Do not buy from SwissWatchExpo

[swatty]

Chill guys , its only 2 links

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by Tridor

If I'm buying a bracelet, I think choice "c" is best ... Watch is missing "x" number of links. That lets the buyer know he or she is not getting a complete bracelet.

How does that help someone? If I don't know how big an original bracelet is, how does knowing how many links it's missing help me?

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by swatty

chill guys , its only 2 links

no!

:)

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

I can VERY easily see this thread starting the same way if Mark bought a watch that said included 10 links and didn't put what the correlated to in actual inches.

Completely moot point and has nothing to do with the current debate.

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

Funny, I was just thinking the same thing

[Tridor]

Originally Posted by Etur

Please show me any online watch retailer that would say in the description that watch is missing x number of links.

I'm sure you'll find it if you look. Bottom line is this guy knew links were missing and didn't disclose it. Why is it so difficult for a seller to implement the highest business standard? This guy didn't, and his written defense of his unconscionable actions is laughable and pathetic.

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

Completely moot point and has nothing to do with the current debate.

yes it does, because the entire thread is founded on the fact that Mark assumed he was getting someone he didn't despite the fact the buyer layed it out appropriately.

FYI - Jacek has this Sub listed for sale. It says it comes with 11 links. Is 11 links big enough to fit my 8" wrist? How many links did the bracelet come with from the factory?

Another one. Jacket has the GMT with Jubilee bracelet. It has 20 links? Is that big enough for my wrist? Is it missing any?

Moreover, here is an Exp II with another Oyster bracelet but this has 13 links. Does this mean the Sub above is missing two links, since it only has 11 compared to this one's 13?

[Tridor]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

How does that help someone? If I don't know how big an original bracelet is, how does knowing how many links it's missing help me?

Because it alerts the buyer that something is missing, and to then make further inquiry regarding that issue. If the buyer fails to inquire further, then he must suffer the consequences.

[Zirotti]

Damn! This one has 14! But wait, was 15 links original from Rolex? Hmm. How do I know if this fits my wrist?

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by Tridor

I'm sure you'll find it if you look. Bottom line is this guy knew links were missing and didn't disclose it. Why is it so difficult for a seller to implement the highest business standard? This guy didn't, and his written defense of his unconscionable actions is laughable and pathetic.

I just posted FOUR examples out of hundreds from some of the BEST sellers on the web that reside right here on this awesome forum. NONE disclose if the watch is missing links and they ALL have different number of links listed.

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

yes it does, because the entire thread is founded on the fact that Mark assumed he was getting someone he didn't despite the fact the buyer layed it out appropriately.

FYI - Jacek has this Sub listed for sale. It says it comes with 11 links. Is 11 links big enough to fit my 8" wrist? How many links did the bracelet come with from the factory?

Another one. Jacket has the GMT with Jubilee bracelet. It has 20 links? Is that big enough for my wrist? Is it missing any?

Moreover, here is an Exp II with another Oyster bracelet but this has 13 links. Does this mean the Sub above is missing two links, since it only has 11 compared to this one's 13?

When people start stating opinion as fact and combining arguments to make their case as if what they say actually happened, it's time for me to go to bed.

[Tridor]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

I just posted FOUR examples out of hundreds from some of the BEST sellers on the web that reside right here on this awesome forum. NONE disclose if the watch is missing links and they ALL have different number of links listed.

So, who says that's good practice, either? However, I've read of several instances where trusted TRF sellers have made the customer happy if there was a misunderstanding. Plainly, that did not happen here.

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

When people start stating opinion as fact and combining arguments to make their case as if what they actually happened, it's time for me to go to bed.

Fantastic response to 4 factual proofs of evidence. Good night sir.

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by Tridor

So, who says that's good practice, either? However, I've read of several instances where trusted TRF sellers have made the customer happy if there was a misunderstanding. Plainly, that did not happen here.

No, what happens is people do this:

Potential Buyer: Hey Seller, I noticed you said the watch includes 11 links. Will that fit my 8" wrist?
Seller: No it won't. It will fit up to a 7.5" wrist.
Potential Buyer: Ok, thanks.

What DOESN'T happen is this:

Potential Buyer: hey I noticed that in the ad the watch pictured has 11 links and will fit up to an 7.5" wrist. Does this also mean there are two links that aren't shown or described will also come with the watch?
Seller: No. What is pictured in the ad is exactly what you will receive.

Do you want to know why? Because most people can look at pictures and count how many links are on a bracelet.

If sellers made routine habits of not delivering what is pictured or what they described, they wouldn't be around long. The buyer needs to accept SOME responsibility for assuming what wasn't included nor pictured in advertisement is not going to be included.

[Tridor]

Look, this issue has been beaten to death. The good news is that we now know about this guy and can avoid him. If anyone chooses to purchase from him after having read this thread, then they asked for anything bad they may have received, both in materials and customer treatment.

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by Tridor

Look, this issue has been beaten to death. The good news is that we now know about this guy and can avoid him. If anyone chooses to purchase from him after having read this thread, then they asked for anything bad they may have received, both in materials and customer treatment.

Agreed. In addition, I am now approximately 30 post closer to 1000 as a result of this thread :)

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

Fantastic response to 4 factual proofs of evidence. Good night sir.

Look Jason, your posts don't state any facts only your opinion on their information. I'm stopping cause your foaming at the mouth and I'm not getting disciplined by a mod for stating, as you've already put it, a head banging argument, you haven't swayed me even slightly, and you could care what I say so drop it, at least as far as I'm concerned.

[Tridor]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

Agreed. In addition, I am now approximately 30 post closer to 1000 as a result of this thread :)

Jason ... While it's plain that we disagree on this thread, I have one thing to say about your post count ... cool! ;-)

[Z-Sub]

From a seller's stand point, I would not expect a buyer to count the links. As a buyer, I didn't count the links either until I had an issue. Some links maybe hidden inside the clasp and not readily seen. Now I try to remember to ask.

Asking the seller to disclose how many links are missing is reasonable and fair.

I don't think SwissWatchExpo is in the business to con people but the service and response from Jake was enough to steer me away from them. It's just a matter of customer service and I'm sure they have access to many extra links that they can use to make a customer happy. I would be satisfied with one link and if that would ever happen, I think the seller has done well.

[handsfull]

Caveat Emptor = it was invented for a reason.

It's a good lesson to anyone purchasing anything on the net/forum....STUDY the pics carefully. After you've done that, look at the pics again. Then one more time. Assume nothing. Ask questions for clarity. FWIW: I never (ever) buy anything from anyone that charges any fee for returns (sans the shipping back to the seller).

It's the responsibility of the seller to list the item with integrity and honesty....Conversely, it's the responsibility of the buyer to pay attention to detail when purchasing.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by handsfull

Caveat Emptor = it was invented for a reason.

It's a good lesson to anyone purchasing anything on the net/forum....STUDY the pics carefully. After you've done that, look at the pics again. Then one more time. Assume nothing. Ask questions for clarity. FWIW: I never (ever) buy anything from anyone that charges any fee for returns (sans the shipping back to the seller).

It's the responsibility of the seller to list the item with integrity and honesty....Conversely, it's the responsibility of the buyer to pay attention to detail when purchasing.

Don't shoot the messenger.

I'm gonna give you to the count of 10, to get your ugly, yella, no-good keister off my property till I pump your guts full of lead!

[2th Dr]

Originally Posted by hjk3

Just my 2 links, er, cents. I have bought and sold many used Rolex watches over the years and only expect the seller to deliver the watch EXACTLY as pictured in their ad, be it a TRF seller or a internet shop. To expect anything else shows an unreasonable desire to get something for nothing. The watch is clearly depicted with the number of links - why would you demand anything else?

I have bought and sold many watches from Jake at Swiss Watch Expo and his business before that. He has always been completely honest and fair in EVERY transaction I have had with him. I will definitely trust him again in the future when purchasing high end Rolex and Patek pieces.

Life is too short to get so upset over something where you clearly got what you paid for.

Originally Posted by Etur

Full disclosure:
I am living in Atlanta
I am Russian
I have known Jake for more than 25 years

However with all this “bad background” with all due respect to you Mark, I do not understand why you are demanding something that you did not pay for? The watch was advertised to fit 7 1/2 wrist and was priced accordingly.

This is your choice to purchase this watch or not for the advertized price.

Also, your own watch that was for sale, also has 11 links and you probably been wearing it comfortably, so why the same number of links on Jakes watch barely fit you?

Look, I am NOT the kind of guy to want something for nothing. I have bought several watches from Edward Arthur, theken, lawrenceb, alex collector, 1966-oyster, prismresearch, outtatime, just to name a few. Ask ANY of them if I asked for more after the sale. On the contrary, ask 1966-oyster and outtatime, the last two guys I bought from, how that transaction proceeded AFTER I bought and received the watch they sold me. (Jon, Kevin, go ahead and tell them). The Tudor I got from Jon only had 2 removable links. Should it have come with more? I don't know. Do I care? NO! I got what I thought was such a great deal on a watch that looks brand new that it doesn't matter to me! Similarly, the 43 year old Air-King I got from Kevin looks brand new and I feel I got a great deal from him as well. It originally came with an Oyster bracelet but he sold it to me with a strap. Do I care that I didn't get the Oyster with it? NO! Because I got what I thought was a good deal on it. I think $6600 for a Rootbeer GMT is a little pricey, even if it came with all the links, but when it's missing 2 links, then it's overpriced. I'm NOT looking for handouts. I just want what I think is fair, and Jake is just playing with semantics, both on his website and his explanation here.

[gimpex]

A picture of a dead horse lying on its side with a man standing next to it , still whipping it comes to mind .....




Unfortunately cannot ( don't know how ) to post pics from the Ipad

[1966-Oyster]

Admittedly I only read through about 4 pages of this thread. After the seller signed in and posted his statement I couldn't take anymore nonsense.

Mark purchased a Rolex from me, the transaction was flawless. I disclosed everything known about the watch before the sale. Had there been even the slightest issue it would have been taken care of immediately.

Any seller with integrity always follows through with what is the right thing to do, especially when working in an industry selling fine vintage watches. The seller should have either mailed out the links at no cost or refunded the sale without any questions asked. Even the slightest push-back of the seller shows that they are not worthy of anyone's business. To act in a rude fashion only magnifies the sellers total lack of business sense and short term financial outlook.

SwisWatchExpo sounds like its held together by shady and shoddy selling tricks that empower the seller and trap the buyer. That strategy never works long term. In fact I hope this thread alone will cost then many many thousands of dollars. Sorry but even the name of the business seems to have a slight odor to it.

Everyone is different and we all have different levels of tolerance but there is simply no way I could keep/wear this Rolex without being reminded of how the seller put a black eye on the whole experience. If it were me I would return it and purchase another Rolex when one becomes available. The seller in this case does not deserve the sale. To make statements as ridiculous as "the buyer should count the links" is a tactic fit for the selling of 20 year old used cars.

I hope you are able to get your refund Mark. You ought to ensure they stand by their paper thin 100% guarantee. In fact if you choose I know you will get the refund as you should.

Hope this all works out for your long term benefit.

Kevin

[mailman]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

I'm gonna give you to the count of 10, to get your ugly, yella, no-good keister off my property till I pump your guts full of lead!

And I'm gonna tell you that movie line or not, it is not appropriate to talk to another member like this under the circumstances on TRF. Take six for that

[Pep04]

Originally Posted by Zirotti

yes it does, because the entire thread is founded on the fact that Mark assumed he was getting someone he didn't despite the fact the buyer layed it out appropriately.

FYI - Jacek has this Sub listed for sale. It says it comes with 11 links. Is 11 links big enough to fit my 8" wrist? How many links did the bracelet come with from the factory?

Another one. Jacket has the GMT with Jubilee bracelet. It has 20 links? Is that big enough for my wrist? Is it missing any?

Moreover, here is an Exp II with another Oyster bracelet but this has 13 links. Does this mean the Sub above is missing two links, since it only has 11 compared to this one's 13?

By your examples you MUST agree that a trusted seller DISCLOSES exactly how many links and doesn't leave to the buyer to count links on a screen?


I for one, have no idea what size my wrist is and couldn't care less. If were to buy a watch that said "X" amount of links, I would count the ones on my watch and see if it'll fit. DISCLOSURE IS KEY!!!!
I

[brian8121]

I'll just chime in and say that in my dealings with TRF members (DavidSW, Jacek, Yankeefist) and pre-owned/vintage watch shops, I've never expected them to list "missing links" - in fact I don't think I've ever bought a watch with a listing that stated the number of "links missing." I'm in agreement with Zirotti (Jason) on one thing: I don't believe that telling a potential buyer that does not have encyclopedic knowledge of Rolex bracelets (e.g. >98-99% of us) how many links are included (or not included) is very helpful when it comes to sizing. More information is always better, so if the link count is included great.

I also think that if a watch is used (or new for that matter), it is often difficult to know how many links came with the watch in the first place. I suppose it can be argued that if you're business is selling watches, you should know. However, I wouldn't expect the average TRFer to know. And, as mentioned above, I don't know how useful that info would be.

All that said, I DO prefer that sellers list approximate wrist size of the bracelet - and if that's not listed, it's up to the buyer to ask. I also expect the size listed to be correct. So if Mark's (2th DR) wrist is 7.25 inches and the bracelet doesn't fit (despite being listed as 7.5 inches), then that needs to be corrected immediately and I think that makes link count an issue only because it doesn't fit as advertised. I also think that - as it has been mentioned - the seller handled this particularly poorly from a customer service standpoint.

I do think this thread is helpful though - if this doesn't demonstrate to newbies who are following it the importance of due diligence on bracelets (link count, bracelet sizing, missing links, etc) when buying used and buying the seller, I don't know what will.

Good luck Mark, hope this gets resolved.

[Andad]

Good post Brian.

[Welshwatchman]

This thread has already attracted points from the bag-o-points so it's time to chill down a couple of degrees.

I always saw both side of the situation and for myself would have counted the links, compared them to my watches AND measured my own wrist for good accord.

I would have (and had) negotiated an extra link free/low price to close the deal.

HOWEVER - The seller states this and it makes all the difference :

1. 100% Satisfaction Guarantee

Whether you're buying from us, trading in, or selling an old favorite to us, you must be 100% satisfied with your experience. If at any time you aren't, we want to know about it, and we'll do everything within our power to make it right.

Lawyers here will tell you that this statement is a very bold one. Everything in our power involves moving heaven and earth, as did NOT happen here.

Perhaps Mark is a slightly more demanding customer than the next, at least in this instance (as can be said from plenty of hassle free sales/trades elsewhere) but his is the customer to whom the statement is being offered.

As I said a couple of thousand years ago, why the seller and his :

1. 100% Satisfaction Guarantee

Whether you're buying from us, trading in, or selling an old favorite to us, you must be 100% satisfied with your experience. If at any time you aren't, we want to know about it, and we'll do everything within our power to make it right.

4.9/5 Google and Ekomi ratings, testimonials and the rest

1 link in the post would have sorted this eons ago.

(Though Mark could have sent it back for a refund too.)

[Welshwatchman]

Also we have had missing-links on the forum previously.

We banned their butts.