Shreve in San Francisco/ Palo Alto lost Patek status

[indianmachine]

sometimes best to just enjoy the collection and not worry about where the next ones will come from

[rolexandlange]

I really don't think the Sterns care about the collectors with a handful of Pateks in a watchbox sitting in a safe at home in the Bay Area. Just look in general at the industry ignoring the Bay Area completely. I love watches but I've got too much going on to fly to LA or Vegas just for a watch. Patek might care about those with collections in bank vaults who support their auction prices. The brand wants to be worn by celebrities at sporting events or worn by footballers moreso than the guy who started his own business and made a few bucks to enjoy for himself with a handful of Pateks in San Francisco. If you weren't born with it and are below the level of punting around with the Arnauds (a la zachattach, "buying from Thierry since I was 12 years old!") and summering in villas at Lake Como, I don't think you're going to get much from Geneva. That's just my impression of the brand, in general, but to each their own. Maybe if you extensively whore out your collection on social media and have lots of followers they might care? Unclear. Sad times for Shreve losing Lange and Patek in 2022. If you're considering the alternative, I checked out the Patek closet at Tiffany's in San Francisco and Alex told me it's a 5-10 year wait any Patek watch from Tiffany's.

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

I really don't think the Sterns care about the collectors with a handful of Pateks in a watchbox sitting in a safe at home in the Bay Area. Just look in general at the industry ignoring the Bay Area completely. I love watches but I've got too much going on to fly to LA or Vegas just for a watch. Patek might care about those with collections in bank vaults who support their auction prices. The brand wants to be worn by celebrities at sporting events or worn by footballers moreso than the guy who started his own business and made a few bucks to enjoy for himself with a handful of Pateks in San Francisco. If you weren't born with it and are below the level of punting around with the Arnauds (a la zachattach, "buying from Thierry since I was 12 years old!") and summering in villas at Lake Como, I don't think you're going to get much from Geneva. That's just my impression of the brand, in general, but to each their own. Maybe if you extensively whore out your collection on social media and have lots of followers they might care? Unclear. Sad times for Shreve losing Lange and Patek in 2022. If you're considering the alternative, I checked out the Patek closet at Tiffany's in San Francisco and Alex told me it's a 5-10 year wait any Patek watch from Tiffany's.

It’s not just about having a list of clients they care about and the rest who they don’t. It’s about actually maintaining Veblen good status for their product, which is very difficult. If they would genuinely want to fulfil the wishes of all their Uber-collectors they wouldn’t be limiting rare handcraft dome clocks and pocket watches to piece uniques and Calatravas to 3-5 per model. Even massive collectors get (maybe) one of those assigned every few years even though many of them would gladly buy one or several of every single thing that leaves the factory.

Telling people with enough money to buy anything that they have to jump through hoops to get something has proven to be a good business model for PP. I’m assuming that they’re just continuing on that path.

At some point in every PP collector’s journey there will (if one’s as important to the AD as one assumes) be events and trips and contacts with the PP AD relation/client relation manager for one’s own region. I know for a fact that establishing a personal link with these can be very helpful if one’s AD gets cut off.

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

I really don't think the Sterns care about the collectors with a handful of Pateks in a watchbox sitting in a safe at home in the Bay Area. Just look in general at the industry ignoring the Bay Area completely. I love watches but I've got too much going on to fly to LA or Vegas just for a watch. Patek might care about those with collections in bank vaults who support their auction prices. The brand wants to be worn by celebrities at sporting events or worn by footballers moreso than the guy who started his own business and made a few bucks to enjoy for himself with a handful of Pateks in San Francisco. If you weren't born with it and are below the level of punting around with the Arnauds (a la zachattach, "buying from Thierry since I was 12 years old!") and summering in villas at Lake Como, I don't think you're going to get much from Geneva. That's just my impression of the brand, in general, but to each their own. Maybe if you extensively whore out your collection on social media and have lots of followers they might care? Unclear. Sad times for Shreve losing Lange and Patek in 2022. If you're considering the alternative, I checked out the Patek closet at Tiffany's in San Francisco and Alex told me it's a 5-10 year wait any Patek watch from Tiffany's.

Gotta be a rapper to get the good AP these days……even worse

[Nicof]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

I really don't think the Sterns care about the collectors with a handful of Pateks in a watchbox sitting in a safe at home in the Bay Area. Just look in general at the industry ignoring the Bay Area completely. I love watches but I've got too much going on to fly to LA or Vegas just for a watch. Patek might care about those with collections in bank vaults who support their auction prices. The brand wants to be worn by celebrities at sporting events or worn by footballers moreso than the guy who started his own business and made a few bucks to enjoy for himself with a handful of Pateks in San Francisco. If you weren't born with it and are below the level of punting around with the Arnauds (a la zachattach, "buying from Thierry since I was 12 years old!") and summering in villas at Lake Como, I don't think you're going to get much from Geneva. That's just my impression of the brand, in general, but to each their own. Maybe if you extensively whore out your collection on social media and have lots of followers they might care? Unclear. Sad times for Shreve losing Lange and Patek in 2022. If you're considering the alternative, I checked out the Patek closet at Tiffany's in San Francisco and Alex told me it's a 5-10 year wait any Patek watch from Tiffany's.

I don’t know if Geneva cares about the collectors in the Bay Area or not but what I do know is that I’m not a huge collector, I don’t have social media, I’m definitely not a celebrity and yet, in my opinion, I’ve been treated incredibly well by PP over the years so I would have to disagree with most of what you’ve said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by Nicof

I don’t know if Geneva cares about the collectors in the Bay Area or not but what I do know is that I’m not a huge collector, I don’t have social media, I’m definitely not a celebrity and yet, in my opinion, I’ve been treated incredibly well by PP over the years so I would have to disagree with most of what you’ve said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When you say treated well by PP I believe you mean your AD? Someone mentioned losing their PP AD and wanting PP HQ Geneva to get involved in introducing them to a new AD because they were a good customer to the previous AD. They posted a picture of a very nice collection but not one that's going to get a Stern to roll out of bed for.

My point is that unless you own the Kairos collection or are important to the brand in some way, I don't think Patek cares, rightly or wrongly. Someone else mentioned that they didn't want to drop $300k on diamonds at a new PP AD to get the relationship going. I don't think the brand is reaching out to customers proactively that don't have $300k to drop on a few new shiny things to get allocated some nice Pateks.

[Nicof]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

When you say treated well by PP I believe you mean your AD? Someone mentioned losing their PP AD and wanting PP HQ Geneva to get involved in introducing them to a new AD because they were a good customer to the previous AD. They posted a picture of a very nice collection but not one that's going to get a Stern to roll out of bed for.

My point is that unless you own the Kairos collection or are important to the brand in some way, I don't think Patek cares, rightly or wrongly. Someone else mentioned that they didn't want to drop $300k on diamonds at a new PP AD to get the relationship going. I don't think the brand is reaching out to customers proactively that don't have $300k to drop on a few new shiny things to get allocated some nice Pateks.

PP (the salon) is my AD so perhaps what I said isn’t particularly relevant in this case. I still do continue to believe that PP is not particularly attracted by celebrities though.


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[dauster]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

I really don't think the Sterns care about the collectors with a handful of Pateks in a watchbox sitting in a safe at home in the Bay Area. Just look in general at the industry ignoring the Bay Area completely. I love watches but I've got too much going on to fly to LA or Vegas just for a watch. Patek might care about those with collections in bank vaults who support their auction prices. The brand wants to be worn by celebrities at sporting events or worn by footballers moreso than the guy who started his own business and made a few bucks to enjoy for himself with a handful of Pateks in San Francisco. If you weren't born with it and are below the level of punting around with the Arnauds (a la zachattach, "buying from Thierry since I was 12 years old!") and summering in villas at Lake Como, I don't think you're going to get much from Geneva. That's just my impression of the brand, in general, but to each their own. Maybe if you extensively whore out your collection on social media and have lots of followers they might care? Unclear. Sad times for Shreve losing Lange and Patek in 2022. If you're considering the alternative, I checked out the Patek closet at Tiffany's in San Francisco and Alex told me it's a 5-10 year wait any Patek watch from Tiffany's.

you are probably correct but they lost Lange too ?

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by dauster

you are probably correct but they lost Lange too ?

Lange is going boutique only in the US. It's as if the McKinsey consultants are making the rounds armed with Powerpoints to take every brand onto the same strategy path as Rolex. Unclear how this ends because Rolex is Rolex and others they are not.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

Lange is going boutique only in the US. It's as if the McKinsey consultants are making the rounds armed with Powerpoints to take every brand onto the same strategy path as Rolex. Unclear how this ends because Rolex is Rolex and others they are not.

got it - well they only make like 5000 watcher per year maybe it makes sense

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

Lange is going boutique only in the US. It's as if the McKinsey consultants are making the rounds armed with Powerpoints to take every brand onto the same strategy path as Rolex. Unclear how this ends because Rolex is Rolex and others they are not.

Huh? Rolex is the very opposite to a vertical boutique only approach. They literally own one single point of sale (in Geneva), and that isn’t even publicly acknowledged.

Lange going vertical is a Richemont thing.

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by IBDOC

Huh? Rolex is the very opposite to a vertical boutique only approach. They literally own one single point of sale (in Geneva), and that isn’t even publicly acknowledged.

Lange going vertical is a Richemont thing.

What I meant is that the Point of Sale is becoming a standalone store, not a "shop-in-shop" multi-brand store with booths. The brands, starting with Rolex, are pushing the ADs to build out stores for their brand rather than display their brand adjacent to the displays of other brands (I believe the AD term is "shop in shop"). It is no longer cool for a brand to share space with other brands. Richemont is vertically integrating but what the consumer will notice is that brands are sold in standalone boutiques going forward, whether it's owned by the brand or Tourneau or Westime or Material Good or Fourtane etc etc etc. It was suggested earlier in this post that Shreve has lost the Patek brand because they did not do a remodel they were advised to do, presumably to create a dedicated Patek salon within the store.

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

What I meant is that the Point of Sale is becoming a standalone store, not a "shop-in-shop" multi-brand store with booths. The brands, starting with Rolex, are pushing the ADs to build out stores for their brand rather than display their brand adjacent to the displays of other brands (I believe the AD term is "shop in shop"). It is no longer cool for a brand to share space with other brands. Richemont is vertically integrating but what the consumer will notice is that brands are sold in standalone boutiques going forward, whether it's owned by the brand or Tourneau or Westime or Material Good or Fourtane etc etc etc. It was suggested earlier in this post that Shreve has lost the Patek brand because they did not do a remodel they were advised to do, presumably to create a dedicated Patek salon within the store.

Ah, fair enough. Although many of the most illustrious PP retailers still lack dedicated monobrand stores/store-in-stores.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

Lange is going boutique only in the US. It's as if the McKinsey consultants are making the rounds armed with Powerpoints to take every brand onto the same strategy path as Rolex. Unclear how this ends because Rolex is Rolex and others they are not.

It ends with McKinsey consultants billing enough to purchase any of the aforementioned watches .

If this I’d the result of then being advised to follow Rolex, though, it’s all wrong. Rolex has become a master of exerting near total control over retail distribution while shouldering neither the associated costs nor risks of actually being in retail. Can’t think of anyone else who’d mastered this on the same level, even being the watch industry.

[ChetBaker]

Would be pretty cool to have shared Vacheron and Lange boutiques. Richemont must have thought about that. Just these two, no other owned brands. Would have quite a bit of oulling power if you ask me.

[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

Would be pretty cool to have shared Vacheron and Lange boutiques. Richemont must have thought about that. Just these two, no other owned brands. Would have quite a bit of oulling power if you ask me.

In Zürich they had the brilliant idea of doing a Lange/Panerai boutique. Weirdest mix ever.

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by IBDOC

In Zürich they had the brilliant idea of doing a Lange/Panerai boutique. Weirdest mix ever.

that is...odd.

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by IBDOC

In Zürich they had the brilliant idea of doing a Lange/Panerai boutique. Weirdest mix ever.

Ah the good old days where you were asked to bundle a Lange in order to secure a Bronzo

[bay_area_kid]

Looks like more details are coming to light. I'm unable to post links so just read the latest Google Reviews for Shreve Palo Alto location.

Since more details are coming to light, I'd like to share even more from a few sources of mine, one of which came from a Shreve employee in the SF location.

It appears they got caught selling some Patek pieces in the grey market. One of those pieces found its way on 1stdibs and that's how Patek HQ found out.

One of their long time (10+ years tenure) employees from the Palo Alto location was blamed and let go back in April 2022 (see Yelp review for management's response laying blame on ex-employee for a bad review).

Was not clear if he was the one selling the pieces or if he was just a convenient scapegoat. He may be selling the pieces but under shadow approval from some higher ups.

And that's how you sever a 100+ year relationship with one of the most prestigious brands in horology.

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by bay_area_kid

Looks like more details are coming to light. I'm unable to post links so just read the latest Google Reviews for Shreve Palo Alto location.

Since more details are coming to light, I'd like to share even more from a few sources of mine, one of which came from a Shreve employee in the SF location.

It appears they got caught selling some Patek pieces in the grey market. One of those pieces found its way on 1stdibs and that's how Patek HQ found out.

One of their long time (10+ years tenure) employees from the Palo Alto location was blamed and let go back in April 2022 (see Yelp review for management's response laying blame on ex-employee for a bad review).

Was not clear if he was the one selling the pieces or if he was just a convenient scapegoat. He may be selling the pieces but under shadow approval from some higher ups.

And that's how you sever a 100+ year relationship with one of the most prestigious brands in horology.

If that is true I cannot imagine Rolex feel comfortable filling their safe.

[HMHM]

Originally Posted by bay_area_kid

Looks like more details are coming to light. I'm unable to post links so just read the latest Google Reviews for Shreve Palo Alto location.

Since more details are coming to light, I'd like to share even more from a few sources of mine, one of which came from a Shreve employee in the SF location.

It appears they got caught selling some Patek pieces in the grey market. One of those pieces found its way on 1stdibs and that's how Patek HQ found out.

One of their long time (10+ years tenure) employees from the Palo Alto location was blamed and let go back in April 2022 (see Yelp review for management's response laying blame on ex-employee for a bad review).

Was not clear if he was the one selling the pieces or if he was just a convenient scapegoat. He may be selling the pieces but under shadow approval from some higher ups.

And that's how you sever a 100+ year relationship with one of the most prestigious brands in horology.

I tried searching for the Google review but it’s so far only positive reviews…. I honestly will be quite surprised if selling back door is the reason they lost their dealership, especially when the Govbergs are literally running one of the biggest secondary watch market place yet still maintaining their Patek AD status.

[bay_area_kid]

Sort by "Lowest", it should be a one-start review left six days ago (by the time of this writing) by a person named "Nate Lamb".

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by HMHM

I tried searching for the Google review but it’s so far only positive reviews…. I honestly will be quite surprised if selling back door is the reason they lost their dealership, especially when the Govbergs are literally running one of the biggest secondary watch market place yet still maintaining their Patek AD status.

The 1-star review by "Nate Lamb" is right there when you sort by "Newest" and go to ~ 6 days ago (from 8/17). How much stock to put into one review with moderate detail and no feedback is a different question.

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by bay_area_kid

Sort by "Lowest", it should be a one-start review left six days ago (by the time of this writing) by a person named "Nate Lamb".

August join date, two reviews. Yeah seems genuine.

[classicalthunder]

Originally Posted by HMHM

I tried searching for the Google review but it’s so far only positive reviews…. I honestly will be quite surprised if selling back door is the reason they lost their dealership, especially when the Govbergs are literally running one of the biggest secondary watch market place yet still maintaining their Patek AD status.

I think it would depend on the model...I could see the hammer coming down if it was a couple of Nautiluss (Nautili?)

Also, re: Govberg/WatchBoxI wonder if they have an agreement with PP and Rolex where they share the serial numbers of the watches they are allocated via Govberg and the watches they sell via Watchbox in order to illustrate that they are not selling out of the back door at grey market prices. That seems to be the only reasonable control I can think of...

[jon_jon]

Many watch ADs sell through the gray market. Many watch brands do not care if the AD goes this route to clear inventory as they know even with steep discounts, some watch models are hard to sell. Many of the Richemont brand watches fall into this category.

As for Patek, they do care if an AD sell a lot of inventory through the gray market. If an AD sell one or two pieces, that is not a reason to shut down the AD. Sometimes an AD unknowingly sells to an individual who later flips these watches. This is bad for the AD and Patek can reach out to the AD and inquire about the flipper. I can see why ADs are becoming more careful selling to new customers because they can't always tell if they are selling to a flipper.

No one from Shreve or Patek will give an official statement as to why the relationship ended. But speculation that Shreve sold a lot to flippers or through the back door seem like a plausible story, whether it is true or not.

[HMHM]

Originally Posted by classicalthunder

I think it would depend on the model...I could see the hammer coming down if it was a couple of Nautiluss (Nautili?)

Also, re: Govberg/WatchBoxI wonder if they have an agreement with PP and Rolex where they share the serial numbers of the watches they are allocated via Govberg and the watches they sell via Watchbox in order to illustrate that they are not selling out of the back door at grey market prices. That seems to be the only reasonable control I can think of...

Probably they have some sort of agreement between themselves. But when Watchbox receives a fairly new Aquanaut or Nautilus that has been sold to them by a client, are they going to disclose the serial number of the watch to Patek Philippe to alert them of a flipper? I doubt that happens behind the scenes or else a lot of cans of worms will be opened.

All in all, flippers need to be weeded out. At the same time, dishonest ADs need to face punishment too. However, just going by a Google review by a random guy to reach judgement is a bit too far fetched.

[Coolcamden]

Originally Posted by HMHM

All in all, flippers need to be weeded out. At the same time, dishonest ADs need to face punishment too. However, just going by a Google review by a random guy to reach judgement is a bit too far fetched.

Agreed 100%

[Gebbeth]

I think to be fair to the manufacturers, it's virtually impossible to stop all flippers. Whether it's the bad actions of an AD or someone further down the chain that decides to sell their watch immediately to a flipper once they buy it from an AD, there are no rules or procedures that can completely tamp down on this market....except for the market.

If the market isn't hot, there will be no demand in the secondary markets, and I don't think market demand at the retail level is really truly tapering down for a company or companies that make so few watches to begin with (Rolex is a different animal, and different set of circumstances of course).

I think a boutique model is just simpler to deal with in my opinion. It standardizes the presentation, the retail prices, and hopefully also standardizes the wait list or reservation practices. It is also one throat to choke so to speak when it comes to sales, marketing, and servicing. It's turnkey for the buyer.

I'm not arguing that it would be fairer or fix the scarce supply, but it just makes more sense to me.

It would suck for existing ADs because if everyone goes this way, what can they sell? I think they would need to go micro....brands that can't go boutique. That's where I think ADs can distinguish themselves from each other....brand knowledge....brand support....brand relationships. There are too many ADs that are sitting there not needing to do or know anything because all they need to say is "sorry, no can do." It's frankly a waste of everyone's time.

But if you have a truly knowledgeable AD for a brand that doesn't have a wide installed knowledge base, then it's a win-win for both watchmaker and AD. They can truly sell. And the micro brand know has more breathing space to get its products sold.

Just my two cents.

Rolex is a separate animal altogether. Don't get me started with Rolex.

[classicalthunder]

Originally Posted by HMHM

Probably they have some sort of agreement between themselves. But when Watchbox receives a fairly new Aquanaut or Nautilus that has been sold to them by a client, are they going to disclose the serial number of the watch to Patek Philippe to alert them of a flipper? I doubt that happens behind the scenes or else a lot of cans of worms will be opened.

All in all, flippers need to be weeded out. At the same time, dishonest ADs need to face punishment too. However, just going by a Google review by a random guy to reach judgement is a bit too far fetched.

I think it would be easy enough to have an agreed upon independent 3rd party verify to see if there is any overlap between the Govberg allotted serials and Watchbox sold serials without sending all the Watchbox sales serials directly to PP. Seems a bit over the top, but when you consider the value of an Authorized Dealership for Govberg and the PP need to rule out foul play it would make sense.

Also, I bet there is an agreement on how new is too new to be resold...I think someone quoted that the FPJ boutique said it didn't really about re-selling after 3-4 years