Tipping has gotten out of hand (USA)

[77T]

Originally Posted by 904VT

Have increased wages and still allow tip. The tip for service should be expressed as a % and should have nothing to do with a restaurant's margins. It's just them not paying greater than minimum wage because they don't have to.

A solution, require all restaurants/service industry to provide all employees tenured 6 months or more a retirement savings account with contribution matching (dollar for dollar up to full hourly rate) if they choose to pay their employees less than 2x min national wage levels.



I think this already happens with takeout many places with the addition of the fixed takeout fee some restaurants charge. It's just not added on a per menu item basis so not seen the same way. It incentives customers to increase the size/quantity of their takeout order to make the restaurant's time worth the delivery. Ideally they're paying their employees a higher wage with increased revenue. I'm sure not always the case though.

Good ideas. However a low chance of implementation.

If restaurant owners raised wages/benefits they must raise prices to earn their NPM.


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[330ci]

Originally Posted by austinp

Wasn’t Sears and JC Pennys doing it before Walmart? I grew up in California and didn’t see Walmart’s till the 90s.


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I mean sears came from Roebuck and Co which was a mail order catologue started in the 1800s, filled with primarily American made goods. Even as a 90s child I lived to see the decline of craftsman which was all made in America up until that point. Furthurmore hey weren't sourcing the cheapest products from China, they were marketing multiple brands at one location easing the customers job of searching through competitors. When you could look at a GE Appliance next to a Kenmore, next to a LG, next to a Samsung, Next to a whirlpool, this encouraged competition amongst brands. Once wal mart entered the game, they sourced all these garbage hisense and hungshuang brands to make products for a pittance, then went to the big box brands and said "hey, your products are too expensive, cheapen them up so we can mass produce them and appear to offer a better deal and then you can compete with the garbage we brought over" so meanwhile wal mart is selling a non comparable LG or Samsung TV thats the same size as Sears' or Best Buy, or whatever other actual retailers they had selling their retail products creating unfair competition amongst goods under the same brand. Same goes for dishwashers, microwaves, etc.

[austinp]

Originally Posted by 330ci

I mean sears came from Roebuck and Co which was a mail order catologue started in the 1800s, filled with primarily American made goods. Even as a 90s child I lived to see the decline of craftsman which was all made in America up until that point. Furthurmore hey weren't sourcing the cheapest products from China, they were marketing multiple brands at one location easing the customers job of searching through competitors. When you could look at a GE Appliance next to a Kenmore, next to a LG, next to a Samsung, Next to a whirlpool, this encouraged competition amongst brands. Once wal mart entered the game, they sourced all these garbage hisense and hungshuang brands to make products for a pittance, then went to the big box brands and said "hey, your products are too expensive, cheapen them up so we can mass produce them and appear to offer a better deal and then you can compete with the garbage we brought over" so meanwhile wal mart is selling a non comparable LG or Samsung TV thats the same size as Sears' or Best Buy, or whatever other actual retailers they had selling their retail products creating unfair competition amongst goods under the same brand. Same goes for dishwashers, microwaves, etc.

I agree that all that has happened. I just think the blame should be wider spread than just Walmart.


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[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Don't have to check my orders. They either recognize my name or my face when I am in line to pick it up. They know I treat them right by tipping. So, they treat me right by checking my order. If a new person is at the checkout and forgets, a waiter will run up and check my order.

But if I did not tip, I would think they would remember that also. And I probably would check my order.

Cause and effect?

Or, if I want to look at it from a strictly cost benefit analysis, I can run the math.

1. My hourly rate is a hell of lot more than many of these people make in a week. And a tip costs me a lot less than the value of the lost time of having to check my order and send it back to the kitchen.

2. I make more from 1 piece of business that is referred to me by a person who remembers that I treat them right, than I will keep in my pocket by stiffing restaurant staff. Or business the the owner refers to me because he remembers me in a good way because I treat his establishment with respect. Indeed, after you got me thinking, I just realized that many years ago a Pizza wait staff (whom I tipped), referred me a case. And my fee paid for a hell of a lot of Pizza with tips. And the owner of the establishment also referred business to me.

3. And reputation can be as important as competence. I would hate to poll a jury after loosing a big case and find that the the cashier who was sitting on the jury told the rest of the jury that I was big shot jerk with an expensive watch who would not tip and she would not believe anything I said.

But I have to tell you that I never ran these numbers. I just enjoy my meal a lot more after picking it up from people who treat me right and are happy to see me walk through the door.

I quoted Tricolor66 who specifically said he hates when he tips on a to go order and finds out later the order was wrong.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but with regard to item #1, that makes no sense. Your hourly rate has absolutely zero to do with someone else's wage. Further if an establishment gets your order 100% of the time, good for you.

With regard to item #3, unless you're living in Mayberry, the odds of polling a jury after you've have direct contact with is highly unlikely. The probability of a person on that jury having direct contact with you and actually noticing the watch on your wrist when you picked up a chicken parm order a few years ago are even less likely. Finally, what are you doing losing a case counselor?? Afterall you tipped the to go counter person and they told everyone else on the jury what a wonderful guy you were and how they should find in your favor!

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

With regard to item #3, unless you're living in Mayberry,

Hey don't be dissin' Mayberry.

You just may get a visit from Andy or Barney, and maybe Aunt Bea. (if she's not busy makin' pies)

[Letsgodiving]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

I quoted Tricolor66 who specifically said he hates when he tips on a to go order and finds out later the order was wrong.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but with regard to item #1, that makes no sense. Your hourly rate has absolutely zero to do with someone else's wage. Further if an establishment gets your order 100% of the time, good for you.

With regard to item #3, unless you're living in Mayberry, the odds of polling a jury after you've have direct contact with is highly unlikely. The probability of a person on that jury having direct contact with you and actually noticing the watch on your wrist when you picked up a chicken parm order a few years ago are even less likely. Finally, what are you doing losing a case counselor?? Afterall you tipped the to go counter person and they told everyone else on the jury what a wonderful guy you were and how they should find in your favor!

Interestingly, I believe he does in fact live in Mayberry.

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by Letsgodiving

Interestingly, I believe he does in fact live in Mayberry.

Close to Mayberry. What Andy called Mt. Pilot.

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by Letsgodiving

Interestingly, I believe he does in fact live in Mayberry.

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Close to Mayberry. What Andy called Mt. Pilot.

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

I

With regard to item #3, unless you're living in Mayberry, the odds of polling a jury after you've have direct contact with is highly unlikely. The probability of a person on that jury having direct contact with you and actually noticing the watch on your wrist when you picked up a chicken parm order a few years ago are even less likely.

MMM. Close to Mayberry. And in fact the Pizza places I tip at are in Mayberry and Mt. Pilot. Don't know if they noticed my sub. But have definitely had members of the jury pool who knew me. Indeed, My spouse, who is also an attorney drew her sister once. I think you will find similar situations in rural communities across the country.

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by DLRIDES

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

Finally, what are you doing losing a case counselor??

Credit for close reading. And fair question.

Happens to the best and the worst of us. Does not make it any easier to swallow. But it does happen.

[Nicolamilton]

It's part of your culture, as you may know in Europe is very different. We expect that everything is included in the price, and tips are much lower or inexistent.

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[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Credit for close reading. And fair question.

Happens to the best and the worst of us. Does not make it any easier to swallow. But it does happen.

LOL... after analyzing your post, jury polling and location, I thought you might be in a very small town. I'm going to assume your wife's sister was excluded from jury selection, but you never know with such small pools in Mayberry.

In your case, definitely tip 30% on takeout to hedge any future jury decisions!

Have a great weekend!

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

LOL... after analyzing your post, jury polling and location, I thought you might be in a very small town. I'm going to assume your wife's sister was excluded from jury selection, but you never know with such small pools in Mayberry.

In your case, definitely tip 30% on takeout to hedge any future jury decisions!

Have a great weekend!

Yes, sister was excluded. But you are right about never knowing in small pools.

Stay safe my friend.

[Speedbird-1]

Mayberry?

[Brew]

Originally Posted by Speedbird-1

Mayberry?

[904VT]

Originally Posted by 77T

Good ideas. However a low chance of implementation.

If restaurant owners raised wages/benefits they must raise prices to earn their NPM.


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I agree zero chance of implementation because we more broadly don’t want to truly find a solution. In theory (if everyone is filing their cash earnings) the price before or after tip makes no difference to the consumer if you lower tips and move to menu prices increasing to offset. End bill to the consumer should be the same.

For the above we’ve already seen massive food inflation largely ignored and driven by spending under the guise of supply chain limitations. Any inflation now is incorrectly assumed by markets to be supply chain focused and transitory. If we really cared about workers my suggestion above would help increase their retirement savings and get started saving at an earlier age. Some problems though we wish not to solve for whatever reason.

[Blansky]

I think the bottom line on this is that in the US we're never going to change the corporate screw job on wait staff BUT outrage at the fact that they're now adding people to the trough can be nipped in the bud.

Simply don't add tips to the added BS that they are encouraging with their ease of computer checkout etc etc. for all the new low paying jobs they're trying to guilt trip us into paying.

Believe me, they know what they're doing and monitoring to see if it's working. "Oh good, now we don't have to pay anyone, the gullible public will do it for us."

I think a lot of people naively think these things happen organically but I think is pretty planned out and now they are testing the waters. They have departments who's job it is to come up with ways to maximize profits and obviously lowering wages is one of the ways.

I do know what I'm talking about because I have an MBA from Trump University.

Well not really, but when my wife was getting her MBA (she's worked for 2 fortune 500s) I worked along side her and wrote the papers and participated in some of the discussions and wrote a thesis on...... Corporations.

[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by Brew

Got it...thanks!

[Moondoggy]

Pretty simple, just increase the minimum wage and spread the love around a little more evenly, or just give the waitress/waiter a decent dollar and do a runner..

[pickettt]

I think what no one has touched on is payroll taxes. I wouldn’t know because apparently I’ve never had a “tip worthy” job and I pay my employees competitive compensation for every moment they work. Is there a restaurant owner or administrator here that can chime in?

[austinp]

Originally Posted by Moondoggy

Pretty simple, just increase the minimum wage and spread the love around a little more evenly, or just give the waitress/waiter a decent dollar and do a runner..

What would that minimum wage be? I waited tables back in the 90s and made 20$-35$ per hour in tips.


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[Blansky]

Originally Posted by austinp

What would that minimum wage be? I waited tables back in the 90s and made 20$-35$ per hour in tips.

That's a tough call. Above my pay grade.

I knew people that worked in high end restaurants that made a lot of money working 5-11 ish.

Of course single mom's couldn't do that, so while they both may be wait staff, completely different circumstances.

[austinp]

Originally Posted by Blansky

That's a tough call. Above my pay grade.

I knew people that worked in high end restaurants that made a lot of money working 5-11 ish.

Of course single mom's couldn't do that, so while they both may be wait staff, completely different circumstances.

There were a few single moms I worked with that were also going to school. It’s not easy but life is tough sometimes. There are ways to overcome. Waiting tables was actually a good job for a young mom to maximize wage vs time. The restaurant and bar industry has a lot of single moms working.


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[Blansky]

Originally Posted by austinp

There were a few single moms I worked with that were also going to school. It’s not easy but life is tough sometimes. There are ways to overcome. Waiting tables was actually a good job for a young mom to maximize wage vs time. The restaurant and bar industry has a lot of single moms working.

I worked in a bar/restaurant as a bouncer for 4 years and I'm well aware who works there. And the fact that a single mom (which obviously means with kids) is going to find it difficult working the only times their kids are home.

So your "life is tough sometimes" seems pretty callous.

[austinp]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I worked in a bar/restaurant as a bouncer for 4 years and I'm well aware who works there. And the fact that a single mom (which obviously means with kids) is going to find it difficult working the only times their kids are home.

So your "life is tough sometimes" seems pretty callous.

Certainly it’s not a revelation to you that being a single mom is tough. The particular restaurant I worked at was like most, a large family of young misfits. The moms used the other workers for baby sitters on their off days. My sister was one of those moms. The young baby’s and toddlers were always around restaurant. I have very good memories of those time. I’ll maintain that it’s a good job for young moms. You may have a different opinion and that’s fine.


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[Sunny Arizona]

I saw the same thing recently so I asked the kid at the counter if the owner distributes the tips to staff evenly. He just shook his head no and said the "register" gets all tips. My daughter told me that's code for the owner keeps them.

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

Or should I say, ASKING for tips has gotten out of hand.
Last evening I drove to one of the local pizza places to pick up a pizza to go. Upon checkout I was instructed to insert my card and follow the prompts.
The white screen showed 3 blue buttons: 15% tip, 20% tip, Other amount.
Way at the bottom in light gray with white lettering was a button to leave no tip. If the lady at the counter hadn't mentioned it I wouldn't have found it at all (I'm colorblind).
Now I understand tipping when the server brings your food to the table and I always tip the driver who delivers food to my doorstep (even though there's already an additional delivery fee added to the bill) but why am I expected (nearly tricked) into tipping the person who simply cashes me out at the register?
It's not just the pizza place either. The doggy daycare where I sometimes bring my pup on rainy days for exercise has the same practice. For her I always bring cash and never ask for change.
It just seems like a constant money grab everywhere you go and I don't like being tricked or pressured.
For the life of me I'll never understand why the obligation to support the staff is put on the consumer and not on the business owners that hired them in the first place.
Rant over.

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by austinp

What would that minimum wage be? I waited tables back in the 90s and made 20$-35$ per hour in tips.


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the load, increase minimum wage to $20 p/h owner takes a bit of a hit customers pays a bit more. Win-win. It has been attempted in the past and business owners revolted saying they will sack employees and use machines etc.

[904VT]

Originally Posted by Moondoggy

the load, increase minimum wage to $20 p/h owner takes a bit of a hit customers pays a bit more. Win-win. It has been attempted in the past and business owners revolted saying they will sack employees and use machines etc.

McDonalds tried that and they provide the absolute worst service environment I've ever experienced. Now the customer has to put in the order at some locations in their glitchy self-order systems. Cashier staff is reduced, but they just stand there and watch now. So average franchise probably moved from 3 working cashiers at a time to a customer entered order system that 2 former cashiers stand around watching.

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by Moondoggy

the load, increase minimum wage to $20 p/h owner takes a bit of a hit customers pays a bit more. Win-win. It has been attempted in the past and business owners revolted saying they will sack employees and use machines etc.

I wouldn't want anyone making minimum wage serving my food. I like motivated people. I have no problem tipping.

Also, I always like to tip young people, hopefully motivates them.