is crazy. Coupled with long service times, turned me off to the brand.

Do this and the entire house of cards crumbles. Don’t get me wrong it’d be great if you want a SS model, but in short order demand would fall as the market value crumbles. And there would be a bloodbath for the Complications.

[sgwatchguy]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Do this and the entire house of cards crumbles. Don’t get me wrong it’d be great if you want a SS model, but in short order demand would fall as the market value crumbles. And there would be a bloodbath for the Complications.

Agree.

AP appears to have a better formula... appealing to a younger audience, more accessible, except the rarest by design ROs and LEs. And better client experience by design.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by sgwatchguy

Agree.

AP appears to have a better formula... appealing to a younger audience, more accessible, except the rarest by design ROs and LEs. And better client experience by design.

i think AP has it right tbh. getting a non blue 15500 is a reasonable wait time of up to a year in most places and chronos are easier

[texasmade]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Do this and the entire house of cards crumbles. Don’t get me wrong it’d be great if you want a SS model, but in short order demand would fall as the market value crumbles. And there would be a bloodbath for the Complications.

Do you think more people would be willing to play the game if they knew there was some guarantee that they would get the watch they want?

I know if I had some guarantee that I could’ve gotten a white 5711 if I bought a 5146 or something like that, I would’ve played the game. Since it’s a giant crapshoot with AD’s, I don’t really bother. I spend my money on other hobbies.

[chiscott_29]

Originally Posted by texasmade

Do you think more people would be willing to play the game if they knew there was some guarantee that they would get the watch they want?

I know if I had some guarantee that I could’ve gotten a white 5711 if I bought a 5146 or something like that, I would’ve played the game. Since it’s a giant crapshoot with AD’s, I don’t really bother. I spend my money on other hobbies.

Totally. That’s the thing I think AD’s don’t understand. I don’t need “the prize” immediately but it has to be within the realm of reason and there has to be a commitment on their end to do it. There is no reason they cannot fulfill almost any hot reference within 2 years.

I view their commitment the same as my commitment in buying other references that may not be my end goal but demonstrate my commitment to the brand. I feel this is healthy and sustainable, but these days somebody is always trying to take advantage (whether it be the AD or the end consumer).

This may not appeal to some people though as they want more immediate fulfillment, and I can see that point. ADs are getting squeezed and there’s no guarantee they’ll even be around in 2 years. So, if you don’t get what you want now, you’re always rolling the dice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aj_tucker]

I don't get the sports trend anymore...the dress watches in each Patek, AP, etc. are far more compelling. All Rolex's look the same to me anymore that I'm thinking of clearing them out. Yes, they are robust and can take a beating...but why do I need a watch to take a beating? I'll just not wear a watch if my arms are going to get mangled!

[Murcielagoboy2]

Thierry should NOT optimise his business for the fashion-victim, premium-seekers dying for sports models to show off with on Instagram. It would be optimising the business for a FAD.
PP has prospered in the past because of its resolute conservatism based around building the finest watches in the world for it's cognoscenti collectors. And these guys are the ones that REALLY spend and keep the business afloat year-in and year-out.

The Rolex Daytona refugees, and those of you that consider a watch with a strap to be "outdated" or "a dress watch" are exactly the type the customers that will flee the moment the premiums evaporate, or your favourite "celeb" is seen wearing a different brand...

So to build the business around your needs will mean Thierry will have a one-trick-pony brand like AP.

The vast majority of the "new customers" clamouring for Patek are ones Thierry doesn't want. They don't want a Patek. They want the zeitgeist.

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by Becweb

Agree with almost everything said here. Again, some new buyers definitely are in there for a profit, but the ones getting access to the nautilus and aquanauts are very rare, yet plenty are available in the grey market. Obviously, it's people who have extensive purchase history and no need for these watches that are flipping them. This concept of selling hot pieces to existing clientele is BS if you ask me.

Attributing all of this to ad hoc selling by lucky collectors is a bit naive. Most of the hot pieces on the grey market are the result of ADs selling them to greys bypassing ”legitimate” customers (both VIPs and noobies) altogether. Some of them may do it through friends, family and customers acting as patsies or middlemen. Make no mistake of it, the ADs aren’t stupid and they know exactly how to maximize their share of the market premium all while juggling customer demands and dodging The PP inquisitorial hammer.

The next step of conspiratorial logic would have PP themselves both supply the grey market with hot watches -and- selectively buying them to prop up the price. As opposed to the AD backdoor I haven’t heard or seen any concrete proof of this happening. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least, though.

[Billfav]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

Thierry should NOT optimise his business for the fashion-victim, premium-seekers dying for sports models to show off with on Instagram. It would be optimising the business for a FAD.
PP has prospered in the past because of its resolute conservatism based around building the finest watches in the world for it's cognoscenti collectors. And these guys are the ones that REALLY spend and keep the business afloat year-in and year-out.

The Rolex Daytona refugees, and those of you that consider a watch with a strap to be "outdated" or "a dress watch" are exactly the type the customers that will flee the moment the premiums evaporate, or your favourite "celeb" is seen wearing a different brand...

So to build the business around your needs will mean Thierry will have a one-trick-pony brand like AP.

The vast majority of the "new customers" clamouring for Patek are ones Thierry doesn't want. They don't want a Patek. They want the zeitgeist.

Agree 1000% and I believe that is PP thought process. They don't want to become an AP. Really who lusts after an AP model that is not a Royal Oak or Royal Oak Offshore? As a result the trickle down is limited sports models for the AD's to distribute. The AD's then get the knock on how they chose to distribute it.

As far as AD's treatment of their customers, I would do the same thing. If I only got a few 5711's I would offer them to my Patek clients first and after them to my loyal customers. Not just to reward their business but to satisfy a raving fan for the brand. Where it gets ugly is when an AD sells directly to a gray market reseller for maybe cash under the table in excess of retail.

In case of myself I will cite two examples that one could say I payed the price for the desired model by spending on other models but in my case that really was not the case. My first purchase was a ref 5227 from my AD. I wanted that watch. After a year of ownership of the 5227, sold my Royal Oak Ref 15450 (piece of crap but that is a story for another thread), and wanted another luxury sport watch. Expressed my desire for a 5711 and they contacted me in 6 months. In fact it was easier to get that watch from my AD then some Rolex sport models. Same with the FPJ boutique. For years I lusted after the CS as it was to me such a work of art. After owning it for a year and a half inquired about a CS Bleu. They contacted me within the year with a CS Bleu.

I am not a high roller as their are customers who spend way more than I. I have had a decade relationship with my AD and I suspect that helped a lot.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Do this and the entire house of cards crumbles. Don’t get me wrong it’d be great if you want a SS model, but in short order demand would fall as the market value crumbles. And there would be a bloodbath for the Complications.

Yeah, while it's not a perfect analogy, look at the thread regarding the re-release of the Blancpain Mil-Spec from Hodinkee. You take a watch that was sold to true fans of the timepiece as a limited edition, then essentially release another similar piece a few years later. So they've doubled or tripled the supply of something desirable in the end. People who bought into it at least in part because of rarity are furious. Part of buying a Nautilus is that you're special because not everybody can have one, and it's a great watch with a ton of history. Patek has set the rules of the game and can't go changing them now. To alienate the folks who get these little treats while buying grand complications would be utter disaster.

That said, I'm not sure why they aren't expanding their catalogue a bit to increase the size of their ownership base. They had an opportunity with the 5522a and 6007a to release 3-handers with more casual styling that were more accessible and appealing for people new to the brand. Then then made barely enough to dole out to existing customers

[macrowatch]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

Thierry should NOT optimise his business for the fashion-victim, premium-seekers dying for sports models to show off with on Instagram. It would be optimising the business for a FAD.
PP has prospered in the past because of its resolute conservatism based around building the finest watches in the world for it's cognoscenti collectors. And these guys are the ones that REALLY spend and keep the business afloat year-in and year-out.

The Rolex Daytona refugees, and those of you that consider a watch with a strap to be "outdated" or "a dress watch" are exactly the type the customers that will flee the moment the premiums evaporate, or your favourite "celeb" is seen wearing a different brand...

So to build the business around your needs will mean Thierry will have a one-trick-pony brand like AP.

The vast majority of the "new customers" clamouring for Patek are ones Thierry doesn't want. They don't want a Patek. They want the zeitgeist.

Ha, I love that phrase, Daytona refugees.

[ragsk]

A combination of Covid lockdowns and the likes of Rolex, Patek etc clamping down on dealers who sell to flippers etc is really having a major impact by concentrating ownership of hard to get pieces in the hands of the few.

1. Sales agents are much more reluctant to sell to unknown people. Why take the risk? If they sell to someone they have known for years, that way they please their loyal customers but also rather critically they carry less risk of the watch being flipped and it coming back to bite them.

2. Some ADs are now requiring their sales agents to get head office approval before allocating a watch to a customer. Customers are effectively being "approved" for a watch by HQ. Again like point 1. above, the chance of a new customer being approved are much less than an existing one. Why would they take the risk of incurring the wrath of PP, Rolex etc if the watch is found on the grey market a few days later?

So the impact of watch manufacturers clamping down on ADs and asking them deal with and identify flippers better is having a negative impact on the ability of new/young customers etc to get watches. I am sure of it and I have heard it directly from an AD I know (not Patek).

3. Covid lockdowns haven't helped either. A number of ADs in the UK furloughed or even exited excess staff. So the staff that are left are each getting on average more watches flowing through their hands (assuming supply levels have normalised). So if you are lucky enough that your SA has survived then its human nature for that SA to favour you in terms of watch allocations over the customers that were covered by the SA that is no longer with the company.

[chiscott_29]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

Thierry should NOT optimise his business for the fashion-victim, premium-seekers dying for sports models to show off with on Instagram. It would be optimising the business for a FAD.
PP has prospered in the past because of its resolute conservatism based around building the finest watches in the world for it's cognoscenti collectors. And these guys are the ones that REALLY spend and keep the business afloat year-in and year-out.

The Rolex Daytona refugees, and those of you that consider a watch with a strap to be "outdated" or "a dress watch" are exactly the type the customers that will flee the moment the premiums evaporate, or your favourite "celeb" is seen wearing a different brand...

So to build the business around your needs will mean Thierry will have a one-trick-pony brand like AP.

The vast majority of the "new customers" clamouring for Patek are ones Thierry doesn't want. They don't want a Patek. They want the zeitgeist.

Sorry to be direct here, but the tone of your response is awful and totally misinformed. I'm so genuinely sick of these types of arguments that "new collectors" only want things for Instagram or whatever and that it is a "fad". Give me a break. Most people on this forum do the EXACT SAME THING that you seem to rail about. In fact, worse so than most real so-called influencers.

There's this "club" out there that thinks just because somebody likes the Nautilus or Aquanaut...Well all be damned they must not be allowed in the exclusive Patek kingdom!!! Strike them down how dare they only care about watches that people actually WANT to wear or that are actually aligned with most lifestyles people actually lead?? What's that - You don't want a completely overpriced Complication piece that in most cases looks like a relic from 1865? Get lost, sir!!!

I'm sorry about my tone, but this really rubs me the wrong way. The market has changed. More so now than it ever has in the history of horology. Watch collecting is on the precipice of going mainstream way beyond where it has ever been. Nobody knows how it will play out, and there will be booms and busts. But what I'm certain about is we're not going back to the way things were.

[Mr. Miami]

I agree with the post above. but I would like to add that this a viscous cycle that only ends if the famous/social media people and frenzy cool down. otherwise premium will be up PP & Rolex clapping down on ADs who sell to flippers and only VIP getting Sports watches.

[Murcielagoboy2]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Sorry to be direct here, but the tone of your response is awful and totally misinformed. I'm so genuinely sick of these types of arguments that "new collectors" only want things for Instagram or whatever and that it is a "fad". Give me a break. Most people on this forum do the EXACT SAME THING that you seem to rail about. In fact, worse so than most real so-called influencers.

There's this "club" out there that thinks just because somebody likes the Nautilus or Aquanaut...Well all be damned they must not be allowed in the exclusive Patek kingdom!!! Strike them down how dare they only care about watches that people actually WANT to wear or that are actually aligned with most lifestyles people actually lead?? What's that - You don't want a completely overpriced Complication piece that in most cases looks like a relic from 1865? Get lost, sir!!!

I'm sorry about my tone, but this really rubs me the wrong way. The market has changed. More so now than it ever has in the history of horology. Watch collecting is on the precipice of going mainstream way beyond where it has ever been. Nobody knows how it will play out, and there will be booms and busts. But what I'm certain about is we're not going back to the way things were.

Despite disagreeing with you entirely, I appreciate the moderate tone of your post - you're a Gent. However, you're a Gent that's wrong.

You cannot deny the correlation between 'demand for the most overt, showy and flashy pieces from "the worlds most prestigious watchmaker" AND societies incessant current need to signal status. You talk about people's lifestyles, and you're right - today, people's lifestyles are about showing off...

We go through cycles of this;

A Gold Submariner was painfully trendy in the late 80's. It was an egregious fashion (and societal) faux-pas in the 90's. Same as the Ferrari Testarossa, same as shoulder pads and red braces.

The vast majority of the guys that want Nautilus and Aquanaut today, are not interested in horological quality. They're not enthusiasts.
a) like I said before, they're chasing the latest way to signal status,
and
b) they're chasing the easy money premium.

Kill the premium, and you kill the status, and these guys are GONE.

Expanding production, devaluing the Patek brand, and handing these guys allocation of sports watches instead of selling to collectors that have bought many pieces and who will continue to buy pieces (long after the "Miami Lambo Crew" have defaulted on their credit cards) would be commercial suicide for Patek.

This sounds arrogant, but it's fact.
I mean suddenly wearing a bracelet as part of your watch is "more practical" than a strap? Come off it! I don't buy it. A bracelet was a type of jewellery better suited to women's watches in years gone by...
Suddenly everyone is more "sporty" - nah - if anything people spend more time in front of computers today.
Suddenly everyone appreciates the Nautilus aesthetic? What? A watch designed in 1970's - which still looks like a watch from the 1970's? Don't make me laugh. THIS is the real relic!


Nope......
....the reason Patek is overwhelmed with demand for sports models is because the King status of the brand has reached the masses - They've seen Mark Walhberg, some rapper, some NBA player, some soccer player wearing one (on social media of course) and now they want one too....
But above all they want Patek's which are designed such that they clearly show others, that they have a Patek.

Hahaha! These guys would choose a 5711 over a Minute Repeater.
And that's why the AD's tell them to GET LOST when they receive their 50th enquiry of the day for an Aquanaut or a Nauti......... zzzzzzzz :yawn:

[Bensrolex]

this is all fascinating from a branding/marketing perspective, and one of the reasons as a new collector I do not intend to buy any new watch from an AD. I prefer vintage styles anyway, and I am happy to buy from reputable aftermarket sources. (I just bought my first Patek at Sotheby's and posted that for those interested. I shudder to think what a dealer would have charged me.)

[chiscott_29]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

Despite disagreeing with you entirely, I appreciate the moderate tone of your post - you're a Gent. However, you're a Gent that's wrong.

You cannot deny the correlation between 'demand for the most overt, showy and flashy pieces from "the worlds most prestigious watchmaker" AND societies incessant current need to signal status. You talk about people's lifestyles, and you're right - today, people's lifestyles are about showing off...

We go through cycles of this;

A Gold Submariner was painfully trendy in the late 80's. It was an egregious fashion (and societal) faux-pas in the 90's. Same as the Ferrari Testarossa, same as shoulder pads and red braces.

The vast majority of the guys that want Nautilus and Aquanaut today, are not interested in horological quality. They're not enthusiasts.
a) like I said before, they're chasing the latest way to signal status,
and
b) they're chasing the easy money premium.

Kill the premium, and you kill the status, and these guys are GONE.

Expanding production, devaluing the Patek brand, and handing these guys allocation of sports watches instead of selling to collectors that have bought many pieces and who will continue to buy pieces (long after the "Miami Lambo Crew" have defaulted on their credit cards) would be commercial suicide for Patek.

This sounds arrogant, but it's fact.
I mean suddenly wearing a bracelet as part of your watch is "more practical" than a strap? Come off it! I don't buy it. A bracelet was a type of jewellery better suited to women's watches in years gone by...
Suddenly everyone is more "sporty" - nah - if anything people spend more time in front of computers today.
Suddenly everyone appreciates the Nautilus aesthetic? What? A watch designed in 1970's - which still looks like a watch from the 1970's? Don't make me laugh. THIS is the real relic!


Nope......
....the reason Patek is overwhelmed with demand for sports models is because the King status of the brand has reached the masses - They've seen Mark Walhberg, some rapper, some NBA player, some soccer player wearing one (on social media of course) and now they want one too....
But above all they want Patek's which are designed such that they clearly show others, that they have a Patek.

Hahaha! These guys would choose a 5711 over a Minute Repeater.
And that's why the AD's tell them to GET LOST when they receive their 50th enquiry of the day for an Aquanaut or a Nauti......... zzzzzzzz :yawn:

Let's just agree to disagree. I refuse to engage further with somebody that insinuates that what they collect or how they collect or why they collect is inherently better than somebody else's way.

As far as I am concerned, the rapper that made it big and buys every hot piece simply to show off is as good for the watch community as some historian that is convinced they're preserving the history of a fabled watch company.

[fsprow]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Let's just agree to disagree. I refuse to engage further with somebody that insinuates that what they collect or how they collect or why they collect is inherently better than somebody else's way.

As far as I am concerned, the rapper that made it big and buys every hot piece simply to show off is as good for the watch community as some historian that is convinced they're preserving the history of a fabled watch company.

++++++++++

[nycpassat]

+1000% couldn’t have agreed more!

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

Thierry should NOT optimise his business for the fashion-victim, premium-seekers dying for sports models to show off with on Instagram. It would be optimising the business for a FAD.
PP has prospered in the past because of its resolute conservatism based around building the finest watches in the world for it's cognoscenti collectors. And these guys are the ones that REALLY spend and keep the business afloat year-in and year-out.

The Rolex Daytona refugees, and those of you that consider a watch with a strap to be "outdated" or "a dress watch" are exactly the type the customers that will flee the moment the premiums evaporate, or your favourite "celeb" is seen wearing a different brand...

So to build the business around your needs will mean Thierry will have a one-trick-pony brand like AP.

The vast majority of the "new customers" clamouring for Patek are ones Thierry doesn't want. They don't want a Patek. They want the zeitgeist.

[ganiccus]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Sorry to be direct here, but the tone of your response is awful and totally misinformed. I'm so genuinely sick of these types of arguments that "new collectors" only want things for Instagram or whatever and that it is a "fad". Give me a break. Most people on this forum do the EXACT SAME THING that you seem to rail about. In fact, worse so than most real so-called influencers.

There's this "club" out there that thinks just because somebody likes the Nautilus or Aquanaut...Well all be damned they must not be allowed in the exclusive Patek kingdom!!! Strike them down how dare they only care about watches that people actually WANT to wear or that are actually aligned with most lifestyles people actually lead?? What's that - You don't want a completely overpriced Complication piece that in most cases looks like a relic from 1865? Get lost, sir!!!

I'm sorry about my tone, but this really rubs me the wrong way. The market has changed. More so now than it ever has in the history of horology. Watch collecting is on the precipice of going mainstream way beyond where it has ever been. Nobody knows how it will play out, and there will be booms and busts. But what I'm certain about is we're not going back to the way things were.

Agree with you there, the level of elitism and delusion coming out of some of these posters is beyond ridiculous. For example, to the guy who said Patek should not turn into an AP, I mean, do you realize that they are just killing it right now? They keep opening new boutiques and they sell most of their stock in a matter of days, while Patek ADs have most the same old stuff sitting in their shelves for ages. My AD has received a pair of 5524r/7324r last spring and they are still there collecting dust. When a modern-sized dress watch with an interesting GMT complication, at a reasonable price, can't even sell itself in a proper timeframe, I think watch collectors are in their right to question the brand marketing strategy, the products in their lineup and how many of them they produce. For all the praise Thierry Stern gives to Rolex and their success in the watch community, he sure as hell seems to do the complete opposite when it comes to his company. I'm not saying he should fully turn the tap on the Nautilus and Aquanaut and stop making calatravas but he should at least give a bone to chew on for the next generation or they are just going to turn to other high-end houses like AP, FP Journe, ALS, even some of the independants that are on the rise.

[soxfan39]

Would be great if enough sport watches were made so each AD could strategically choose 1-2 new customers (non flippers, true collectors, long term upgrade potential buyers) per month that they could bring into the Patek family while also having enough inventory to reward big spenders. It's a real fine line. Very tough spot for each AD to be in. But a very enviable position versus having too much supply and weak demand.

[Mr. Miami]

Originally Posted by chiscott_29

Let's just agree to disagree. I refuse to engage further with somebody that insinuates that what they collect or how they collect or why they collect is inherently better than somebody else's way.

As far as I am concerned, the rapper that made it big and buys every hot piece simply to show off is as good for the watch community as some historian that is convinced they're preserving the history of a fabled watch company.

100% agree