32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[CharlesN]

I had the same problem …..




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[Dirt]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Disagreement is good when it leads to useful discussion with an outcome.

I am delighted that this thread has helped you make a decision. It goes to show and prove that this thread is valuable to all manner of people.

I'm not convinced the thread is necessarily valuable right across the board.

Just one simple question though.
What outcome do you expect?

I ask because I believe i may have different expectations

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Just one simple question though.
What outcome do you expect?

I don’t expect anything at all except to increase my knowledge and understanding of exactly what I am seeing.
I am doing this by a careful, thought out, and meticulous series of tests and observations.
Then those observations have to be analysed.
Doing things this way gives me enjoyment and stretches my mind which is a great aid to avoiding being stupid.

[CharlesN]

There is of course one other effect …..
I have met, Online in this forum some people who are happy to communicate on the subject in a normal manner. We collect data, share data and analyse the data.

These people I am delighted to say have become friends, albeit on line as the Current virus situation has prevented travel otherwise we would have met by now.

Others who choose to attempt to ruin the discussion are just wastrels.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I am doing this by a careful, thought out, and meticulous series of tests and observations.
Then those observations have to be analysed.

[CharlesN]

I could not analyse all the data alone.
There are complexities that I need help with to understand.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I could not analyse all the data alone.
There are complexities that I need help with to understand.

Don't search for your glasses.
You may think you have double vision.
But, you haven't.

More to come soon, stay tuned ...

[CharlesN]

I wonder if instead of my glasses I need a 19th century Stereoscope …




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[padi56]

[Andad]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I wonder if instead of my glasses I need a 19th century Stereoscope …




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You have been warned Charles.

Stop enjoying yourself on TRF.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Andad

Stop enjoying yourself on TRF.

Im sorry,

I will start to write some lines as a punishment .....

Although ... I have just gone through 4228 lines of code all to do with these observations.

[t65tampa]

My SD43 has been running about -2 seconds a day since I bought it new about 2 years ago. Pretty impressively consistent, actually. In the last month, rates have slowed to -10 to -15 seconds a day. I've got plenty of warranty with it, so I'll likely drop it off at my local AD to have it sent to to the RSC for service.

I've only had this happen to me two other times in the past 20 years (notice timekeeping or power reserve drop off significantly for no reason) and that was with an Explorer II 42 mm and a BLNR, both with 31XX series movements. They were both serviced by an RSC under warranty and came back working beautifully and remained accurate.

[saxo3]

First Rolex Amplitude Breakdown Study - An Experimentalist View

There is a new effect observed on the 3235 movements, I named it 'Amplitude Breakdown'.

- Amplitude breakdowns appear 6 times during a 72 power-reserve test.
- Two happen every day: first always around midnight, then always 6 hours later.
- Breakdowns happen regardless of watch being under test conditions or worn.
- Amplitude breakdowns are VERY reproducible, they always occur.
- They recover on their own.

Studied watches:
- Sea-Dweller 126600, Oct. 2017 (saxo3)
- Submariner 126610, Sept. 2020 (Charles)
- Both 3235 caliber, date model
- Position dial up

Data taking:
- Independent tests at two different locations
- Synchronized start (saxo3/Charles) at 22:00:00 local time
- Data points taken: every 60 seconds = 4320 data points in 72 hours
- Duration: entire power reserve
- Start time for all graphs is 22:00:00


Figure 1 displays the full period of 72 hours



Figure 2 displays the period of 0 – 24 hours



Figure 3 displays the period of 24 – 48 hours



Figure 4 displays period of 48 – 72 hours

After about 66 to 68 hours we observe that the 3235 amplitudes become very irratic.
As a consequence, the timegrapher stops data recording but the watches continued to run.

- The Sea-Dweller stopped after 71:58:08 hours (259.088 sec)
- The Submariner stopped after 71:59:55 hours (259.195 sec)

Conclusion:

We suspect that the amplitude breakdown, which always occurs at 23:00 – 01:00 hours is strongly correlated with the date change mechanism engaging. The second amplitude breakdown, which always happens about 6 hours later, is so far unexplained.

Sincere acknowledgements to Charles for becoming a new friend and always following me within an outstanding collaboration.

The measurements we are doing is nothing else than pure watch curiosity, the results are hopefully interesting for at least a few TRF members.

[3HandsNoDate]

This could explain why we haven't seen many reported issues with the 3230? Granted we have a smaller sample size with that movement thus far...

Originally Posted by saxo3

First Rolex Amplitude Breakdown Study - An Experimentalist View

There is a new effect observed on the 3235 movements, I named it 'Amplitude Breakdown'.

- Amplitude breakdowns appear 6 times during a 72 power-reserve test.
- Two happen every day: first always around midnight, then always 6 hours later.
- Breakdowns happen regardless of watch being under test conditions or worn.
- Amplitude breakdowns are VERY reproducible, they always occur.
- They recover on their own.

Studied watches:
- Sea-Dweller 126600, Oct. 2017 (saxo3)
- Submariner 126610, Sept. 2020 (Charles)
- Both 3235 caliber, date model
- Position dial up

Data taking:
- Independent tests at two different locations
- Synchronized start (saxo3/Charles) at 22:00:00 local time
- Data points taken: every 60 seconds = 4320 data points in 72 hours
- Duration: entire power reserve
- Start time for all graphs is 22:00:00


Figure 1 displays the full period of 72 hours



Figure 2 displays the period of 0 – 24 hours



Figure 3 displays the period of 24 – 48 hours



Figure 4 displays period of 48 – 72 hours

After about 66 to 68 hours we observe that the 3235 amplitudes become very irratic.
As a consequence, the timegrapher stops data recording but the watches continued to run.

- The Sea-Dweller stopped after 71:58:08 hours (259.088 sec)
- The Submariner stopped after 71:59:55 hours (259.195 sec)

Conclusion:

We suspect that the amplitude breakdown, which always occurs at 23:00 – 01:00 hours is strongly correlated with the date change mechanism engaging. The second amplitude breakdown, which always happens about 6 hours later, is so far unexplained.

Sincere acknowledgements to Charles for becoming a new friend and always following me within an outstanding collaboration.

The measurements we are doing is nothing else than pure watch curiosity, the results are hopefully interesting for at least a few TRF members.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by 3HandsNoDate

This could explain why we haven't seen many reported issues with the 3230? Granted we have a smaller sample size with that movement thus far...

Indeed, the first idea was a comparison with a 3230 (no date) watch but we don't have one available.

Important to note, I have no indication that these 3235 amplitude breakdowns are linked to the reported 32xx issues. They appear systematically for two very well running watches.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by 3HandsNoDate

This could explain why we haven't seen many reported issues with the 3230? Granted we have a smaller sample size with that movement thus far...

I think 3230s are too new right now. I’ve promised to report back if I see any issues.

I’m two from two on the 3235s hopefully zero from zero on the 3230.

I think all movements with dates are affected like this in terms of the period of date change engagement.


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[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by amanbra

I think 3230s are too new right now. I’ve promised to report back if I see any issues.
I’m two from two on the 3235s hopefully zero from zero on the 3230.
I think all movements with dates are affected like this in terms of the period of date change engagement.

I doubt the 3230's will have the same breakdown at all. The breakdown are hard or almost impossible to see unless continually monitored thriough the two times that we have found. the First of the pair is almost certainly caused by the date being engaged, but the second of the pair is just a mystery so far.

The 31xx movements do NOT seem to have this same drop in amplitude (Breakdown) at all whilst changing the date or any other time. This does need to be researched more though.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I doubt the 3230's will have the same breakdown at all. The breakdown are hard or almost impossible to see unless continually monitored thriough the two times that we have found. the First of the pair is almost certainly caused by the date being engaged, but the second of the pair is just a mystery so far.

The 31xx movements do NOT have this same drop in amplitude (Breakdown) at all whilst changing the date or any other time.

Yeah I'd expect that the no date will not have the amp drop during 11pm-1am.

That's interesting on the 31XX, i did put my nomos tangomat on the time grapher around midnight once and noticed it was running slower for that period and the next morning it was back up to speed. For me it made sense that an additional mechanism did add resistance.

My daytona's amp and timings do change when Chrono is running vs not.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by amanbra

I think all movements with dates are affected like this in terms of the period of date change engagement.

All movements? Which one do you mean?

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by saxo3

All movements? Which one do you mean?

the BLM movement, the Feminist Movement, earthquake movement to name a few.

[Rashid.bk]

So I took my D-Blue into RSC today and they measured it's rate and said it's amplitude was strong and that it's running at an average rate of zero spd as measure in six positions. I asked for the report and they said nope, it's Rolex internal documentation but that I could take a look at it.
The service associate who was wearing a white Daytona, which looked amazing and was the first time seeing one in person said my options are leave as is, leave it with them for a couple weeks for the watch maker to actually wear(while at work) to get real world measurements and check it's rate day to day. Assumption being I may not be wearing it enough in a fashion to properly wind/stimulate the watch correctly and that maybe I'm not winding it enough or correctly.

Third option was they could simply do a rate adjustment of plus 2 spd, pressure test it and call it a day. I went for the third option. I'll start to use the watch tracker app today to see where it's at from here on in.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

So I took my D-Blue into RSC today and they measured it's rate and said it's amplitude was strong and that it's running at an average rate of zero spd as measure in six positions. I asked for the report and they said nope, it's Rolex internal documentation but that I could take a look at it.
The service associate who was wearing a white Daytona, which looked amazing and was the first time seeing one in person said my options are leave as is, leave it with them for a couple weeks for the watch maker to actually wear(while at work) to get real world measurements and check it's rate day to day. Assumption being I may not be wearing it enough in a fashion to properly wind/stimulate the watch correctly and that maybe I'm not winding it enough or correctly.

Third option was they could simply do a rate adjustment of plus 2 spd, pressure test it and call it a day. I went for the third option. I'll start to use the watch tracker app today to see where it's at from here on in.

Assuming they're not lying it's what I told you. I wrote above to you that you watched would likely be 0s/d when stationary and your movement is what is causing it to go -2 per day.

Generally stationary watches are faster with no bumps affecting the balance wheel.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by amanbra

the BLM movement, the Feminist Movement, earthquake movement to name a few.

Originally Posted by amanbra

Generally stationary watches are faster with no bumps affecting the balance wheel.

Interesting answer, never stop learning here

Originally Posted by CharlesN

The 31xx movements do NOT seem to have this same drop in amplitude (Breakdown) at all whilst changing the date or any other time. This does need to be researched more though.

Measurements are ongoing …
A bit too early for 32xx vs. 31xx conclusions about amplitude breakdowns

[rkim11]

Kept an eye on my DJ 41 over weekend for first time. Bought 6/2020 unworn from David SW and worn pretty regularly. Took off watch at 11pm fri night, watch ran for 70 hours and 25 mins although the last hour or so I wore it I was pretty sedentary. From 34 hour mark to 57 hour mark, watch gained 1 second. From 57 hour mark to 65 hour mark, watch lost 2 seconds. From 65 hour mark to 70 hour mark, watch lost 5 seconds. My unscientific study shows it is running great until about the last 10 hours of power reserve.

[saxo3]

First Rolex Amplitude Breakdown Study - An Experimentalist View (part 2)

What happens to the movement RATE?

Studied watches:
- Sea-Dweller 126600, Oct. 2017 (saxo3)
- Submariner 126610, Sept. 2020 (Charles)
- Both 3235 caliber, date model
- Position dial up

Data taking:
- Independent tests at two different locations
- Synchronized start (saxo3/Charles) at 22:00:00 local time
- Data points taken: every 60 seconds = 4320 data points in 72 hours
- Duration: entire power reserve
- Start time for all graphs is 22:00:00


Figure 1 displays the measured RATES during the full period of 72 hours


Figure 2 displays the measured AMPLITUDES (top) and the RATES (bottom) during the full period of 72 hours

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Interesting answer, never stop learning here

It's often a matter of gyroscopic forces acting on the balance with directional changes on it's axis.
Though in the past, I can attest that my 5 digit watches typically sped up considerably when they were subjected to rapid changes of attitude.
Neither of my DSSD's experience the same phenomenon.
I put this down to their weight dampening the motion sufficiently to mitigate the speeding up of the movement.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by rkim11

Kept an eye on my DJ 41 over weekend for first time. Bought 6/2020 unworn from David SW and worn pretty regularly. Took off watch at 11pm fri night, watch ran for 70 hours and 25 mins although the last hour or so I wore it I was pretty sedentary. From 34 hour mark to 57 hour mark, watch gained 1 second. From 57 hour mark to 65 hour mark, watch lost 2 seconds. From 65 hour mark to 70 hour mark, watch lost 5 seconds. My unscientific study shows it is running great until about the last 10 hours of power reserve.

Running very well your DJ41, no reason to worry.
The Watch Tracker app is a good tool to log timekeeping

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Assuming they're not lying it's what I told you. I wrote above to you that you watched would likely be 0s/d when stationary and your movement is what is causing it to go -2 per day.

Generally stationary watches are faster with no bumps affecting the balance wheel.

It’s exactly the opposite of what they told me at RSC, they said wearing the watch, proper winding and movement would help it run better not slower. That’s why one of their options was to leave it with them to in-house wear and test it.

[krounchou]

I just got back my DJ41 from full service. No mention of anything changed, only that it was fully serviced. Seems to run very fine now, less than 1sec / day deviation. I will follow-up

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

It’s exactly the opposite of what they told me at RSC, they said wearing the watch, proper winding and movement would help it run better not slower. That’s why one of their options was to leave it with them to in-house wear and test it.

Option to leave it with them (RSC) to in-house wear? What?