HELP! $35K nightmare w/ MB23 aka Michael Russo Rolex dealer

[Syed117]

Originally Posted by maciej

I have a feeling there's a bit more to this story, and in reality only he will know along with the buyer. As full disclosure I've purchased two Rolex's and two AP's from him and they were flawless transactions. Simultaneously at least a dozen of my friends have either bought or sold from him with excellent experiences as well. While online mobs are the new version of the public beating, and they most certainly haven't gone out of style, remember that you can't make blanket statements without knowing the facts. That same type of approach has put culture as a whole into quite a precarious situation worldwide.

Those are my two cents though, I've done business with Mike before and I'll gladly do business with him again, at the same token I generally don't trust any shipping outfit whatsoever for situations just like this.

That's fair, but the problem is that he could have come here and explained his side of the story. He didn't, he chose to be silent.

The only people that choose to completely ignore these types of situations are usually guilty.

If I sold watches and ever saw a thread like this one about me, I would be here immediately trying to resolve the situation. This has gone on for an unreasonable amount of time.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by walds11

His IG account is now marked as private. He must of caught on....but what do I know...OP, I hope you get all of your loot back. Please keep us posted.

He needs the exposure on IG so he'll put it back to normal within a couple of days.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by maciej

I have a feeling there's a bit more to this story, and in reality only he will know along with the buyer. As full disclosure I've purchased two Rolex's and two AP's from him and they were flawless transactions. Simultaneously at least a dozen of my friends have either bought or sold from him with excellent experiences as well. While online mobs are the new version of the public beating, and they most certainly haven't gone out of style, remember that you can't make blanket statements without knowing the facts. That same type of approach has put culture as a whole into quite a precarious situation worldwide.

Those are my two cents though, I've done business with Mike before and I'll gladly do business with him again, at the same token I generally don't trust any shipping outfit whatsoever for situations just like this.

Sorry but MB23 still logs into his TRF account and is undoubtedly aware of this thread. If he's capable of posting his new Patek acquisition he's perfectly capable of posting a rebuttal to some very serious accusations. For me his silence speaks volumes.

[cda555]

Originally Posted by maciej

I have a feeling there's a bit more to this story, and in reality only he will know along with the buyer. As full disclosure I've purchased two Rolex's and two AP's from him and they were flawless transactions. Simultaneously at least a dozen of my friends have either bought or sold from him with excellent experiences as well. While online mobs are the new version of the public beating, and they most certainly haven't gone out of style, remember that you can't make blanket statements without knowing the facts. That same type of approach has put culture as a whole into quite a precarious situation worldwide.



Those are my two cents though, I've done business with Mike before and I'll gladly do business with him again, at the same token I generally don't trust any shipping outfit whatsoever for situations just like this.

OP bought 5 watches from him in the past. Not exactly working in his favor at the moment. I get that there are two sides to a story, but Mike is obviously staying silent intentionally. That speaks volumes on its own.


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[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by Syed117

That's fair, but the problem is that he could have come here and explained his side of the story. He didn't, he chose to be silent.

The only people that choose to completely ignore these types of situations are usually guilty.

If I sold watches and ever saw a thread like this one about me, I would be here immediately trying to resolve the situation. This has gone on for an unreasonable amount of time.

And many of the big established watch dealers who sell here on the forum and have for many years have come forward to address issues that arose from customer transactions, whatever they have been. This is a big red flag to me also, he has been lurking here but no defence or explanation whatsoever.

[77T]

Situations like this one - and the most recent development of the seller now apparently pulling the wool over the OP’s eyes a second time - deserve an additional rule in TRF’s classifieds.

We have such a rule in Motorsports to be a general “catch-all” for bad actors on and off track. This is to protect our sport.

Here’s a sample for TRF:
“PARTICIPANT CONDUCT (that means sellers and buyers)
Each participant shall exhibit the highest standards of conduct and behavior. No actions shall prejudice the reputation of TRF or the activity of selling, buying and/or trading timepieces and collateral items. Failure to comply may result in immediate suspension of privileges in the Classifieds and/or other penalties until TRF determines a settlement has been consummated.”

I’m sure sellers also have horror stories about habitual buyers who bail out of deals, etc.

This is to protect the reputation of the forum as well as uphold the integrity of our overwhelming majority of trusted sellers.




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[SMD]

Originally Posted by agp16

!!! You guys are unreal. I never thought this post would get so much attention or support from the forums. Thanks to all of you who have helped.

UPDATE: Michael reached out to me to sort out and try to make this right. I'll be totally honest. He apologized for his behavior, disclosed his personal reasons for going AWOL and offered to get onto a payment plan to get squared away.

He sent $5k towards the $35k I paid him and we're going to execute a promissory note to memorialize the rest. (If any of you guys have other ideas or know what I'm forgetting, please let me know).

Please refrain from posting any personal info, and if possible please don't blow them up in real life. I'm hoping that as long as there's (1)Honesty and (2)Progress, everyone should get a 2nd chance.

THANK YOU again to everyone here who's been so helpful. Mike is making progress and I'd like to think we'll get to a positive resolution. Please don't let this turn south on us, the community has been extremely supportive.

Thanks!!

Any note needs to be secured with collateral and properly perfected. Use an attorney to do the UCC filings. You need to protect yourself.

I personally would actually go one further -- file a complaint in NY State court (if you file in CA you will get into a jurisdictional forum non conveniens pissing match and waste time and money). Then enter into a settlement whereby he agrees to stipulated judgment (combined with a personal guarantee) if he fails to abide by the payment plan, meaning if he misses a payment you file the judgment and then file a lien or repossess the agreed upon collateral. And, if he has a credit facility on the business, I would send a copy to them as well since they could accelerate. Point is to create enough leverage and coercion where he has no choice to pay. Right now all you have is someone stringing you along because you made a fuss publicly.

Finally, why is he not banned? He most certainly not be allowed to sell on this forum again.

[77T]

Originally Posted by SMD

Finally, why is he not banned? He most certainly not be allowed to sell on this forum again.

Banning him here for activity conducted on another platform isn’t a solution. (Reason stated near the end here)

We usually don’t like to have people bring their bad deals to TRF from other places. I was glad the OP got some help from TRF’ers. Because he was new I’m guessing the Mods exercised some latitude.

The seller (MB23) can’t sell right now on TRF because he isn’t a Pledge member. But that is just a PayPal payment away.

I suspect that MB23 probably has secretly obtained another TRF ID by now - and is only logging in via MB23 ID to see what’s cooking here. So I do see some side-benefit of this discussion for other members here.

I’d say everyone should be especially wary when buying from recently registered sellers. MB23 apparently stopped selling under that ID about a year ago - hard on the heels of a dust up about a different scammer that MB23 commented about.



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[maciej]

Originally Posted by jonnyz1245

Good points and agreed that one cannot know the whole story without being privy to it.

There is a very easy way to fix that in my opinion. Mike should come on this forum and tell his side of the story.

Silence is deafening in a situation like this, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Syed117

That's fair, but the problem is that he could have come here and explained his side of the story. He didn't, he chose to be silent.

The only people that choose to completely ignore these types of situations are usually guilty.

If I sold watches and ever saw a thread like this one about me, I would be here immediately trying to resolve the situation. This has gone on for an unreasonable amount of time.

Originally Posted by CorradoBrit

Sorry but MB23 still logs into his TRF account and is undoubtedly aware of this thread. If he's capable of posting his new Patek acquisition he's perfectly capable of posting a rebuttal to some very serious accusations. For me his silence speaks volumes.

Originally Posted by cda555

OP bought 5 watches from him in the past. Not exactly working in his favor at the moment. I get that there are two sides to a story, but Mike is obviously staying silent intentionally. That speaks volumes on its own.


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Listen, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think it's kind of fascinating how the internet mob is continues to light the torches, sharpen the pitchforks, and pontificate over the nuances of the guidelines set forth by the forum to ensure situations like this are covered, when in reality it appears that the OP and seller are already working out some sort of an agreement that's in their best interests given the circumstances.

In reality the mob continues to plot vigilante revenge, craft solutions to hypothetical issues, and confirm that the public beating in fact hasn't gone out of style; but that's because that's the society that we've evolved into.

Undoubtedly there were avoidable issues, clearly there were less than favorable choices made that have had a material impact, but in reality it becomes abundantly clear how many individuals here are business owners and how many aren't. It's easy for so many people to be able to discuss how issues are handled with hindsight being twenty twenty, but it's quite fascinating to see how people discuss issues when they take place in a vacuum and hypothesizing and learning from others' mistakes is the scenario at play.

I think a lot of people should take into account that while he is in this industry, there is a world outside of the forum, and there are a variety of facets within the industry in which people conduct their transactions. A situation like this for people more professional is an unfortunate occurrence that all individuals are cognizant of. I know from my experience in motorsports and other industries where I've had to ship things that this is an unfortunate reality. While I've lost only a small amount of money due to unscrupulous and malevolent employees of shipping companies, others I know have been far less lucky and have suffered hits in excess of tens of thousands of dollars. Hell, even in aviation I've see one guy drop off an engine worth $80k on a pallet only to realize a few days later that it was never scanned in and the f'in thing disappeared!

Either way, I'm just sitting here with popcorn watching the thread unfold and observing...

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by maciej

I have a feeling there's a bit more to this story, and in reality only he will know along with the buyer. As full disclosure I've purchased two Rolex's and two AP's from him and they were flawless transactions. Simultaneously at least a dozen of my friends have either bought or sold from him with excellent experiences as well. While online mobs are the new version of the public beating, and they most certainly haven't gone out of style, remember that you can't make blanket statements without knowing the facts. That same type of approach has put culture as a whole into quite a precarious situation worldwide.

Those are my two cents though, I've done business with Mike before and I'll gladly do business with him again, at the same token I generally don't trust any shipping outfit whatsoever for situations just like this.

Good sellers have gone bad before. It's rare, but not unheard of.

If the seller were a stand up guy he would have weighed in here to present his facts and preserve his reputation. His absence creates the perception that he is careless about his reputation. If his reputation isn't important enough to him to defend it here, why would anyone (but you) trust him?

An idea perceived is a reality achieved. I wouldn't buy a Timex from this guy.

[maciej]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Good sellers have gone bad before. It's rare, but not unheard of.

If the seller were a stand up guy he would have weighed in here to present his facts and preserve his reputation. His absence creates the perception that he is careless about his reputation. If his reputation isn't important enough to him to defend it here, why would anyone (but you) trust him?

An idea perceived is a reality achieved. I wouldn't buy a Timex from this guy.

I think most people are going to forget the fact that this isn't his main platform for buying and selling, in my case and that of many of my colleagues we've been doing business with him for over half a decade if not approaching nearly a decade with flawless results and no issues. In reality any sales that he'd lose here are so infinitesimally small, that any person in his position would realize that the potential impact of dragging out a public battle on a forum would be far more deleterious to a reputation than to just avoid it.

At least that's my hypothesis...

[gbx]

Gang - let's not forget (I include myself in this statement) that the OP has asked us to stand down now that communication has been re-established.

We all have our pitchforks sharpened, data gleaned and archived, etc. But let's respect the OPs wishes on standing down.

I believe that the OP is worried (and rightfully so) that this thread will backfire and he will not be made whole.

[erhein]

“Trusted” is the operative word in the term, “trusted seller”. It’s also the coin of the realm in the field of online sales. Violate the trust and suffer the consequences. A $35K violation certainly merits a strong, vocal reaction.

[Etschell]

being a seller involves trust.

no matter the outcome ive seen enough. he has lost mine. not that it is that relevant.

5 months and no explaination of substance.

perception hurts. logged in and didnt respond here. has a new ig with fast cars and high end watches. now ig is private.

as for the poster who is coming out to say he will buy from him that is good and well. let mb23 speak for himself too. encourage him to tell his side of the matter please.

perhaps you will say he doesnt owe it to us. you are right, but he does owe it to himself.

[Paul_I]

Anyone else feel like OP is too trusting . . . again? How long do you plan to wait when he inevitably stops paying on the 'payment plan' going forward? Another six months? You need to sue this guy. Don't be a victim, again.

Fool me once . . .

[jonnyz1245]

Originally Posted by maciej

Listen, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think it's kind of fascinating how the internet mob is continues to light the torches, sharpen the pitchforks, and pontificate over the nuances of the guidelines set forth by the forum to ensure situations like this are covered, when in reality it appears that the OP and seller are already working out some sort of an agreement that's in their best interests given the circumstances.

In reality the mob continues to plot vigilante revenge, craft solutions to hypothetical issues, and confirm that the public beating in fact hasn't gone out of style; but that's because that's the society that we've evolved into.

Undoubtedly there were avoidable issues, clearly there were less than favorable choices made that have had a material impact, but in reality it becomes abundantly clear how many individuals here are business owners and how many aren't. It's easy for so many people to be able to discuss how issues are handled with hindsight being twenty twenty, but it's quite fascinating to see how people discuss issues when they take place in a vacuum and hypothesizing and learning from others' mistakes is the scenario at play.

I think a lot of people should take into account that while he is in this industry, there is a world outside of the forum, and there are a variety of facets within the industry in which people conduct their transactions. A situation like this for people more professional is an unfortunate occurrence that all individuals are cognizant of. I know from my experience in motorsports and other industries where I've had to ship things that this is an unfortunate reality. While I've lost only a small amount of money due to unscrupulous and malevolent employees of shipping companies, others I know have been far less lucky and have suffered hits in excess of tens of thousands of dollars. Hell, even in aviation I've see one guy drop off an engine worth $80k on a pallet only to realize a few days later that it was never scanned in and the f'in thing disappeared!

Either way, I'm just sitting here with popcorn watching the thread unfold and observing...

I agreed with you and said you made some good points. I am not judging Mike because I am not privy to both sides of the story. I'm not lighting torches or jumping on any band wagon.

In a situation such as this I do find it very interesting that anybody, not just him, would not come and give their side. Again, the silence is deafening. I stand by that. Not a judgement or criticism, just an observation.


And as you said, I have no dog in this fight so I will just watch the thread unfold.

I do hope the deal between him and OP is honored and concluded successfully. That is the best possible outcome for the OP.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by maciej

I think most people are going to forget the fact that this isn't his main platform for buying and selling, in my case and that of many of my colleagues we've been doing business with him for over half a decade if not approaching nearly a decade with flawless results and no issues. In reality any sales that he'd lose here are so infinitesimally small, that any person in his position would realize that the potential impact of dragging out a public battle on a forum would be far more deleterious to a reputation than to just avoid it.

At least that's my hypothesis...

Then he shouldn't have any trouble returning the $35K without resorting to a payment plan, yeah? His actions don't match your perceptions. Something has changed in his MO and he has become high risk.

Originally Posted by gbx

Gang - let's not forget (I include myself in this statement) that the OP has asked us to stand down now that communication has been re-established.

We all have our pitchforks sharpened, data gleaned and archived, etc. But let's respect the OPs wishes on standing down.

I believe that the OP is worried (and rightfully so) that this thread will backfire and he will not be made whole.

I think the OP should follow SMD's advice if he ever expects to be made whole. This thread isn't driving the payback train. The OP has to compete with the seller's demons and needs all the coercive leverage he can get.

[Syed117]

Originally Posted by maciej

Listen, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think it's kind of fascinating how the internet mob is continues to light the torches, sharpen the pitchforks, and pontificate over the nuances of the guidelines set forth by the forum to ensure situations like this are covered, when in reality it appears that the OP and seller are already working out some sort of an agreement that's in their best interests given the circumstances.

In reality the mob continues to plot vigilante revenge, craft solutions to hypothetical issues, and confirm that the public beating in fact hasn't gone out of style; but that's because that's the society that we've evolved into.

Undoubtedly there were avoidable issues, clearly there were less than favorable choices made that have had a material impact, but in reality it becomes abundantly clear how many individuals here are business owners and how many aren't. It's easy for so many people to be able to discuss how issues are handled with hindsight being twenty twenty, but it's quite fascinating to see how people discuss issues when they take place in a vacuum and hypothesizing and learning from others' mistakes is the scenario at play.

I think a lot of people should take into account that while he is in this industry, there is a world outside of the forum, and there are a variety of facets within the industry in which people conduct their transactions. A situation like this for people more professional is an unfortunate occurrence that all individuals are cognizant of. I know from my experience in motorsports and other industries where I've had to ship things that this is an unfortunate reality. While I've lost only a small amount of money due to unscrupulous and malevolent employees of shipping companies, others I know have been far less lucky and have suffered hits in excess of tens of thousands of dollars. Hell, even in aviation I've see one guy drop off an engine worth $80k on a pallet only to realize a few days later that it was never scanned in and the f'in thing disappeared!

Either way, I'm just sitting here with popcorn watching the thread unfold and observing...

I'm not really a mob kind of guy, but I'd love to see what you're reaction would be if you sent someone 35k and didn't get your money or a watch after 6 months.

I can't believe that the OP let it get this far. 6 months?

I'm sure any normal person would be ready with more than one pitch fork after that amount of time.

How you can defend someone based on that behavior is beyond me.

There is no justification for it.

[Lime]

Like someone else said, the money was sent to him. Where did it go? Why is a payment plan required?

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by Syed117

I'm not really a mob kind of guy, but I'd love to see what you're reaction would be if you sent someone 35k and didn't get your money or a watch after 6 months.

I can't believe that the OP let it get this far. 6 months?

I'm sure any normal person would be ready with more than one pitch fork after that amount of time.

How you can defend someone based on that behavior is beyond me.

There is no justification for it.

And the sellers IG post earlier from today showing that he has possession of a new 50K Patek 5712. Oh boy. Something just doesn't add up here.

[myc ritz]

Originally Posted by Lime

I would go the legal path to set up the payment terms still despite him reaching out after he was exposed

This.

[dmash]

So he pocketed $35k from you, drove a $100k lambo and recently sold a 660k home.....yet can only give you 5k right now and needs a payment plan. lol ok.


oh and please, let's not forget, he literally stole OP's money for 5 months and only is seemingly trying to 'make it right' once this thread was started and so many people got in on this. his reputation SHOULD be tainted after this crap and it be blatantly visible for ANYONE thinking about doing business with him in the future. Kudos to you for keeping your cool OP, but IMO it is entirely too nice for what he has put you through.

*and if that posting about a new Patek is true, while claiming he can't pay you that money back......I would have immediately took an attorney and got this squared away. if you can't see he's blatantly insulting you at that point, not sure what else to say.

[dmash]

Also, Rule 7 of this forum clearly states:

‘7. Knowing that a scammer is a banned or current member, and not reporting it to Admin, is an offence that carries a mandatory TRF suspension and may result in an permanent ban.’

Regardless of 5 months later making contact, Mods should 100% be contacted about this situation, by the OP. They can decide the outcome. If what all OP states is true, with nothing ‘extra’ being left out, the guy should never be allowed to do business here, or even be a part of the community for that matter.

[ejvette]

Wow what a nightmare

[joli160]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Then he shouldn't have any trouble returning the $35K without resorting to a payment plan, yeah? His actions don't match your perceptions. Something has changed in his MO and he has become high risk.

I think the OP should follow SMD's advice if he ever expects to be made whole. This thread isn't driving the payback train. The OP has to compete with the seller's demons and needs all the coercive leverage he can get.

Fully agree, better save than sorry again

[77T]

Originally Posted by dmash

Also, Rule 7 of this forum clearly states:

‘7. Knowing that a scammer is a banned or current member, and not reporting it to Admin, is an offence that carries a mandatory TRF suspension and may result in an permanent ban.’

Regardless of 5 months later making contact, Mods should 100% be contacted about this situation, by the OP. They can decide the outcome. If what all OP states is true, with nothing ‘extra’ being left out, the guy should never be allowed to do business here, or even be a part of the community for that matter.

While I agree with Rule 7’s purpose, are you certain the seller IS a scammer? Or is this somethings else that he and the OP worked out? The OP brought this to the table within a day of joining he forum - very likely to get the result he got. Is he certain the seller IS a scammer? The OP posted that the seller gave him and explanation which was acceptable and negotiated a settlement.

I have my suspicions and therefore I did not contact a Mod. Because I am still not sure, Rule 7 doesn’t apply to me or anyone else who is currently uncertain.

If you are certain the seller is a scammer and you know he is a current member here, then doesn’t the rule to report it apply to you equally?

Not a rant - just asking since you appeared certain.


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[juniorlawrence]

Originally Posted by jvmartin

That's actually a really smart idea... the only issue I can see from this is if you accept a watch it may be considered in his mind as a done deal...

Do what another poster said take the $5,000 payment/promissory note and watch as collateral.

The collateral watch(s) should be in excess of the $30,000. I would say a 50% discount of said collateral so I would want $60,000 worth of collateral/watches...

I wouldn't even lend $30,000 to a family member without some sort of "promise to pay" and collateral....

[bdex75]

Originally Posted by juniorlawrence

Do what another poster said take the $5,000 payment/promissory note and watch as collateral.



The collateral watch(s) should be in excess of the $30,000. I would say a 50% discount of said collateral so I would want $60,000 worth of collateral/watches...



I wouldn't even lend $30,000 to a family member without some sort of "promise to pay" and collateral....

Like the PP he just posted. Seller needs to have some motivation to repay the OP quickly.

I find it extremely ridiculous that a guy posting pictures of a $700,000 house and a $250,000 car cannot pay back the $35,000 he took from someone immediately but I guess the bank won’t loan him the money??


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[dmash]

Originally Posted by 77T

While I agree with Rule 7’s purpose, are you certain the seller IS a scammer? Or is this somethings else that he and the OP worked out? The OP brought this to the table within a day of joining he forum - very likely to get the result he got. Is he certain the seller IS a scammer? The OP posted that the seller gave him and explanation which was acceptable and negotiated a settlement.

I have my suspicions and therefore I did not contact a Mod. Because I am still not sure, Rule 7 doesn’t apply to me or anyone else who is currently uncertain.

If you are certain the seller is a scammer and you know he is a current member here, then doesn’t the rule to report it apply to you equally?

Not a rant - just asking since you appeared certain.


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OP paid $35k for a watch, did not receive, and for five months was ‘ghosted’ according to him, with no contact whatsoever from Michael. Only after this thread’s creation, has Michael attempted to ‘make things right’. That may not be grounds for him being a ‘scammer’, but even if OP get his money back, it does indeed look like an attempted scam, and incredibly unprofessional. Hence, my mentioning of Rule 7, and that mods should be contacted. As stated, they can interpret the situation how they please, but this kind of ‘pay and ignore you for 5 months’ should not be tolerated whatsoever by this community and another member needs to never experience that kind of treatment. Would anybody seriously argue that point?

What’s so weird, is that as others have stated, his username has obviously been active. If there’s a shred of dishonesty by OP, Michael would have responded. There are no lawyers involved, otherwise he wouldn’t have reached out and made a $5k payment. Why in the world would he not attempt to clear things up, other than the fact he’s blatantly guilty of all that’s said? Or furthermore, if the OP’s entire story was fabricated, Michael could have made a post and cleared himself of every bit of this. If he wasn’t guilty, would he seriously know this thread exists and let his reputation become tarnished? Of course not...

[77T]

Originally Posted by dmash

OP paid $35k for a watch, did not receive, and for five months was ‘ghosted’ according to him, with no contact whatsoever from Michael. Only after this thread’s creation, has Michael attempted to ‘make things right’. That may not be grounds for him being a ‘scammer’, but even if OP get his money back, it does indeed look like an attempted scam, and incredibly unprofessional. Hence, my mentioning of Rule 7, and that mods should be contacted. As stated, they can interpret the situation how they please, but this kind of ‘pay and ignore you for 5 months’ should not be tolerated whatsoever by this community and another member needs to never experience that kind of treatment. Would anybody seriously argue that point?

What’s so weird, is that as others have stated, his username has obviously been active. If there’s a shred of dishonesty by OP, Michael would have responded. There are no lawyers involved, otherwise he wouldn’t have reached out and made a $5k payment. Why in the world would he not attempt to clear things up, other than the fact he’s blatantly guilty of all that’s said? Or furthermore, if the OP’s entire story was fabricated, Michael could have made a post and cleared himself of every bit of this. If he wasn’t guilty, would he seriously know this thread exists and let his reputation become tarnished? Of course not...

Yeah - I’ve read the whole thread so understand your view - but my other question was:

“If you are certain the seller is a scammer and you know he is a current member here, then doesn’t the rule to report it apply to you equally?”

Again, not a rant - just asking since you appeared certain.


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