Relumed PCG 1675 dial

[phillip ridley]

Originally Posted by roh123

Just to clarify. You made a a dial from a 1030 movement fit a 1530? More concretely a 6538 dial to fit this 5512. Or am I mistaken and it is two separate projects?

Edit: Two different projects. Still an interesting request even though dial swapping (even between references) isn’t anything new. :)

My apologies, I was only involved with repairing the 5512 square crown guard dial as it belonged to the 1500 caliber family.

MM requested to alter and I did not oblige.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by roh123

Not sure what Michaels age has to do with anything? He is a well-known and reputable dealer. Regardless of his age. He deals in fine watches and is undoubtably one of the bigger players selling high-grade vintage Rolex sports watches today. Focus on the issue instead. The fact a watch comes in with a bad relume and goes out with a nice which is not even disclosed.

There’s nothing to gain from focusing on what he did or looked like in 2012. What is important is this watch and what happened. Both Stephanes and Michaels reputation is at stake and in this business that means everything.

Yep, he’s a grown man.


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[roh123]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Find me another 13 year old watch dealer you would drop 20k with and I'm a believer

He’s not 13 years old. He’s an adult with many years experience in the business and he has dealt with lots of collectors and dealers through out the years. He’s one of the better contributors of knowledge on this forum which should excuse his young age for those that think age is of importance.

I still expect to find out what happened. I just don’t understand why some think his young age is the problem. The problem is the relumed GMT which was sold as original.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

Not sure what Michaels age has to do with anything? He is a well-known and reputable dealer. Regardless of his age. He deals in fine watches and is undoubtably one of the bigger players selling high-grade vintage Rolex sports watches today. Focus on the issue instead. The fact a watch comes in with a bad relume and goes out with a nice which is not even disclosed.

There’s nothing to gain from focusing on what he did or looked like in 2012. What is important is this watch and what happened. Both Stephanes and Michaels reputation is at stake and in this business that means everything.

I believe age is relevant here...or at the very least maturity/immaturity, which is more often than not a product of age. Most people's ethical choices change considerably after the age of 22 and I think at this point it is fair to wonder or ask if this situation is related to that fact.

[swish77]

Just re-read this thread twice and I'm still a little confused. Need the Cliff Notes version.

Bottom line is that I'm not sure I buy either explanation from these two top vintage Rolex dealers. After countless sales of high-end vintage Rolexes through the years, neither of them realized that the dial in this GMT had been altered? Forget for a moment who had which version of the watch when ... They both had this watch in their hands at some point with the final version of the re-lumed dial. Seems as if it should have been known/recognized (and disclosed) by two experts.

Best-case scenario is that it's very sloppy watch-dealing. Worst-case is, well, that's obvious.

Both dealers get black eyes, but I'm also not sure I'd condemn them forever. Both have (had) stellar reputations for years. Does this completely ruin that? Perhaps it does, perhaps not. At a minimum, damage has been done, which is sad.

[Pitbos]

This thread has gone off the rails.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I believe age is relevant here...or at the very least maturity/immaturity, which is more often than not a product of age. Most people's ethical choices change considerably after the age of 22 and I think at this point it is fair to wonder or ask if this situation is related to that fact.

Let’s find out what happened first. After that anyone can speculate in why this happened if they want to. Personally I don’t care for the motives. I just think the community deserves to know how this could happen.

Let’s ask the relevant questions instead. Who sold the watch back with the relume? If that even was the case. Where is the watch now and will it be sold again? If so; will the relume be disclosed? Bonus question; does it cost closer to the relumed initial price of 40k or the later relumed price of 88k? Kind of curious how the disclosed relume will affect value. ;)

[SubKing]

I think everyone in this thread should watch the documentary sour grapes on Netflix.
Has to do with the world of wine collecting and how a young collector in CA fooled many collectors, dealers and auction houses with fakes rare bottles of wine that he expertly mixed to mimic the actual wines and re bottled them to factory spec. It shocked the market place and till this day, they don’t know how far the damage had gone of all the fake bottles filtered into the market by this young collector but it’s in the millions of dollars.

A key point of the documentary *Spoiler Alert* that there were other serious players behind this young collectors fraudulent activity.
Not to get off topic, but it’s eye opening as to what can happen within any world of rare collectibles

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by Pitbos

This thread has gone off the rails.

Not really... seems like things are falling in place

[swish77]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I think everyone in this thread should watch the documentary sour grapes on Netflix.

Seen it, and not sure it's a fair analogy. The guy in "Sour Grapes" was a straight-up crook/forger from start to finish.

Medam and Morgan have been very well-respected dealers for years. This case of the relumed GMT is bad, of course, but the implication that it's more wide-spread is not substantiated.

At this point, now that all details have been revealed (presumably), I think we need to be careful about making sweeping assumptions. Just my 2 cents.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

Let’s find out what happened first. After that anyone can speculate in why this happened if they want to. Personally I don’t care for the motives. I just think the community deserves to know how this could happen.

Let’s ask the relevant questions instead.

We agree that we benefit from more information. We don't have as much as we'd like currently.

I don't know either of these guys at all; my introduction to this situation and these dealers was this thread. And though the obvious issue is who knew what when, the elephant in the room for anyone introduced with limited facts would naturally be, "woah, elephant in the room...child prodigy who advises on very large vintage watch sales?"

We all want to know the who what why when (but I don't think we're going to get it). But in journalism speak, there is a buried lede here..."Wealthy Watch Collectors Took Counsel From Child Prodigy." He may be 22 now, but one inferred message from this thread is that the experts' expert (as some would seem to imply here) in years past was a child. It's not only interesting, but it is relevant in an industry where everyone advises to "buy the seller" and that years of experience is paramount. An important vintage Rolex decade was overseen in part by a child? That is interesting.

Where do any of us take professional advice from children? This is unique. And relevant.

In fact, if his age were not relevant to his position within the field (and transitively to this thread), he would have marketed his child prodigy status rather than be vague about it on purpose.

There are certainly more pressing questions, I agree, but this is relevant to the larger conversation.

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by swish77

Just re-read this thread twice and I'm still a little confused. Need the Cliff Notes version.

Bottom line is that I'm not sure I buy either explanation from these two top vintage Rolex dealers. After countless sales of high-end vintage Rolexes through the years, neither of them realized that the dial in this GMT had been altered? Forget for a moment who had which version of the watch when ... They both had this watch in their hands at some point with the final version of the re-lumed dial. Seems as if it should have been known/recognized (and disclosed) by two experts.

Best-case scenario is that it's very sloppy watch-dealing. Worst-case is, well, that's obvious.

Both dealers get black eyes, but I'm also not sure I'd condemn them forever. Both have (had) stellar reputations for years. Does this completely ruin that? Perhaps it does, perhaps not. At a minimum, damage has been done, which is sad.

I agree... I dont buy the "I didnt recognise it was relumed" bit ......

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

Seen it, and not sure it's a fair analogy. The guy in "Sour Grapes" was a straight-up crook/forger from start to finish.

Medam and Morgan have been very well-respected dealers for years. This case of the relumed GMT is bad, of course, but the implication that it's more wide-spread is not substantiated.

At this point, now that all details have been revealed (presumably), I think we need to be careful about making sweeping assumptions. Just my 2 cents.

Relax Aaron. You’re taking my documentary recommendation too much to heart.
It wasn’t directed towards Morgan or Stephane, it is directed towards our hobby and any hobby of rare and fine collectibles. I just think many would enjoy it. Nothing more nothing less.....

[swish77]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Relax Aaron. You’re taking my documentary recommendation too much to heart.
It wasn’t directed towards Morgan or Stephane, it is directed towards our hobby and any hobby of rare and fine collectibles. I just think many would enjoy it. Nothing more nothing less.....

Yes, understood, totally relaxed about it. But in the context of this thread, which is about Medam and Morgan, not sure I would have made the comparison, that's all.

It's all good, though!

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Relax Aaron. You’re taking my documentary recommendation too much to heart.
It wasn’t directed towards Morgan or Stephane, it is directed towards our hobby and any hobby of rare and fine collectibles. I just think many would enjoy it. Nothing more nothing less.....

Seemed like you were drawing a direct correlation.

Now who claimed the dial was swapped out, and who was the claim made to?


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[SubKing]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Seemed like you were drawing a direct correlation.

Now who claimed the dial was swapped out, and who was the claim made to?


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I was, with regards to rare collectibles..

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

Yes, understood, totally relaxed about it. But in the context of this thread, which is about Medam and Morgan, not sure I would have made the comparison, that's all.

It's all good, though!

I been actually defending Stephane since he made his statement here. Not sure if you have read through the thread?

As for Morgan, I would never deal with him after this. Doesn’t get a pass, not for this and not after what Phillip Ridley posted.

[southtexas]

Here it is again:


I’m not sure what native tongues are at work here (which might be why I’m confused), but worldly watches seems to acknowledge there was a prior question on a dial, and he affirmatively states that Morgan had exchanged that one for a proper dial “not relumed”.

Did Michael tell him the newly relumed dial was a completely different dial, and the relume was so good it tricked worldly watch?

Both parties’ one and only statements in this thread are ambiguous at best (and oddly timed), but is “oops-my bad” a sufficient defense here?


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[mking0714]

Hey party people! Been following this for a while and I have to say, this scandal is better than anything on Netflix during this pandemic....I’ve had the pleasure of personally knowing Michael Morgan, Stephane Medam and Frank Da Tank Maritime for a long long time from the LA watch collectors circles! I met Michael Morgan and his father Brad (his chauffeur and chaperone) at Lawrys at the South Coast Plaza when he was just 12 years old! He wanted to see my Newman Daytonas and I found it hilarious that a kid his age would be that much interested in them! I was a little upset when he wanted to stack all the watches on top of each other just to get a profile shot.....only to have them lose balance and fall on the table....luckily, no harm, no foul....thankfully all the Lums were still intact!
My point is we’ve all been there.....
Young and Dumb....
the dude is 20 years old now .....I have pubic hair older than him..... yes, he’s a great authority on vintage pieces and yes, he’s handled plenty of top shelf pieces....but yes, he’s only a kid!
I’m 45 years old and I’m still doing stupid things!!
Only time will tell on this one.
Up to this weekend, none of us would have had any doubt in buying anything from these 2 esteemed dealers.
After this event, I have no doubt that Stephane and m&m have learned much from this and regardless if you believe their statement or not, they both understand that their only option now is to proceed with integrity and transparency should they want to secure their legacy in the watch community.
Stephane will definitely be looking at everything with more scrutiny and as he stated in his post, will be sharing what he finds out from this 1675 in question for the betterment of our community.
Meanwhile, m&m needs to make sure that going forward, he needs to be even more transparent than ever....because he knows.....we will all be watching him......I still believe that as a watch community, there are more good intentioned people out there for the collective better good! Matt D aka watchknut is a clear example of that! In my mind, both esteemed dealers have apologized and have taken full responsibility for their actions. Let’s give them a chance to redeem themselves and let time tell.


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[roh123]

You are a wise man Morgan but aren’t you at all interested in what happened and where the watch will go now? Just saying shit happens without anyone taking responsibility is kind of too easy and doesn’t make anyone learn anything. Also there’s a good chance this watch is sold again to an unknowing buyer.

We don’t need to hang anyone but it would be nice to know more. And be confident this relumed dial doesn’t dissapoint anyone again. It’s a sweet watch as long as the owner knows what he has. A beautifully rare and relumed OCC GMT.

Michael claims a buyer tricked him by selling him the watch back with the relumed dial. The normal thing to do then is to name that person. Not just say ”my bad” and hope everything goes away.

[Juhuatai]

Originally Posted by SubKing

nothing wrong with asking question's. I been following this since the first post about it on instagram.

Given all the current information, I just don't think it's right to paint a target on Stephanes back when he to was mislead. It all spins back on Michael.

Stephane got burned in this situation as well.. He took responsibility for not catching it because the lume job is just that good..

The difference between the two sellers is that Stephane owns all his watches and Michael doesn't carry any inventory and tried to sell the watch behind the scenes.

Totally agree with you SubKing. Pretty clear that Stephane did nothing wrong here. He was sold the watch by MM, was told the dial was original, and then tried to sell the watch on. He trusted MM and didn't catch the relume because as you said it's so good. When alerted, he stopped the shipment and immediately refunded buyer. What else can he do?

[Tavli3]

Springer I think you hit the nail on the head. Both responses are so nonchalant, especially Stephane's regarding MM. So we are to read these two responses and conclude all is well in Vintageland! I've come to my own conclusion which some will object to but I call Bullshit on both.
MM is an obvious fraud and is the easy part of this debacle. Stephane's response leaves me suspicious for two reasons.
1. Is this statement by him" I’ve been collecting for many years and I pride myself of owning every watch I sell. This is an important part of my business, because I would never personally sell a watch that I didn’t personally own first. I firmly believe in quality over quantity."
Which means he bought this watch from MM for himself at I'm sure was a significant price.
2. Stephane's second statement that makes me suspicious is where he states he will leave MM to speak for himself.
HUH????

This guy just ripped you off personally on a 88K or somewhere along that amount watch.
Remember he buys for himself first. This guy sold you a watch under false premise that you bought for yourself and then you in turn sold it to a customer under false premise thus endangering your highly regarded reputation which in turn endangers your livelihood. And you respond with some milk toast statement regarding this guy, MM???

I would think Stephane's response would have been a tad more strongly worded to say the least with regard to MM. Stephane has no reason nor obligation to not throw MM under the bus if he truly misled/ripped off Stephane.

Then Stephane states we is getting the watch back and will hold it for some time to study it.
Yhea I would study it also after I stuff it back to MM where the sun don't shine to see how fast the lume fades if he risked my reputation and livelihood like he did to Stephane.

My opinion of this mess, you are free to disagree and I could care less that RPM has reinstated him. Until I see a public denouncement of MM from Stephane my opinion of both will not change. This is a black eye to everyone involved and to the whole hobby itself.

[mking0714]

Originally Posted by roh123

You are a wise man Morgan but aren’t you at all interested in what happened and where the watch will go now? Just saying shit happens without anyone taking responsibility is kind of too easy and doesn’t make anyone learn anything. Also there’s a good chance this watch is sold again to an unknowing buyer.

We don’t need to hang anyone but it would be nice to know more. And be confident this relumed dial doesn’t dissapoint anyone again. It’s a sweet watch as long as the owner knows what he has. A beautifully rare and relumed OCC GMT.

Michael claims a buyer tricked him by selling him the watch back with the relumed dial. The normal thing to do then is to name that person. Not just say ”my bad” and hope everything goes away.

Of course I’m curious!
I’m curious AF!
But there’s only one person who can do that for you now......who knows...the day is still young.
Perhaps he may post again and spill his guts and tell you everything in detail to your satisfaction...
but who knows, will people actually believe him unless he says exactly what you’re hoping he would say?
I don’t know.....he’s 20 years old.
I can’t even understand my 25 year old nephew!
As smart and as knowledgeable m&m is regarding watches, we sometimes feel we are dealing with an older person....we need to remember that he’s still got many years ahead of maturity and growth.
He’s the only dude at our watch get togethers that gets giddy and excited like a teenager....and guess what?
He is exactly that....
A teenager.
Perhaps he may seek advice of his father and something will materialize in the near future.
But I’ll tell you for sure, if he’s smart, his next watch offering will be clean as a whistle as the community is watching and what he does now will determine his legacy here. But only Time will Tell.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by phillip ridley

[B]

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...1031&highlight

This link shows a 5512 where the one dial foot was missing, then re-attached. Shortly afterwards, MM contacted my via text asking if I would be able to alter the dial feet to fit a Rolex 1530 caliber movement. The 1500 caliber movement never had dial feet in any position other than what you see today, regardless of sport, date, day-date, perpetual or any other... each 1500 caliber dial fits the movement.

I thought to myself this had to be a one-off and left it to that. But after seeing what was clearly not a mistake made me feel that it be necessary for me to share this.

Phillip, maybe I'm missing something, but do you know exactly why MM asked you to alter the dial feet?

It certainly doesn't sound good on the surface, but I'm trying to fully understand why someone would try to put a dial on a movement that doesn't belong there.

For the most part, we all know, down to the font of tiny lettering on a dial, what belongs where on what serial number range with what movement. What would/could be gained by altering the feet on a dial for a watch that didn't come with that dial? Wouldn't it be obvious?

[phillip ridley]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I think everyone in this thread should watch the documentary sour grapes on Netflix.
Has to do with the world of wine collecting and how a young collector in CA fooled many collectors, dealers and auction houses with fakes rare bottles of wine that he expertly mixed to mimic the actual wines and re bottled them to factory spec. It shocked the market place and till this day, they don’t know how far the damage had gone of all the fake bottles filtered into the market by this young collector but it’s in the millions of dollars.

A key point of the documentary *Spoiler Alert* that there were other serious players behind this young collectors fraudulent activity.
Not to get off topic, but it’s eye opening as to what can happen within any world of rare collectibles

Great point and I completely agree

[roh123]

Originally Posted by mking0714

Of course I’m curious!
I’m curious AF!
But there’s only one person who can do that for you now......who knows...the day is still young.
Perhaps he may post again and spill his guts and tell you everything in detail to your satisfaction...
but who knows, will people actually believe him unless he says exactly what you’re hoping he would say?
I don’t know.....he’s 20 years old.
I can’t even understand my 25 year old nephew!
As smart and as knowledgeable m&m is regarding watches, we sometimes feel we are dealing with an older person....we need to remember that he’s still got many years ahead of maturity and growth.
He’s the only dude at our watch get togethers that gets giddy and excited like a teenager....and guess what?
He is exactly that....
A teenager.
Perhaps he may seek advice of his father and something will materialize in the near future.
But I’ll tell you for sure, if he’s smart, his next watch offering will be clean as a whistle as the community is watching and what he does now will determine his legacy here. But only Time will Tell.

Who knows.. I would prefer to hear of an evil mastermind that could have fooled anyone. I just have a feeling the answer is much simpler. It often is..

We all live and learn. This story has many similarities to what happened in the community in 2011 when we had long discussions both here and on VRF. Time will indeed tell..

Gonna go fiddle with some watches and see if it can keep me away from sad shit like this. Be well!

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by mking0714

Of course I’m curious!
I’m curious AF!
But there’s only one person who can do that for you now......who knows...the day is still young.
Perhaps he may post again and spill his guts and tell you everything in detail to your satisfaction...
but who knows, will people actually believe him unless he says exactly what you’re hoping he would say?
I don’t know.....he’s 20 years old.
I can’t even understand my 25 year old nephew!
As smart and as knowledgeable m&m is regarding watches, we sometimes feel we are dealing with an older person....we need to remember that he’s still got many years ahead of maturity and growth.
He’s the only dude at our watch get togethers that gets giddy and excited like a teenager....and guess what?
He is exactly that....
A teenager.
Perhaps he may seek advice of his father and something will materialize in the near future.
But I’ll tell you for sure, if he’s smart, his next watch offering will be clean as a whistle as the community is watching and what he does now will determine his legacy here. But only Time will Tell.

While I, personally, agree with most of this, he is and should be held to a higher standard...unless your 25 year old nephew is also a proclaimed expert who also happens to sell millions of dollars of Rolex by relying on his good name?

His first (only?) Post was stupefyingly vague; and let’s all agree he’s watching this thread like a hawk?


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[phillip ridley]

Originally Posted by swish77

Phillip, maybe I'm missing something, but do you know exactly why MM asked you to alter the dial feet?

It certainly doesn't sound good on the surface, but I'm trying to fully understand why someone would try to put a dial on a movement that doesn't belong there.

For the most part, we all know, down to the font of tiny lettering on a dial, what belongs where on what serial number range with what movement. What would/could be gained by altering the feet on a dial for a watch that didn't come with that dial? Wouldn't it be obvious?

Hi Aaron, per the positioning of the dial feet in the first photo, It looks to me to belong to a 1030 caliber. Knowing the conversion from the 1030 caliber to the 1500 caliber happened in the late 50's, I only took it as a possible transitional dial...also, knowing what we now know about the professional re-lume, the ability to deceive is there if done properly.

[btinl]

Originally Posted by roh123

Who knows.. I would prefer to hear of an evil mastermind that could have fooled anyone. I just have a feeling the answer is much simpler. It often is..

We all live and learn. This story has many similarities to what happened in the community in 2011 when we had long discussions both here and on VRF. Time will indeed tell..

Gonna go fiddle with some watches and see if it can keep me away from sad shit like this. Be well!

I believe those individuals from 2011 are still involved in vintage rolex but selling through other "trusted dealers."

[1watch]

I don't think anything has been settled to the satisfaction of serious collectors who invest significant resources to issue hall passes to anyone involved at this point. We would like to better understand how this relume job could have reportedly fooled dealer(s) specializing in high end vintage Rolex. As they say, the devil is in the details and full details have not been provided up to this point and statements/timelines are conflicting which only creates more suspicion.

We haven't heard an answer to a question asked about who did the work and under what pretense as well. The relume work may have been done honestly or dishonestly and that's part of the puzzle. It's also of interest to track what happens with this particular piece, to understand where it goes and how it gets represented to any prospective future buyer.