Electric cars....sooner than you think?

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Autos still only contribute about 5% to global CO2 emissions, (depending who you quote).

Which is exactly why this push towards electric cars is silly. Especially when you consider the reasons for it. They claim to save the environment. The irony is building and disposing of electric cars as well as charging them takes a higher toll on the environment then fossil fuel cars. But then again the people forcing this down our throats aren’t really looking for results because the results don’t matter to these people only intentions. Intentions are all the new fad.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Which is exactly why this push towards electric cars is silly. Especially when you consider the reasons for it. They claim to save the environment. The irony is building and disposing of electric cars as well as charging them takes a higher toll on the environment then fossil fuel cars. But then again the people forcing this down our throats aren’t really looking for results because the results don’t matter to these people only intentions. Intentions are all the new fad.

True, given the current electrical grid. The advantage with electrical comes with more point source generation. Unfortunately, I do not have a refinery in my back yard in Colorado like I did in Houston.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by Patton250

They claim to save the environment. The irony is building and disposing of electric cars as well as charging them takes a higher toll on the environment then fossil fuel cars.

Do you have any reliable source to back this up?

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Do you have any reliable source to back this up?

Of course. However would it really make a difference to those who have bought into this fallacy? No. So why ask? The info is there abundantly.

[sgarrity]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Of course. However would it really make a difference to those who have bought into this fallacy? No. So why ask? The info is there abundantly.

You make wild, outlandish claims that fly in the face of common knowledge and then claim people that don’t believe said claims can’t handle the truth. Seems reasonable….

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by sgarrity

You make wild, outlandish claims that fly in the face of common knowledge and then claim people that don’t believe said claims can’t handle the truth. Seems reasonable….

Outstanding job proving my point. Well done.

Attempting to shame people doesn’t make your side right. It just makes it mean.

Attack and distract. It does work but only for a time.

[texasmade]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I am not sure about this. It would take some research but I would guess they are lighter. My first car was a 1972 Ford LTD, the thing was a tank. There was steel everywhere, I specifically remember the doors being so heavy to open and close and when you did close them it sounded like a dungeon hatch being shut. Fast forward to today, my Ford Fusion Hybrid has plastic (and aluminum) EVERYWHERE. Of course I have the hybrid battery that adds weight but take the regular Fusion, I can’t believe when you compare it to cars of the 70s it actually weighs more.

I'm talking about 1990's/early 2000's cars to today. 1970's everything was still using steel getting and gas mileage was crap.

I just picked 2 cars that were in production in the 1970's and 80's and today for a comparison.

Dodge Charger
1970- 3225 lbs
1985- 2456 lbs
2010- 3727 to 4160 lbs
2021- 3964 lbs up to just over 4586lbs

Toyota Camry
1975 (called Camry Celica)- 2161 to 2337 lbs
1985- 2180 to 2490 lbs
1995- 2932 lbs
2021- 3310 to 3595 lbs


Also here's a link for a Ford Mustang from inception through 2018. From the first gen to the second gen the weight declined quite a bit but has slowly been inching it's weight back up to the latest model shown at over 3900lbs.
https://www.cjponyparts.com/resource...g-curb-weights

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Of course. However would it really make a difference to those who have bought into this fallacy? No. So why ask? The info is there abundantly.

Sounds to me like a lot of noise just to distract from the fact that you are not able to back this up.

[Tools]

https://www.wardsauto.com/ideaxchang...-downside-bevs

[bondtoys]

From Tool‘s article ( from 2017, so 4 years ago!!)

>>Environmentalists argue that over its lifetime, an EV will make up that difference and come out cleaner than an ICE car. That’s generally true. But it also depends on the source of electricity. In regions where electricity is generated with fossil fuels it may never make up that difference.<<

Well, producing the electric energy to charge BEVs by burning oil is certainly not the way it should be done and will be done.
Additionally, the environmental damage & pollution caused by oil production has never been encountered ( fracking, refining, transport, storing) into those models

Plus the example 68%-100% additional carbon footprint for BEVs does not consider future improvements in technology and production and a lot has improved already in the passed 4 years.
We are just at the beginning of it.

As for additional Carbon footprint:
>>An electric car’s higher manufacturing-phase emissions would be paid back in 2 years of driving with European average grid electricity compared to a typical vehicle. This emissions recovery period is no more than 3 years even in countries with relatively higher-carbon electricity such as in Germany<<

Source from 2018:
https://theicct.org/sites/default/fi...9022018_vF.pdf

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Sounds to me like a lot of noise just to distract from the fact that you are not able to back this up.

Once again a distraction. So if I copy and paste 10 or 20 links to articles that say things you don’t believe in that’s going to change your mind? Of course not. Do you know how I know your side is not serious about these things? The ultimate proof is in this. If you really were serious about cutting back greenhouse emissions every one of you on your side that was actually passionate about it would be parked outside the capitals of China and India insisting they do something. After all they are responsible for the vast majority of greenhouse gases. But you don’t. Your side pays lip service to them and completely ignores the fact that Europe and the United States pollute the least. Yet it is in fact Europe and the United States who are paying most of the taxes and having the most new rules implemented about upon them. All a distraction.

Listen I have absolutely no problem with electric vehicles. Some of them are actually quite cool. What I have a problem is that some governments are giving them special treatment with tax cuts over fossil fuel car manufacturers and worse than that these very same governments are forcing these electric cars on the people instead of allowing capitalism to lead the way. If these electric cars are so great why are you afraid of capitalism directing the course? I can answer that for you. Because it’s not about greenhouse gases. It never was.

[chadwick4eva]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Of course. However would it really make a difference to those who have bought into this fallacy? No. So why ask? The info is there abundantly.

Not sure why you seem to be so upset about this issue, or what "fallacy" you are referring to or where you are getting fed this information (I'm guessing it's getting peddled to you on facebook or other social media). I'm not really one for conspiracy theories or anything like that. At this point there is is really no question our planet is warming and that warming is in turn causing drastic climate change. Wildfires last year on the west coast were terrible, and they will likely be worse this year given how dry it has been already this spring. Hurricane seasons in the south are getting more and more severe as the years go by. Average temps where I live have risen noticeably within my lifetime. As a species, we are now at a critical inflection point where we are either going to continue down this path and continue destroying the natural world, generating more and more emissions, extracting natural resources, or try to build a more sustainable future for our children and the generations ahead of us. I'd encourage you to look at historical climate data if you believe this is all some big "hoax" pushed by individuals with some agenda. Read peer reviewed journals like Science, Nature, and other journals with high impact factors and hopefully you will learn a thing or two. The data speaks for itself.

It's pretty simple- if we can push the energy grid more towards renewable sources of energy, and also make the majority of the tools we use run on renewables (e.g. cars), then we can hopefully slow this trend. In the grand scheme of things, it is incredible how much of this planet has been destroyed by humans in such a short amount of time- it only really took a couple hundred years for us to really screw things up.

My next car will be an EV, and my next home will have solar panels with a backup generator that likely runs on gas just in case of a hardware issue. Not only will this reduce my overall carbon footprint but it will definitely be a solid investment and cost me less in the long run in monthly utility/gas bills.

I've seen a lot of hostility on this forum bashing the "green energy hoax," oftentimes with no legitimate data or scientific basis to back up those arguments. I oftentimes feel like these people work for oil and gas companies- always was a fan of that Upton Sinclair quote that aptly describes the situation:

"It is hard to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it."

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by chadwick4eva

Not sure why you seem to be so upset about this issue, or what "fallacy" you are referring to or where you are getting fed this information (I'm guessing it's getting peddled to you on facebook or other social media). I'm not really one for conspiracy theories or anything like that. At this point there is is really no question our planet is warming and that warming is in turn causing drastic climate change. Wildfires last year on the west coast were terrible, and they will likely be worse this year given how dry it has been already this spring. Hurricane seasons in the south are getting more and more severe as the years go by. Average temps where I live have risen noticeably within my lifetime. As a species, we are now at a critical inflection point where we are either going to continue down this path and continue destroying the natural world, generating more and more emissions, extracting natural resources, or try to build a more sustainable future for our children and the generations ahead of us. I'd encourage you to look at historical climate data if you believe this is all some big "hoax" pushed by individuals with some agenda. Read peer reviewed journals like Science, Nature, and other journals with high impact factors and hopefully you will learn a thing or two. The data speaks for itself.

It's pretty simple- if we can push the energy grid more towards renewable sources of energy, and also make the majority of the tools we use run on renewables (e.g. cars), then we can hopefully slow this trend. In the grand scheme of things, it is incredible how much of this planet has been destroyed by humans in such a short amount of time- it only really took a couple hundred years for us to really screw things up.

My next car will be an EV, and my next home will have solar panels with a backup generator that likely runs on gas just in case of a hardware issue.

With all due respect please spare me the lecture. I disagree with you wholeheartedly and I’m represented by at least half the world. Probably more if everyone was honest. I can accuse you of fallen victim to propaganda as well. So the subject is electric vehicles becoming the norm. I agree with the OP on this and all I’m saying it’s a shame that that is happening especially the way it is happening. Regardless of whether you believe it’s necessary to switch to electric there’s no way you can disagree with me that it’s being forced upon us by governments. I’ll end it at that.

[bondtoys]

@ Patton,

just look up whataboutism.
Instead of fingerpointing on others (China and larger CO emmittors than traffic), why are you asking yourself how you can reduce YOUR individual CO footprint?

Just continue like we've done in the last 100 years does not seem to be a good strategy to me.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by Patton250

What I have a problem is that some governments are giving them special treatment with tax cuts over fossil fuel car manufacturers and worse than that these very same governments are forcing these electric cars on the people instead of allowing capitalism to lead the way. If these electric cars are so great why are you afraid of capitalism directing the course? I can answer that for you. Because it’s not about greenhouse gases. It never was.

Interesting!

- So the fossil industry has not received special treatments and incentives in the last 100 or so years?
- I am surprised to hear that consumers in the US are forced to buying BEVs - but I never stop learning.

- As for your last argument: BEVs are a relatively new technology and are produced in relative small numbers. Those subsidies are mainly to get things started and cover some of the initial investments that are necessary now.
I have no doubt, that BEVs produced at the same scale like ICE vehicles today are competitive and we will get to there - sooner that you think.
Just have a look how much a BEV costed 10 years ago and what they cost now.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Interesting!

- So the fossil industry has not received special treatments and incentives in the last 100 or so years?
- I am surprised to hear that consumers in the US are forced to buying BEVs - but I never stop learning.

- As for your last argument: BEVs are a relatively new technology and are produced in relative small numbers. Those subsidies are mainly to get things started and cover some of the initial investments that are necessary now.
I have no doubt, that BEVs produced at the same scale like ICE vehicles today are competitive and we will get to there - sooner that you think.
Just have a look how much a BEV costed 10 years ago and what they cost now.

Well Tesla would’ve never made it without the US government. That’s a fact. Even Elon Musk will tell you that.

Is it too much to ask to just let capitalism take it’s course? Are you open to that? If you want an electric vehicle buy one. Nothing wrong with that. But if I want a 700 hp V8 gas powered motor I should be able to get one also. Unfortunately in the next couple of years including from BMW, Audi and Mercedes Benz you won’t be able to. It’s very depressing. I’m going to go ahead and make a prediction. In the next 10 years when all these vehicles are switched over to electric I’ll bet my entire retirement that the same people complaining about greenhouse gases caused by fossil fuel vehicles will be even more outspoken and they will claim absolutely nothing has changed. Mark my words.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

@ Patton,

just look up whataboutism.
Instead of fingerpointing on others (China and larger CO emmittors than traffic), why are you asking yourself how you can reduce YOUR individual CO footprint?

Just continue like we've done in the last 100 years does not seem to be a good strategy to me.

I can answer that. Because I don’t care. Not even a little bit. I don’t believe in it and I don’t care. I’m just merely pointing out the hypocrisy of some of these governments that claim to be doing good. It would be like 10 houses in a neighborhood and two houses dump their garbage every day onto the street but the HOA is harassing me for the toothpick that fell out from behind my ear onto my own lawn.

[bondtoys]

Capitalism will always go the cheapest way (that's what they keep them competitive) - which means the largest burden on nature (capitalist produces as cheap as possible while the impact on nature is paid by society).
That's exactly how it happens in China and India and many other countries like you correctly point out - and in the US and in Europe!

That's why we need regulations and aids for environmentally friendlier solutions.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by Patton250

But if I want a 700 hp V8 gas powered motor I should be able to get one also. Unfortunately in the next couple of years including from BMW, Audi and Mercedes Benz you won’t be able to. It’s very depressing.

Depressing is, that they thought for the last decade that they could continue producing those cars. They are far behind Tesla, they realized (too late) the turn of tide and decided that they need to adjust their business strategy.
If you ask any random CEO of those manufacturer, he will tell you in hindsight they should have moved sooner and faster to BEVs
Not that depressing in my eyes

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by Patton250

It would be like 10 houses in a neighborhood and two houses dump their garbage every day onto the street but the HOA is harassing me for the toothpick that fell out from behind my ear onto my own lawn.

Your analogy is a bit flawed.
You would be one of those, who dumped their waste on the street everyday - anyhow.....

Even if 8/10 of my neighbors would dump their waste on the street, I wouldn't do it - but you and me obviously have different opinions about that.

[logo]

When GM announced an 830hp, 9000lb Hummer that does 300 miles per charge and a 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, for me that was the end of ICE. The symbolism of change is just glorious. And now I’m on a waiting list for a Hummer.

[sgarrity]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Well Tesla would’ve never made it without the US government. That’s a fact. Even Elon Musk will tell you that.

Is it too much to ask to just let capitalism take it’s course? Are you open to that?……...

Because the US government has never done anything to prop up the oil industry……

[SearChart]

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

Depressing is, that they thought for the last decade that they could continue producing those cars. They are far behind Tesla, they realized (too late) the turn of tide and decided that they need to adjust their business strategy.
If you ask any random CEO of those manufacturer, he will tell you in hindsight they should have moved sooner and faster to BEVs
Not that depressing in my eyes

They could keep producing those cars if your government didn’t tell them they couldn’t. That’s the truth. Also comparing them to Tesla isn’t fair because my government gave massive subsidies to Tesla. Massive. By the way did I tell you they were massive? Massive. Tesla has barely made it over these years and they absolutely would’ve never made it without the massive subsidies given to them by my government.

Edit- PS-I like Tesla and Elon Musk by the way.

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by Patton250

They could keep producing those cars if your government didn’t tell them they couldn’t.

"My government" did not tell them that they couldn't.
"My government" told them that they must meet stricter rules and guidelines in order to stop the pollution of our air!

And that's what most governments do now because we must stop to continue polluting mother Earth!
And that only can be done by regulations - because polluting nature was always cheaper for companies when the burden of that pollution was shouldered by society!

The carmakers just realized (far too late) that their business models of producing ICE cars is not the future and adapted accordingly. That's what capitalists do when the rules are changing.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

"My government" did not tell them that they couldn't.
"My government" told them that they must meet stricter rules and guidelines in order to stop the pollution of our air!

And that's what most governments do now.

The carmakers just realized (far too late) that their business models of producing ICE cars is not the future and adapted accordingly. That's what capitalists do when the rules are changing.

OK so you agree with me then. Your government told them. By the way Germany along with the United States are two of the least produces a pollution in the world. All this long before electric cars are forced on us by our governments. I wish you would take that passion that you obviously have in you to China and India where it’s needed. I think we’ve pretty much exhausted this conversation.

[GB-man]

I love tacos and beer

[GB-man]

As purview of the American mind I believe in climate change yet I seriously entertained buying a Ram TRX for kicks the other day. I don’t know what to say.

[ras47]

Originally Posted by Blansky

And too much sapping of precious bodily fluids....

<see my post on the next page>

[Cheap_Shot]

I think this video, from one of YouTube's largest car channels, lays out some of the environmental costs (and benefits) of EVs. For those of you debating, it's probably worth 10 minutes of your time.

Disclaimer: I don't own a car and haven't in over a decade. I just like looking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G67i_Z8ukD4